Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
#2376196
09/25/17 01:21 AM
09/25/17 01:21 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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Putting my 77 440 back together - just replacing normal wear items on a good running engine. The lifters were showing wear, so I decided to install a new Summit cam & lifters. Was about to install the cam tonight, but saw what looked like bearing material flaking off of the three center cam bearings. Most of the flaking is near the oil passage, but not always: 1977_440_Cam_Bearings by clair_davis, on Flickr 1977_440_Cam_Bearings by clair_davis, on Flickr So what causes this, and how long does an engine run with this going on? I bought the engine installed in the 77 NY'er it started life with, and the engine seemed to run fine. Are pieces of bearing material going to keep flaking off, or is it a localized thing? Why only the three middle bearings? I've never seen anything like this before... Thanks, Clair
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2376249
09/25/17 07:25 AM
09/25/17 07:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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I thought I'd seen it all.... That has to be a manufacturing fault. No "normal" cause of failure would have done that.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2376275
09/25/17 10:11 AM
09/25/17 10:11 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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Is the cam bearing job one that can be done with the crank/rods/pistons in place? I've got the engine on the engine stand now, and no problem setting the short block on the floor to do this job, but I REALLY don't want to take the bottom end all the way apart.
FWIW, I was warned to watch out for "exploding" cam bearings, particularly the front bearing. Neither my 68 nor this 77 had problems with the front bearing - I haven't checked the other bearings in the 68, but will take a look.
Now to see where I can rent the bearing tool and get the bearings on the way...
If the bearing bores in the block were too small, would something like this happen if the bearings were forced in at original assembly?
Thanks!
Clair
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2376369
09/25/17 12:15 PM
09/25/17 12:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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The bearing are forced in so they dont spin... I use a old cam that has been in about 10 engines to size the bearings.. never had a failure.. I use my impact to spin the old cam with oil
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 09/25/17 12:17 PM.
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: bonefish]
#2376486
09/25/17 02:54 PM
09/25/17 02:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I knock all the old ones out first and then clean the holes thoroughly and then test fit each bearing on the cam before installing them OP, on installing them with the bottom end in, take your time and use the alignment tapered tool on the front hole to get all the other four centered and square to the block first and then drive them in Make sure to align the oil holes with the block also Let us know your results
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/25/17 02:55 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2377130
09/26/17 01:14 PM
09/26/17 01:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I thought I'd seen it all.... That has to be a manufacturing fault. No "normal" cause of failure would have done that. I've seen it countless times....... And worse.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2377301
09/26/17 07:41 PM
09/26/17 07:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
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I thought I'd seen it all.... That has to be a manufacturing fault. No "normal" cause of failure would have done that. I've seen it countless times....... And worse. Ditto. A friend had a 400 of unknown origin that he wanted to throw a cam in. It was running but weak when we pulled it apart. The cam bearings looked even worse!
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2377386
09/26/17 10:09 PM
09/26/17 10:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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While I'm waiting on parts, is there any way to clean out any of the oil passages or other oil-related items? Or is that even worth messing with? The valley and crankcase area have something that looks like a coating of crud - light, but not as clean as the 68 440 was. I assume that the oil passages are cleaner because they were always full of liquid oil, not oil vapor, blow-by, condensation, etc. Cleaner is better, but I don't want to spend time on something that won't be a benefit.
Thanks,
Clair
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2379512
09/30/17 08:28 PM
09/30/17 08:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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Have mercy... Been working on this for 4 hours now, got the old bearings removed, and have two new bearings installed. #2 bearing is the one that feeds the rocker shafts, and after two attempts, I can't seem to get the holes in the bearing to line up with the holes in the block. One hole is nice, the other is offset enough that the view down the feed tube in the block looks like a football - only about 1/4 of the area of the hole is available to feed oil up to the rocker shaft.
How big of a problem is this? I've heard of folks restricting flow to the rockers in some situations - I doubt that this was one of those situations...
I compared the old bearing to the new, and I'm pretty sure that it's operator error that is keeping the holes from lining up. Maybe the holes weren't lined up that great from the factory, but I had no reason to check that before now.
Sure would be nice if all three holes in the bearing were oblong like the one at the bottom.
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2379748
10/01/17 05:08 AM
10/01/17 05:08 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Did you try installing the cam after each new bearing was installed ? If not that is worth doing in the future. I wouldn't even think of trying to install any cam bearing in the motor with the crank and rods in it in the car, I'm thinking you are doing that Good luck, you will get it done, keep after it Maybe see if you can come up with a old cam and use it to fit the bearings in so your cam will slide in decently, you can take a hacksaw and put groove in the cam journals by sawing them all the way across them in a little bit deeper than the cam O.D. I've never done that so hopefully someone else that has will chime in with a picture or better instructions on doing that I have and use a bearing knife to fit (scrape them) my bad bearings a little bit at a time, one bearing at a time also I've never had to fit a cam bearing in a Chevy or Ford block I don't do many of them either, probably around a hundred Mopars to each one of the other brands Not all Mopars need the bearings fitted, some do and I hate them
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/01/17 05:09 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Cam Bearings on 77 440 - Loose Flakes
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#2383695
10/08/17 01:53 AM
10/08/17 01:53 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204 Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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The problem bearing was the one I had to muck with a few times to line up the oil holes. Figures that one wouldn't be done with me so soon. I ended up using my old camshaft as a bearing knife of sorts... Cut a straight groove with a hacksaw and gave it a few turns. Works great, but you have a lot of bearing material to clean out of the tiny groove pretty regularly: Cam_Bearing_Tool by clair_davis, on Flickr I ended up cutting three grooves in that journal, and the cutting went pretty well. Probably had the cam in and out of the block a dozen times, but everything turns nice and smooth now, and the bearing actually looks pretty nice. Now to get the assembly back on track... until the next thing comes up... Thanks again for all the help, guys! Clair
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