I just watched a youtube video saying ALL new off the shelf oil will wipe the lobes off our classic car camshafts.

Its been 12-14 yrs since Ive had mine on the road last and it said late 90's the oil companies lowered zinc/phosphorous amounts.

What is truth and what oil do I use.

Historically I've always used mobil 1.

I use Valvoline VR-1 with my .650 SFT. Pulled the valley tray to have a look and the lobes look perfect. Doesn't break the bank and its available everywhere.

I also use VR-1

So i take it that it was legit?

The guy in the vid recommended Joe gibbs oil (now driven) but said had no
affiliation with them. $10 a Qt. Ouch.

Also said all the major brand oil claims were bogus and didnt have enough zinc.

Where you guys buying valvoline?

VR1 is on Amazon in 6 quart cases, about $6 a quart.


https://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-SAE-VR1...lvoline+vr1+30w

I believe Autozone has it but only in 50 weight. Can't imagine who has use for it.

I get VR-1 at the local Oreilly's or Napa.

Really depends on the cam being run. My stock 2bbl cam in the 273 runs just fine on whatever 10w30 is on sale.

Add 1/3 bottle of Lucas break with the cheapest oil on sale

On a side note I hear www.bobistheoilguy.com is a good read. As said I would go with one of the brands that get touted on here regularly, brad Penn/valvoline VR1 & several others. the search function would have something.

I use simple oils with one container of comp cams zinc additive.

All posted will work, try to find the cam and lifers maybe off ebay that from the late 70-s to early 80-s, although ive never wiped a cam I do feel the base materials have also gotten cheaper.

Std older comp 821-16 non edm lifters are hard to hurt...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMP-Cams-Solid-Lifters-Flat-Tappet-Chrysler-340-360-383-400-Set-of-16-821-16-/262795933374?hash=item3d2fdbb6be:g:9I4AAOSwt5hYcBJ-&vxp=mtr

At times you can find them for $75.

Its also not hard to modify a lifter like the 821-16 for better oiling like in a few odd classes that wont allow a edm lifter.

Howard's also has a direct lube EDM lifter that works well for added protection against worn lobes.

Exactly. It's about Spring Pressure. The anti-wear packages in many current grades are as good or better than what was normally sold in 1968 or 71. However if your running a cam with fast ramp and high spring pressures then yes you probably want to be sure the oil has the a really good package for the sliding follower action.

If you really want to know about oil selection for older engines, then check out Richard Widman's paper. He even sent out a sample of classic motor oil for analysis.
http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html

Alot of links but little hands on input here....hmmm.

I have used Brad Penn and VR1 with great results, I guess that would qualify as hands on results

Gus

hands on means anecdotal. Unless you got analysis results it's useless.

At least the link has the analysis.

you got analysis...



Two of the three links are pushing there product, not sure what "The Corvair Guy" might be helpful for a vw owner.

13 years ago my engine builder told me to use Delo LE 400 15w/40 with a bottle of Comp Cams Oil
additive. I've been running it ever since. I did notice that they came out with a new formula (Delo 400 SDE) with lower Zinc. I still can find the Delo LE formula.

The OP asked if a Video claim regarding current off the shelf motor oil was true. Specifically if all 2017 oil sold will wipe out cams of "our classic car camshafts." We gave an answer and the link has a paper (pdf) that explains why. The details are about the characteristics of lubrication in an engine. It even discusses different needs of gear driven vs. chain driven. For the purpose of understanding how and why an oil made and sold in 2017 differs from the ones made and sold in 1968 and 1971 it doesn't matter if the cam was made by GM or Chrysler or Triumph.

So would VR1 10W30 be better or Valvoline 10W30 with half (or full) a bottle of Rislone ZDDP additive tossed in? I realize it would be like 5 (11 max) extra ounces going in vs just 5 quarts, would that matter?

