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36-1 crank trigger for EFI #2251460 02/11/17 03:19 AM 02/11/17 03:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Just got my first prototype trigger wheels for the EFI conversion. This wheel is a 36-1 tooth setup that should plug and play into the Holley EFI. It is a Mopar 6 bolt setup with an integrated pulley lip so you can put a stock type pulley on it. I also built some new trigger pick up brackets to accept the M12x1 sensor that Holley uses.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251492 02/11/17 09:56 AM 02/11/17 09:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Nice. I really like the pulley center and attention to balance. It's difficult to see from the picture angle, but it looks like it should be a little larger. Many sensors require 1/2" of distance from rotating ferrous materials. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251535 02/11/17 11:43 AM 02/11/17 11:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 46 F Frackster member
Frackster member F Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 46	That looks nice Andy, what do you expect these to go for?

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251537 02/11/17 11:47 AM 02/11/17 11:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 9,172 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 9,172 Ontario, Canada	What thickness spacers do you have to add to all the accessories to line up with the pulleys - this thing looks pretty thick.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Stanton] #2251548 02/11/17 12:05 PM 02/11/17 12:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,857 Here J jcc No soup for you!!!
jcc No soup for you!!! J Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,857 Here	Very nice , two things, since its obviously steel and CNC, how tough would it be to add a ring of lightening holes, if for nothing else, eye candy, and what thickness are the teeth? I forbid my content here from being learned and used by artificial intelligence systems.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251558 02/11/17 12:14 PM 02/11/17 12:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency. Have you considered special V pulleys to compensate for the thickness?

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251608 02/11/17 01:22 PM 02/11/17 01:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 9,172 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 9,172 Ontario, Canada	Quote: It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency I'd like to hear the justification for a billet wheel versus a laser cut or waterjet cut unit out of 1/8 plate at a fraction of the cost. Eye candy - yuh, that's about it !! Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Andy's product. But like the billet valve covers, I don't see the point.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Stanton] #2251623 02/11/17 01:37 PM 02/11/17 01:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Originally Posted By Stanton Quote: It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency I'd like to hear the justification for a billet wheel versus a laser cut or waterjet cut unit out of 1/8 plate at a fraction of the cost. Eye candy - yuh, that's about it !! Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Andy's product. But like the billet valve covers, I don't see the point. There will always be cost to benefit debates. I make my own trigger wheels(very economical), but if you put mine next to Andy's and asked me which one I want, I'd grab Andy's and run! "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Mopar_Rich] #2251626 02/11/17 01:46 PM 02/11/17 01:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By Mopar_Rich It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency. Have you considered special V pulleys to compensate for the thickness? Doty makes a pulley that is the correct height to work with an ATI damper and this trigger wheel. I don't have a picture of it but I mocked it up and the alignment is pretty close.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: TRENDZ] #2251629 02/11/17 01:55 PM 02/11/17 01:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By TRENDZ Nice. I really like the pulley center and attention to balance. It's difficult to see from the picture angle, but it looks like it should be a little larger. Many sensors require 1/2" of distance from rotating ferrous materials. It is possible that it needs to be larger, we'll see. I'm running an aluminum shell on the ATI damper so I think this will work just fine. The damper is 7 inches diameter and the wheel is 7 3/4 so there should be enough of a gap for the trigger to work. Working with billet steel allows me to machine the center and add the other 3D features. I put a dot at the TDC tooth and scribed a line for the sensor tooth. I designed it per the Holley instructions so at TDC the sensor is on the 7th tooth after the gap.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Stanton] #2251806 02/11/17 07:09 PM 02/11/17 07:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,187 Melbourne , Australia LA360 master
