Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: CYACOP]
#2417254
12/12/17 11:45 AM
12/12/17 11:45 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
|
Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
|
Road test it with the vac can hose unhooked/plugged. Confirm the reluctor gap is at .008" with a brass feeler gauge (or eyeball it & want it fairly close but not touching) & confirm the springs are retracted which they should be (not stuck) & when you twist the rotor CCW that it springs back smoothly. With a 1&1/4" socket/breaker bar hand bump the dampener CW till the magnet is dead even with the tooth that places the rotor under or near under the #1 cap terminal (don't go backwards & if you go past then back up & creep up on "dead even" again, & at that point see where the timing marks are on the dampener and how far away the rotor is from being straight under the #1 dist cap terminal outside "bulge". this'll get us started. On the fuel side it may have a vac leak (valley pan). EDIT ported or manifold? MORE EDIT way way lesser potentials are timing chain sprocket dot error/slipped dampener but we'll start with the easy potentials first. the more I think about it the more I potentially think vac leak/lean. clamp the PB hose for a quick test just to get that out of the way.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 12/12/17 12:14 PM. Reason: bored
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: CYACOP]
#2417269
12/12/17 12:30 PM
12/12/17 12:30 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
|
Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
|
when I run it advanced it idles pretty good and you can hit the throttle and it will come right back down to the same smooth idle and the RPM's don't wander around. at that point if it is all good can you leave it there? but it still backfires?
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2417509
12/12/17 06:54 PM
12/12/17 06:54 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,958 SW Fla.
CYACOP
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,958
SW Fla.
|
when I run it advanced it idles pretty good and you can hit the throttle and it will come right back down to the same smooth idle and the RPM's don't wander around. at that point if it is all good can you leave it there? but it still backfires? It doesnt backfrire but will ping when you load it with some throttle on the street. I have to back it off on timing advance to stop it from pinging but Im still way advanced.
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: lewtot184]
#2417511
12/12/17 06:58 PM
12/12/17 06:58 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,958 SW Fla.
CYACOP
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,958
SW Fla.
|
maybe it's not a timing issue but a fuel problem,....? Possibly I think it has a 650 Edelbrock carb that I put on there new a few years ago. Just bolted on a new one not knowing much about the details on the carb. It ran the same with the old holley I took off.
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: CYACOP]
#2417652
12/12/17 11:02 PM
12/12/17 11:02 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
|
Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
|
Alright we're getting closer. what does not seem right? I would bump it to 15 (which likely will require shortening the slots to get it back to 36-38) & the FBO $22 plate is by far the easiest/cheapest way to do this. My bone stock 85 318 does great on 19 initial. are you on ported or manifold?
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: CYACOP]
#2417704
12/13/17 12:35 AM
12/13/17 12:35 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
|
Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
|
Understood, we are getting closer. EDIT I forgot about the pinging, we cannot allow it to ping. what is the total (with the can capped) and what springs are in there. we might need stiffer springs to stop the pinging (& limit the total to 36).
Last edited by RapidRobert; 12/13/17 12:50 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: CYACOP]
#2418196
12/13/17 10:55 PM
12/13/17 10:55 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 91 Pacific NW
cuda66318
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Pacific NW
|
Ported vacuum source? .... as air speed increases through the Primary venturi it creates high pressure in the center to fracture the fuel into small particles, the opposite and equal reaction is Negative wall pressure. If you look at the primary venturi you'll see a small hole in the venturi wall...That is the vacuum source for Ported Vacuum. So as you accelerate the vacuum increases with air velocity and draws more timing into the distributor via the vacuum can. It will pull the amount of timing into the motor based on the numbers stamped on the vacuum arm x 2 ie: 6.5 Arm X2 will give you 13* at the crankshaft.
So if you have the initial timing set at say 6* and the distributor has 28* of mechanical timing in it then as you build rpm you will hit the 34* based on the spring tension (6* initial + Mechanical of 28* = 34*)and THEN it will advance another 13* of ported vacuum timing for a total under load of 47* PING PING BOOM!
