Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2445719
02/03/18 05:10 PM
02/03/18 05:10 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Need more specifics about the combo.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2445748
02/03/18 06:06 PM
02/03/18 06:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
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2264PLY
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Hedman 1 3/4 primary tube, Holley list 4780 Performer RPM intake 906 heads KB flat top pistons stock dist. with electronic conversion.Currently have 1 Mr Gasket spring in the dist. At idle its at full advance 34 degrees. I'm looking for someone who's had a similar experience and what changes remedied the situation. Certainly welcome thoughts and opinions.
Last edited by 2264PLY; 02/03/18 06:13 PM.
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2445752
02/03/18 06:13 PM
02/03/18 06:13 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Of you have an adjustable valvetrain, I'd strongly suggest going to a solid cam.
If that's not an option, and you're going to stick with a hyd...... I'd look at taking 20-25deg @.050 out if it. Something along the lines of a Comp XE274 or XE275HL.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2445766
02/03/18 06:30 PM
02/03/18 06:30 PM
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2264PLY
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Currently stock rockers. A close friend with similar 440 with a stick difference being rpm heads roller rockers with the XE275HL. I didn't ride in his car but we were talking about it and he expressed the same feelings. I definitely respect his opinion.His car did have a 3.91 gear.His engine was also professionally built. He pulled the engine out of his '71 300 which was an automatic and put it in a "69 B body.He felt the motor definitely worked better in front of the automatic. I was thinking the same way you are about the duration. After talking with him I started to wonder about that. Going to a solid cam makes sense.
Last edited by 2264PLY; 02/03/18 06:33 PM.
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2445807
02/03/18 07:20 PM
02/03/18 07:20 PM
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John_Kunkel
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IMHO, too much cam and too big of a carb for good throttle response.
If you want really snappy throttle response, a carb with small bores will give it.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2445857
02/03/18 08:53 PM
02/03/18 08:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Blusmbl
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Could also try advancing the current cam a few degrees if you don't have piston to valve clearance issues.
I ran a Mopar .509 4* advanced in a low compression 440 stick car, even occasionally running it with 2.76's it wasn't objectionably bad.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2445880
02/03/18 09:44 PM
02/03/18 09:44 PM
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polyspheric
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Assuming you want to keep your axle? Lighter flywheel 3.09:1 1st gear
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2446074
02/04/18 05:19 AM
02/04/18 05:19 AM
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Cab_Burge
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There are a bunch of things that can make a motor not accelerate well like to rich at part throttle, valve lifters with not enough preload or to much preload, degreeing the cam off of the exhaust lifter instead of the intake lifter , not enough advance at low RPM on the ignition timing, to cold on the heat range on the spark plugs and probably some others that aren't coming to mind right now How tall are your rear tires now? Is your NP 833 a 2.65 low gear set or is it the later 2.2? low gear set As already suggested using a lower first gear ratio like the stock 3.09 low gear set makes a bunch of difference on the street Been there done that years ago when the early A body trans. where plentiful in our local SO CA junk yards I put one of those gear sets in a friend of mines 1970 Duster 340 4 speed street race car that ended up with a set of 5.57 rear gears in the Dana 60 , you needed to be on your game on the first three gear changes in that rascal It flat hooked and book with a set of 13x30x15 drag slicks on a set of 12 inch rims It showed a bunch of BB Chevy the tail lights on lots of occasions
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/04/18 05:26 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2446093
02/04/18 10:44 AM
02/04/18 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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gregsdart
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Calculate the cranking compression to see how much that cam is hurting you for starters. Best off idle will be helped a great deal by coming up with a combo of cam, compression, and cam installed centerline that will be as high as the fuel you use can take.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2446099
02/04/18 10:55 AM
02/04/18 10:55 AM
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BSB67
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What is your cylinder pressure? Get that first so we know what your working with.
My friend's 68 4 speed GTX w/ 3.54 drove like it was on ice in 1st gear. Small cam, fairly low cylinder pressure, good factory heads, factory spreadbore intake and matching carb. Car was a blast on the street. That being said, it really wasn't that fast at the track, so don't confuse the two, as they may or may not be the same thing.