LA360 master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,187 Melbourne , Australia	Originally Posted By Stanton Quote: It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency I'd like to hear the justification for a billet wheel versus a laser cut or waterjet cut unit out of 1/8 plate at a fraction of the cost. Eye candy - yuh, that's about it !! Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Andy's product. But like the billet valve covers, I don't see the point. Weight, if done right, you can get a billet cover lighter than any fabricated cover. Alan Jones

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Stanton] #2251814 02/11/17 07:26 PM 02/11/17 07:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama M Monte_Smith master
Monte_Smith master M Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama	Originally Posted By Stanton Quote: It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency I'd like to hear the justification for a billet wheel versus a laser cut or waterjet cut unit out of 1/8 plate at a fraction of the cost. Eye candy - yuh, that's about it !! Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Andy's product. But like the billet valve covers, I don't see the point. Not exactly correct. The main reason the 36-2 wheel is not real popular is because they are thin and flex in higher HP applications. We had to do some machining and weld 3 of the thin ones together to get ours to work consistently. We finally just opted to put a flying magnet on ours with the hall effect sensor and be done with it. Which is fine if you run a cam sensor. The advantage of the 36-2 is that it can detect number one cylinder approaching. That is what the gap is for. This allows you to run sequential without a cam sensor Last edited by Monte_Smith; 02/11/17 07:30 PM.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251853 02/11/17 09:07 PM 02/11/17 09:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Here is the BB Chevy version of the trigger wheel. This is for guys who run an ATI damper with the Chevy front pattern. I put the correct diameter center hole in the wheel so you can use Chevy parts such as a dry sump drive or a pulley. The second shot shows the timing of the missing tooth. With the sensor picking up the missing tooth the engine is at 60 degrees before TDC. I believe this is the way that Holley wants it according to the instructions but I'll let the EFI experts tell me for sure.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251856 02/11/17 09:11 PM 02/11/17 09:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I made these 0.370 thick since that is the thickness of the MSD trigger wheel. A lot of guys already have their front drives spaced out to work with the MSD trigger wheel so this should be a direct drop in replacement. It isn't really designed for the street car crowd but it could be used on a street car if you use the shorter pulley from Doty. Another option is to use the ATI damper, 3/8 trigger wheel and then a Hemi pulley on a wedge. The Hemi pulley is about 0.750 shorter so it compensates for the longer ATI damper and the thickness of the trigger. I've mocked that combo up before and it can be made to work. Sometimes you need a thin spacer.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251931 02/11/17 10:52 PM 02/11/17 10:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,857 Here J jcc No soup for you!!!
jcc No soup for you!!! J Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,857 Here	That's a healthy tooth thickness at .370", since the signal is just a s/N ratio issue, with alum damper shell, a larger dia reluctor, and fact others use .125" and .187" thickness rotors, this should be pretty solid signal platform. I am puzzled how Monte senses #1 TDC without a cam sensor, or is it a wasted spark set-up non sequential? I forbid my content here from being learned and used by artificial intelligence systems.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2251976 02/11/17 11:40 PM 02/11/17 11:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	JCC: Any missing tooth trigger tells the ECU when either #1 or #6 is coming up, so the ignition is waste spark. You don't have sequential injection but you can do DIS as you stated. Add a cam sensor and you run full sequential injection and coils fire only once per cycle instead of waste spark. Now you can also tune fuel and spark on an individual cylinder basis.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252017 02/12/17 12:32 AM 02/12/17 12:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I'll have my own custom cam sync unit in a few weeks. Just need to get a few more parts fabricated.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252087 02/12/17 05:07 AM 02/12/17 05:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 733 jacksonville,FLORIDA slammedR/T super stock