Is gm EOS additive good? I have a few friends that use that with regular oil like Castrol gtx

[ Moparts Family Site - Keep it Friendly ] did a VW come from?

I've heard nothing but good regarding it & I have used it for decades. it used to be in a can & now it is in a bottle, not sure if the ingredients have changed or not.

[ Moparts Family Site - Keep it Friendly ] did a VW come from?

I think Germany, long ago.

Here are several oils from back in the day....

(sarcasm: when everything, especially oil, was perfect and nothing ever broke down, ever...Even 305 and 2.3 cams lasted forever!! Just ask anyone who worked on them back then! )

....tested by an independent with a dash of humor thrown in....

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/October-1-2012.php

Notice, some of them don't have diddley squat of the magic elixirs....

Purely based on reading a pile of VOAs and what people who are supposed to know what they are talking about are saying....It won't do any harm to try to get something 1000 PPM ZDDP or slightly higher, by means of the oil itself or an additive. Does this mean 2000 ppm is better? No.

I feel that break in procedure, proper lifter rotation/crown/lobe taper are probably more important than the exact oil formula. Many radical flat tappet cams have been successfully run on nothing more than Walmart supertech 15w40 heavy duty oil, for instance. You can use the fanciest, most expensive oil known to man but if your lifters don't rotate, the oil will not save you.

Mobil 1 15w50 used to be a pretty safe bet, SL was fine, even after SM it was still ok, now it's SN and well below 1000 ppm of the magical stuff, which IMHO is a bit of a confidence killer. The thinner grades are very short on magic additives. That said, I wouldn't be afraid to use it on an already broken in stockish cam with light valve springs.

ps. "zinc" is not the missing link...it's zddp, it's a combination of several things, it is not just zinc.....

The video in question:

Can anyone offer any justification for these magic elixirs that include zddp or zinc over my long time preferred Mobil 1 at 25 bucks a Six Pack on sale at Costco, when running a roller cam.

Nope, nor can they really justify it for most slider cams either.

who sells brad penn?

Video says you can use off the shelf 2017 oils with roller cams.

Mancini Racing...


Here's some 'anecdotal' evidence..

Unlike laboratory 'testing'...


Brad Penn...

10+ years of REAL TIME testing in a car that gets driven...

Extended long distance running time...

Extreme multiple high-heat runs...

Beaucoup heat cycles...


Zero issues...

Only about $9 more than a 5qrt jub of mobil 1 full synthetic when buying 5.

Summit Racing sells Brad Penn oil. Purchased plenty from them. I prefer Brad Penn conventional 30 SAE for my 505 big block mopar engine with a Bullet flat tappet cam. I was told by Crower Cams tech line to not run synthetic oil with flat tappet cams. I run the Crower cool face EDM hole solid lifters. Works great, no issues. I have considered running Joe Gibbs oil also. It is all expensive stuff.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bpo-71396/overview/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/jgr-03806/overview/

The Zinc wear addiative ZDP had to be removed from oil because it fouled the dual bed catalitic converters, around 1995 is when they took it out. I just use Shell Rottella, it is available everywhere and has ZDP, also carries a SM API rating for gasoline engines. They just changed the formulation, but it still has ZDP, I emailed Shell. Or you can use racing oil, additives every oil change, etc.

Who ever said that somewhat overstated the facts.
Oils API rated as SJ start in 1997 along with ILSAC GF-2
SL rating was adopted in 2001.
SM in 2004 along with ILSAC GF-4

None of them forced the removal. Rather there was generally a reduction in Zinc and Phosophorous levels with those oils that meet the ILSAC GF-2 and again GF-4 compared to the maximum earlier. The alarm bells (complaints and articles) really seem to have gone off with the implementation of GF-4.

Many API certified oils still have ZDDP. Those with ILSAC current GF shows on a spec sheet as Zinc and Phosophorous levels usually around 600-800 ppm (or .060 - .080). However there still are some oils with higher levels - they may be API rated but will not be current ILSAC GF certified. (Current ILSAC GF will be in the donut or use a starburst circle).