Ported Vacuum is for emissions controlled engines with a OBD1 computer that will retard the timing based on the data it receives from multiple sensors such as TPS, O2, knock sensor, engine temp sender, MAP and others as they became more sophisticated.
Think about the fuel formulation your trying to burn in these cars, it's designed for extremely lean burn, sophisticated combustion chamber, high combustion chamber temperature engines, this new fuel is formulated to run in a Injected aluminum V-Tech designed for MILEAGE not your old cold iron push rod motor.
Yes some of the old factory stuff was hooked to ported but look at the timing numbers some as low as 5* BTDC with total at maybe 25* and then the ported vacuum would pull it up another 10-12* to make it run.... very inefficient and always a 5-10MPG gas hog but gas was 28 cents a gallon who cared?
GM perfected the Vacuum advance distributor hooked to Constant Manifold Vacuum and all GM cars were always connected to constant, they also made over 300 different combinations of distributors by using different vacuum cans, vac arms, pin positions on the advance plate and limits on mechanical advance cans to accommodate everything from their 6 cylinder trucks to a 427 corvette.
In today's real world we need to have all the initial timing the motor will take without kicking back or dragging the starter down, that number depends on the compression ratio and the cam duration or valve overlap, the bigger the cam the more initial timing you can run. The Vacuum canister needs to be adjusted to read the manifold vacuum level at idle and then it needs to be set to the correct amount of timing (usually in the 28-32* range)at idle and at part throttle cruise (42-46* range). Where the mechanical curve is set is whole set of different perimeters but it needs to work together with the vacuum timing to maximize engine performance at all loads and RPM levels.
If you have a performance engine the distributor needs to be curved to be compatible with modern fuel and still achieve reasonable fuel economy and still squeeze all the power you can get out of it. Although our 6 position disc really helps in tuning your distributor it's not a $25.00 tune up in a plastic bag. Even after you get the distributor all dialed in you still need a good ECU that won't drop output when hot, retard the timing under load or skip cylinders because of an inadequate coil. Just because someone says this is a "The Best Coil" you have no way to test it to see if it's marketing or engineering data? We do, we tested over 30 coils and then programmed our Microprocessor to optimize it's efficiency even further without compromising longevity or reliability. ANY ECU utilizing slow old 1960's transistors will NOT do the job in today's world I don't care what color it is or what ridiculous claims they're making there is NO Substitution for Modern Level 5 Electronics using Intel Technology microprocessors and Good Ole American Manufacturing Skills and Quality Controls.
Our .0053% failure rate over nearly 6 years and well over 5000 units says that loud and clear.
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2418382
12/14/17 10:47 AM
12/14/17 10:47 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
|
Alright we're getting closer. what does not seem right? I would bump it to 15 (which likely will require shortening the slots to get it back to 36-38) & the FBO $22 plate is by far the easiest/cheapest way to do this. My bone stock 85 318 does great on 19 initial. are you on ported or manifold? A plug for the FBO plate. I have used it on two cars now, it is a really great, easy, way to alter total mechanical advance. I bought extras just to have them.
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: cuda66318]
#2418391
12/14/17 11:19 AM
12/14/17 11:19 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
|
About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
|
Edited for content
Last edited by moparts; 12/14/17 02:03 PM.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: Supercuda]
#2418441
12/14/17 01:16 PM
12/14/17 01:16 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 91 Pacific NW
cuda66318
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Pacific NW
|
Thank you all for your constructive comments.
Last edited by cuda66318; 12/14/17 02:24 PM.
|
|
|
Re: 440 Timing Issue
[Re: Dave Hall]
#2418444
12/14/17 01:25 PM
12/14/17 01:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 91 Pacific NW
cuda66318
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Pacific NW
|
Thank you Dave Hall for the Kudos, glad you appreciate our factual information. Between Jim and I we've been tuning distributors for over a 100 years.
Last edited by cuda66318; 12/14/17 01:25 PM.
|
|
|
|
|