slammedR/T super stock Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 733 jacksonville,FLORIDA	AndyF, I need this for small block Mopar, please tell me you are making it for small block also? 2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252127 02/12/17 09:34 AM 02/12/17 09:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	BB and small block should be the same. Maybe different diameter balancer options? "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252180 02/12/17 11:24 AM 02/12/17 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK	That looks very nice! If you have one with the 6 bolt pattern on it I will probably get one of those. I have a Morosso crank pulley and it is no big deal to chuck it on a friends mill and shave some more off of the back of it. I have a very thin laser cut wheel a friend of mine made for me. It works great but it is thinner than anything on the market. The only time I have had a sync loss problem was when I moved my stuff over to my current engine and did not recheck sensor gap. 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: slammedR/T] #2252276 02/12/17 01:42 PM 02/12/17 01:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By slammedR/T AndyF, I need this for small block Mopar, please tell me you are making it for small block also? The bolt pattern and the center lip diameter is the same on a SB as a BB so it will bolt on a SB damper. (need a flat face type damper) But you would need to figure out the placement of the trigger pickup on a SB. I designed it for a BB with the trigger pickup on the lower passenger side of the block. The hole pattern is symmetrical so you can spin it around and put the gap anywhere you need it but you would have to figure it out.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252414 02/12/17 04:59 PM 02/12/17 04:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK	For the small block guys, this is what I did with mine. I ordered pieces from a crank trigger kit from MSD, the piece the sensor is mounted in is a blank from the MSD "universal" crank trigger kit. I was lucky that I could borrow a tap for the sensor, the taps I found for that M12-1 cost more than the sensor. 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252416 02/12/17 05:02 PM 02/12/17 05:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	That looks like it should work. I do have extra wheels on hand at the moment but I haven't had the signal tested yet. If you're in a hurry and want to buy one now that is fine with me, just shoot me a PM. Otherwise I'm going to send a wheel down to Rich and have him look at the trigger signal and then I'll know how well the design works. My own test engine won't be together and running for a few more weeks so I won't have my own test data for a while.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252551 02/12/17 08:00 PM 02/12/17 08:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Here's a 60-2 wheel I made for MrP. Small block. He has an odd driver side trigger mount so I left the "missing" teeth intact. He will need to remove them as needed for his custom set up. This particular wheel is 1/4" thick, was plasma table cut, and machined true. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252560 02/12/17 08:18 PM 02/12/17 08:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	THAT, I like.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252581 02/12/17 08:48 PM 02/12/17 08:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama M Monte_Smith master
Monte_Smith master M Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama	The question I get is "do I NEED the 60-2 or 36-1 instead of a 4 magnet wheel". As far as resolution, we have never detected one iota of increased resolution with more teeth. So, is it better? maybe. Is it any better that you will ever SEE? highly unlikely. If you have a cam sensor, I personally see zero need for more teeth and if you don't have cam sensor, more teeth allows you the option of the waste fire coils if you choose to run them. Most people already have a crank trigger, so leaving the flying magnet wheel and bracket in place and simply screwing in the Holley hall effect sensor is the quick and painless way to go

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252598 02/12/17 09:17 PM 02/12/17 09:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Well, my reasons for using 60-2 trigger wheels are admittedly probably not like most users. I can custom make them for specific applications for 1/4 of the price of a flying magnet wheel that may not be the best physical fit for the application. The 60-2 is just about universally accepted with most efi systems, and can use almost any sensor, generic magnetic or generic hall. I started using these wheels because in the 90s with Electromotive, it was the only choice. Even then, Motronic, Motec, Haltec, and I think early Felpro efi could use it. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252645 02/12/17 10:25 PM 02/12/17 10:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	I agree. Not all aftermarket EFI vendors make it easy to run 36X, but they all can handle 58X. Holley has no problem with any of these.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2252653 02/12/17 10:42 PM 02/12/17 10:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 258 Stockholm, Sweden T TomsCharger70 enthusiast
TomsCharger70 enthusiast T Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 258 Stockholm, Sweden	AndyF*** -Would there be a possbility to get a sensor bracket + trigger wheel, that would mount to the driver side of the engine in the future ?? (I run a (older) low mount alternator bracket on the passenger side from DMI.. or may be the new type braket (alternator+sensor) from DMI would work with your trigger wheel??) Thanks! /Tom Last edited by TomsCharger70; 02/12/17 10:50 PM.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: TRENDZ] #2252673 02/12/17 11:01 PM 02/12/17 11:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,857 Here J jcc No soup for you!!!