The better oil companies mix a package of additive levels that work together. Too much ZDDP or detergents can interfere with each other. Some base stocks need more ZDDP than others. The ZDDP is also not the only antiwear additive available. So while it has a good history for high temperature-high pressure protection there are others that are better in other situations, or newer and less tested (especially for racing situations).

I too have used Rottella products, most recently the T6 5W-40 in my Jeep AMC 360. They just changed the formulations this year so I'll reevaluate when I finish breaking in the new engine. And being a new engine, it shouldn't need or want the 40.

I have been fixing cars since 1974, and now teach others to fix cars. Oil formulation changes were a direct result of emission devices. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/03/zddp-when-where-what-why-how/

Do a search of new engine designs after 1995, I think the majority have roller lifters, they are more expensive, but they don't require the high load oil additives like ZDP. Diesels after 2006 are supposed to use different oils as well, guess what they have catalitic converters. Nobody forced oil companies to change formulations, but if you don't, what cars can they sell oil for? The current API standards do not meet any of the OEM standards for oil formulations for new engines, I do not use any oil that does not say it meets the OEM oil standard of the vehicle I am working on. so it is really buyer beware. Bad thing is using the wrong oil does not show up right away, it takes time to wear out your engine.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/03/choosing-right-oil/

I generally like Engine Builder articles. There's also more info out there by equally knowledge writers who also reference their sources. So those are worth reading too.

Most important IMO is to find out the details of the specific oil being selected. Due to a variety of reasons the additive packages are not the same for all oils under a label. Both Widman and Blackstone articles linked above provide examples of that.

I'm not disputing that high ZDP levels effect the cat. I was only was disputing the idea that this combination of additives were eliminated in the mid 1990s. As to the proper quantity for a classic engine, its fair to say that it depends on the engine, its use, and the rest of the oil components.

Let me cite Michael Grant's article because he provides a clear references. I think its as good of a read as Widman's, but with a somewhat different audience and focus.
In reference to real world experience:
There have been increasing numbers of cam/tappet failures, especially in the last four or five years [2004-08]. The Engine Rebuilders Association (AERA) has been keeping records for the last ten years. In that period, there have been more reported cam/tappet failures, with the largest jump in numbers of failures after 2004. Of the failures reported, 25% were traced to poor break-in procedures. The other 75% were traced to use of “modern oil for the break-in.

Our own thread to some degree reflects the range of expert analysis. Again Grant
There seems to be a fundamental disconnect here. On the one hand, we have engineers with decades of experience saying modern API SM oil with 0.06 - 0.08% (600-800 PPM) ZDDP should be fine for older flat tappet engines. On the other hand are the large number of companies (with their own engineers) and individuals (many of them respected professional mechanics with decades of real-world experience) who are convinced that 0.06 - 0.08% ZDDP is not enough.

My own conclusion is that its not so much one side of the coin versus the other. Rather it is clear that within a certain range ZDP is a proven component to decreasing sliding wear. The question is how much is too little vs too much. Another question is whether there are some oils with effective substitutes. That question I'll mostly ignore because no one here, including me, seems interested in being a guinea pig.

It is worth noting that within the range of ZDP considered effective one of its roles can be suplanted with other additives.
Not all the ZDDP in oil was there to provide anti-scuffing and anti-wear protection. Some of it functioned as an anti-oxidant. This secondary role of ZDDP was taken over by new ashless and phosphorus free antioxidants, which made it possible to eliminate some of the ZDDP.