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2446373
02/04/18 05:56 PM
02/04/18 05:56 PM
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There are a bunch of things that can make a motor not accelerate well like to rich at part throttle, valve lifters with not enough preload or to much preload, degreeing the cam off of the exhaust lifter instead of the intake lifter , not enough advance at low RPM on the ignition timing, to cold on the heat range on the spark plugs and probably some others that aren't coming to mind right now How tall are your rear tires now? Is your NP 833 a 2.65 low gear set or is it the later 2.2? low gear set As already suggested using a lower first gear ratio like the stock 3.09 low gear set makes a bunch of difference on the street Been there done that years ago when the early A body trans. where plentiful in our local SO CA junk yards I put one of those gear sets in a friend of mines 1970 Duster 340 4 speed street race car that ended up with a set of 5.57 rear gears in the Dana 60 , you needed to be on your game on the first three gear changes in that rascal It flat hooked anjd book with a set of 13x30x15 drag slicks on a set of 12 inch rims It showed a bunch of BB Chevy the tail lights on lots of occasions The 70 and later 4 speeds has a 2.44 first.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: madscientist]
#2446385
02/04/18 06:24 PM
02/04/18 06:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Cab_Burge
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The 70 and later 4 speeds has a 2.44 first. [/quote] Not true Only the T/A and AAR Cuda 4 speed cars had the close ratio stock in 1970, all 1971 and later 4 speed cars had them until Corporate decided to go to the NP833 O.D. trannys in what ever year that was
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/04/18 06:24 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2446424
02/04/18 07:27 PM
02/04/18 07:27 PM
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The 70 and later 4 speeds has a 2.44 first. Not true Only the T/A and AAR Cuda 4 speed cars had the close ratio stock in 1970, all 1971 and later 4 speed cars had them until Corporate decided to go to the NP833 O.D. trannys in what ever year that was [/quote] My point is there never was a 2.2 first gear 833. Ever. Look at what I quoted.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2446528
02/04/18 09:56 PM
02/04/18 09:56 PM
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SomeCarGuy
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Bolt on stockish street car with a raceish cam. Seems straight forward and predictable to me. Who put that cam in and why? I didn’t see porting mentioned and if you are expecting to turn higher rpm with a cam like that I’d think you’d use 1 7/8 headers. Just looks like a mismatched cam and nothing more. I wouldn’t bother advancing that one.
I want my fair share
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2446537
02/04/18 10:15 PM
02/04/18 10:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
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RTSrunner
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I haven't checked the cranking compression.The rear tire is a 275/60/R15.The trans is an older 18 spline which I believe has the original 1st gear in it. I'm guilty of tuning it like my automatics.The post has opened up my mind a little more. I just have to do the homework. A 275/60/15 is a tall tire,try a 295/50/15 it will be a bit shorter and help gearing but you may need wider wheels. I agree on checking cranking compression and either advancing the cam if possible or a milder stick as suggested.
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: RTSrunner]
#2446646
02/05/18 02:00 AM
02/05/18 02:00 AM
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Pacnorthcuda
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I haven't checked the cranking compression.The rear tire is a 275/60/R15.The trans is an older 18 spline which I believe has the original 1st gear in it. I'm guilty of tuning it like my automatics.The post has opened up my mind a little more. I just have to do the homework. A 275/60/15 is a tall tire,try a 295/50/15 it will be a bit shorter and help gearing but you may need wider wheels. I agree on checking cranking compression and either advancing the cam if possible or a milder stick as suggested. Yea, ditch your wheels and tires to go from 275/60's to 295/50's. Good Lord.
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#2446682
02/05/18 03:04 AM
02/05/18 03:04 AM
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I haven't checked the cranking compression.The rear tire is a 275/60/R15.The trans is an older 18 spline which I believe has the original 1st gear in it. I'm guilty of tuning it like my automatics.The post has opened up my mind a little more. I just have to do the homework. A 275/60/15 is a tall tire,try a 295/50/15 it will be a bit shorter and help gearing but you may need wider wheels. I agree on checking cranking compression and either advancing the cam if possible or a milder stick as suggested. Yea, ditch your wheels and tires to go from 275/60's to 295/50's. Good Lord. A shorter tire was my main point from a gearing aspect,but you probably knew that
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2446961
02/05/18 05:43 PM
02/05/18 05:43 PM
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furious70
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that tire change would be the same as changing to a 3.73 gear - it would help some but probably not as much as you'd hope. only a 5.18% change.