jcc No soup for you!!! J Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,857 Here	"I started using these wheels because in the 90s with Electromotive" At the time and may still, Electromotive explained they went with the 60-2 because the higher tooth count allowed them to measure the instantaneous engine speed better, as it varied with each power stroke cyclically, if I understand it correctly. Obviously the ecu would have to be "smart" enough to use the extra data. I forbid my content here from being learned and used by artificial intelligence systems.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: TomsCharger70] #2252726 02/13/17 12:04 AM 02/13/17 12:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By TomsCharger70 AndyF*** -Would there be a possbility to get a sensor bracket + trigger wheel, that would mount to the driver side of the engine in the future ?? (I run a (older) low mount alternator bracket on the passenger side from DMI.. or may be the new type braket (alternator+sensor) from DMI would work with your trigger wheel??) Thanks! /Tom I think that the Doty mount would work with this trigger wheel. The Holley sensor is 12Mx1 so you'll have to ask Doty for a sensor mount with the correct metric thread.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2253106 02/13/17 06:38 PM 02/13/17 06:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 733 jacksonville,FLORIDA slammedR/T super stock
slammedR/T super stock Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 733 jacksonville,FLORIDA	Originally Posted By AndyF Originally Posted By slammedR/T AndyF, I need this for small block Mopar, please tell me you are making it for small block also? The bolt pattern and the center lip diameter is the same on a SB as a BB so it will bolt on a SB damper. (need a flat face type damper) But you would need to figure out the placement of the trigger pickup on a SB. I designed it for a BB with the trigger pickup on the lower passenger side of the block. The hole pattern is symmetrical so you can spin it around and put the gap anywhere you need it but you would have to figure it out. Awesome, I will buy one when they are ready, thanks again for making great products for us mopar guys 2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2261112 02/28/17 03:24 PM 02/28/17 03:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit... rumblefish72 enthusiast
rumblefish72 enthusiast Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...	I'm interested ... I was planning on cutting a custom one using the dividing head and my milling machine. I bet it would have taken me a weekend and I'd have to make two of them once I figured out where all my design errors were making the first one. Andy - you can save me from all this headache. I have other AR Engineering parts on my car and in my toolbox. Your stuff is top notch. Just let us know when it's available. I always set my crank pulley where it wants to be and then make spacers to get everything else to line up so spacing isn't an issue for me. I already have a EDIS-8 wheel and the Ford Sensor, Mallory Firestorm ignition box that will do wasted spark. I plan to use some MSD dumb coils that were for a Neon. I'll mount the coils where the distributor used to be on my Wedge motor and hide everything else. Everyone will wonder what type of crazy distributor I'm running. Last edited by rumblefish72; 02/28/17 03:25 PM. 1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2261140 02/28/17 04:29 PM 02/28/17 04:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	If you want one just shoot me a PM. I have a couple left from the first batch that I made.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2262437 03/03/17 12:05 AM 03/03/17 12:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Rich sent me a picture of the trigger signal using this 36-1 wheel and the Holley sensor. Looks nice and crisp and he says that it works with a fairly large gap. This picture was with 0.100 gap but he also shot a picture with 0.200 gap that looked good also.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2262539 03/03/17 07:45 AM 03/03/17 07:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Good to see a clean signal at those gaps! I never ventured above .060 with any of the ones I've set up(which gave me major problems with a particular snout flexing blower drive) This setup would seem to be more forgiving than the 60-2. Good work! By the way, I wish my bench scope had a usb port. Gotta get into the modern era. Next thing you know, my phone won't have a hinge in the middle either! "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2262571 03/03/17 10:30 AM 03/03/17 10:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit... rumblefish72 enthusiast
rumblefish72 enthusiast Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...	That FastMan Rich - he's such a geek! I'm going to have to see if I can duplicate that with my OScope. Now I can finally tell my wife why I bought it I wonder if my milling machine will spin the trigger wheel at a stable RPM once it's been running for a bit and everything has temperature stabilized. And that looks like a nice square wave but aren't you really looking for very very slight variations of the time between each rising edge? I guess that if the rising edge is every 10 degrees of crankshaft rotation (36-1), and the signal visibly looks good on the scope, you would have to be looking at an error of less than a degree. Then, not to overthink this but I wonder if any of the electronics upstream from the trigger signal smooth things out so that you are not driving all the rest of the ignition processing from a raw trigger signal. Maybe I should start a thread on the IEEE or SAE Bulletin Boards. Or maybe I can find more existing content on the MegaSquirt Forum. Very cool stuff .... That's why I come here ... Thanks once again to AndyF and RichN!! Last edited by rumblefish72; 03/03/17 02:52 PM. Reason: fix fatfingers 1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2262638 03/03/17 12:39 PM 03/03/17 12:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	Thanks Rumble .... Geek's rule!