The negatives of too much ZDDP seems to be fairly well established.
In several reports ZDDP over 0.14% (1400 PPM) is described as providing increased protection against start-up scuffing, and causing increased wear in the long run. And at 0.20% (2,000 PPM), ZDDP will attack the grain boundaries in the cast iron tappets

“Once ZDDP levels exceed 1500 to 2000 parts per million, the potential for burned ash accumulations in the ring lands and on the piston domes increases dramatically.”*

How Much is Too Little?
While that varies with detergent and base stock amongst other factors, GM's study would suggest that 800 ppm would be about the lowest concentration.
Conclusion for entire study: “Within the range of ZDP concentrations evaluated (0.07 to 0.22 weight percent zinc) there was no clearcut effect of ZDP concentration.” **

Also, even with GF-4 max of 800 ppm for some grades, the API SM required more stringent wear tests applicable to flat tappet cams. Sequence III-G evaluates cam and tappet wear using a GM 3.8L (231 CID) engine that has had the valve train replaced with the flat tappet valve train similar to that used by GM in the 1980s.... Test III-G is specifically “meant to simulate a flat tappet OHV push rod engine in a pickup truck pulling a loaded cattle trailer across the desert on a hot day

That said, clearly portions of the 1970s GM study and others pointed to something closer to 1200 ppm as appropriate for severe use. Finally, while ZDP is an important consideration, that shouldn't be the only one. Others are deposits (for street oils), getting the correct viscosity for the oil temperature and clearances and cold anti-scuff and extreme pressure additives.

sources cited by Grant in "Oil for Vintage Sports Cars" for above quotes:
“How Much ZDP is Enough?” R.M. Olree, (GM Powertrain),M.L. McMillan (GM R&D) SAE Technical Paper Series 2004-01-2986, October 2004"

*“The Lost Lobe Chronicles”, Dave Emanual, Engine Professional, Jan-Mar 2008

**“Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type”
Loren G. Pless, John J. Rodgers, Fuel & Lubricants Dept., Research Labs, General Motors Corp. SAE Report 770087, 1977

Kind of a bummer: looks like they dumped the dual diesel/SM rating on the recent switch from CJ-4 to to CK-4. May be a case of..."if it doesn't meet the newer SN, then say nothing rather than appearing outdated" or "lets focus marketing on diesel", which is too bad.

I have some CJ-4/SM Rotella on hand right now, and agree it seems to be good stuff.

The newer product is probably still fine even though it lacks an official gasoline rating.

Pictures are down the thread a bit showing the lack of gas rating.
Doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not in that business......

Moparts doesn't like the link...copy and paste if interested.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4377748/Shell_Rotella_T5_10W-30_***API

Got a muscle car w/ a flat-tappet cam having any significant open spring pressure at all (over 250#s)?
- Amsoil Z-Rod (only available in synthetic)
- Driven Hot Rod (available in conventional or synthetic)

Don't Band-Aid other oils w/ pour-in zinc additives 'cuz there's no guaranty the two products will mix successfully.

Buy good stuff designed for the proper application. Today's generic passenger car oils are NOT.

People ask the question, this is my OPINION... not up for debate... follow my advice or don't. Your car, your cash.

As others have stated, the cam/springs combo is important. But, if you're just looking for VERY accurate data concerning the ZDDP of common oils, this thread is a good place to start. The data is about 3 or 4 years old, but I doubt that the concentrations have changed much.

I have factory pattern 383 HP and I just use whatever, usually Super Tech 15w-40. Sometimes I try straight 30, 10w30, 10w-40, it doesn't seem to matter that much. However, the original valve train is nothing extreme.

If I had the current aftermarket steep cam and high spring pressure, I would be a lot more cautious.

Myself I have used Valvoline oil since I started working on cars in the early 70's. When the VR1 racing oil came out I started using it and have used it for years. I have never built a roller cam eng for myself as all my engines have been and still are flat tappets. And knock on wood I have never had a cam wipe a lobe. Course I do make sure everything is working right like making sure all the lifters are rotating and so on. Right now I am running the non synthetic Valvoline VR1 20W-50 racing oil which I usually run in all my engines. I have always had great results with the Valvoline oil so stick with it since it has worked great for me all these years. Ron

Good info.
Thanks folks.