70 Sport Fury 68 Charger 69 Coronet 72 RR
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: SportF]
#2446980
02/05/18 06:19 PM
02/05/18 06:19 PM
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an8sec70cuda
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A lot of sophisticated answers here. Why not try something real easy like bumping that timing up to 36-38 degrees. Just try it. Then work on the acceleration rich factor. Bump the timing up to 38° and it'll wake up. My dad's road runner has 3.54 gears, hemi 4 speed, and a 10:1 440 w/ the 509/292 cam w/ 6 pack induction. It is a blast on the street and will roast the 275-60 tires. Has much better driveability than I expected it to have. I even put the cam in straight up instead of 4° advanced like most do. Timing is locked out at 38°.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2447175
02/05/18 11:56 PM
02/05/18 11:56 PM
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fourgearsavoy
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I know my combo is a bit differn't with Indy EZ heads but my engine screams from 2000-5000 and my passengers are looking for something to hold onto I have a 3.54 gear and 2.66 low gear 4-speed with 29" tall tires. I've got a Performer RPM,Quickfuel 1050 4150 carb, Firecore distributor set at 24* base and 34* total all in at 2200. The cam is a very mild solid Comp grind XTQ series with 1.5 rockers. I just touch the pedal and the tires are smokin Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2447237
02/06/18 01:32 AM
02/06/18 01:32 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Interesting thread. How much do you drive the car and where? Freeway? Just to cruise nights? Sounds like a bit much on the cam side to me. I've also heard the 3.54 gear wasn't a great performer down low for cars not set up to overcome the gear. I think changing tires to the 295/60 will help the pep, but I don't think you will like it if you drive it any significant distances.
1969 Dart GTS 340 1969 Super Bee X9 N-96 1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96 2015 Dodge Dart GT 2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn. Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2447461
02/06/18 05:11 PM
02/06/18 05:11 PM
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JAKE68
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All good recommendations here but they are stuff to try and band aid a problem of wrong combo of parts. Carb is not too big ,timing is safe where it is at , gear is good street gear, tires are not too big. cam is wrong!!! probably wants more compression and port work to utilize that cam. change cam to one that fits the rest of your combo better and you will be happy.
JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#2447729
02/06/18 11:17 PM
02/06/18 11:17 PM
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RTSrunner
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Without the OP providing more info about the cars powerband vs what he's looking for, the biggest (by far) problem with it not performing the way he wants is....
THE CAM IS TOO BIG. Agreed.
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2447779
02/07/18 12:09 AM
02/07/18 12:09 AM
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Sport440
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A few things have gone through my mind. The weight of the rotating assembly and the length of the stroke. I've had 383s that had better throttle response and low speed performance. I've thought about advancing the cam. I've had good results with that in the past. It's a heavy car and I'd like to keep the 3.54 gear in it. That in itself presents a bit of a challenge. In this situation it seems like the automatic is more forgiving. Anxious to try some different things and hoping to get the chance soon. Where have you been brother, Lots of input and some questions to help. But you've been I guess. Don't worry about the rotating assembly or stroke length. That's the Hard stuff to fix. Even with the best tune the 253*@ .050 cam is going to be a dog below 3500RPM, with a stick, Well unless you dump the clutch and let her rip. With a high stall vert automatic you can make it work. IMO, a smaller cam change. But it looks like you've decided to bow out of this thread. If your tunes fine, Cam change is your Best bet. Rotating assembly, stroke length. Shouldn't even be in the mix of thoughts for your fix.
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: ahy]
#2447802
02/07/18 12:45 AM
02/07/18 12:45 AM
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Suggest you go down 20-30 degrees... 222-235 @.050 range to get the low and mid range torque back. A
This.^^
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Re: Throttle response and Low speed performance in a 440 stick.
[Re: 2264PLY]
#2447807
02/07/18 01:01 AM
02/07/18 01:01 AM
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moper
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Simple. Cam's too big for what you want to have for other parts, and how you're driving it. Simple parts mismatch.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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