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Monte_Smith] #2262666 03/03/17 01:39 PM 03/03/17 01:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB E Efidart enthusiast
Efidart enthusiast E Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB	Originally Posted By Monte_Smith The question I get is "do I NEED the 60-2 or 36-1 instead of a 4 magnet wheel". As far as resolution, we have never detected one iota of increased resolution with more teeth. So, is it better? maybe. Is it any better that you will ever SEE? highly unlikely. If you have a cam sensor, I personally see zero need for more teeth and if you don't have cam sensor, more teeth allows you the option of the waste fire coils if you choose to run them. Most people already have a crank trigger, so leaving the flying magnet wheel and bracket in place and simply screwing in the Holley hall effect sensor is the quick and painless way to go Monte- I'm running an MSD crank trigger with dist as cam sync and had 0 problems. Only time I ever see timing error is idle (1-2.5% at max as logged on my MS3PRO) which at 20 degrees is only .2-.5 of a degree. On anything above idle the timing error is always 0, have never seen timing error on transient rpm or any type of load above 1200~RPM. Switching to IGN1A coils now and going distributorless begs the question.. Now I'm ditching the distributor should I goto a 36-1 wheel from the flying magnet. I went with the SD concepts jeep cam sync adapter to ditch the distributor, I think now I'm just worrying about the crank trigger for nothing again. Doing the math.. at 7,000 RPM it is checking crank position 466 times per second and verifying 116 times #1 cylinder position. On a 36 tooth wheel it checks crank position at 4200 times per second but still verifying #1 cylinder position 116 times also. Being that the thing that matters is #1 cylinder position, the number of times it verifies in-between shouldn't matter as the crankshaft does not change being why we see no difference and no timing error? Am I on the right thought process? At 1,000 rpm idle it is only checking the cam position 16 times a second or so with 66 syncs of the crank position. Being at idle the crank accelerates and decelerates on a randomish pattern is why I am seeing the small amount of timing error. When the crankshaft is accelerating only (Or under a load) with more cam sync the timing error goes away. The MSD flying magnet hasn't failed me or made timing as verified at RPM waiver. So why change to make idle timing error that doesn't really matter (Also the Jesel belt may be stretching .1-.3 of a degree anyways at idle causing the ecu to detect and generate timing error vs belt being under tension at rpm??? It's a dilemma that makes me think if its not broke don't fix it.. but the other side of me thinks.. More info the better. Though is it really when the Cam only syncs once a 4 stroke engine cycle and the crank knows 8 times between that where the crank is. Maybe I should ditch it and go back to a Chrysler lean burn . Overthinking sometimes hurts. TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car. Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015 Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017 Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Efidart] #2262710 03/03/17 02:48 PM 03/03/17 02:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	Quote: Being that the thing that matters is #1 cylinder position, the number of times it verifies in-between shouldn't matter as the crankshaft does not change being why we see no difference and no timing error? Am I on the right thought process? Yes. At steady state RPM, all crank triggers will be very accurate regardless of the number of teeth. A 4 magnet MSD will be slightly retarded during a quick acceleration because the distance between pulses is changing in real time. Although I can measure this small temporary error electronically I have never seen any effect on the engine dyno.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Efidart] #2263599 03/05/17 11:16 AM 03/05/17 11:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Originally Posted By Efidart Originally Posted By Monte_Smith The question I get is "do I NEED the 60-2 or 36-1 instead of a 4 magnet wheel". As far as resolution, we have never detected one iota of increased resolution with more teeth. So, is it better? maybe. Is it any better that you will ever SEE? highly unlikely. If you have a cam sensor, I personally see zero need for more teeth and if you don't have cam sensor, more teeth allows you the option of the waste fire coils if you choose to run them. Most people already have a crank trigger, so leaving the flying magnet wheel and bracket in place and simply screwing in the Holley hall effect sensor is the quick and painless way to go Monte- I'm running an MSD crank trigger with dist as cam sync and had 0 problems. Only time I ever see timing error is idle (1-2.5% at max as logged on my MS3PRO) which at 20 degrees is only .2-.5 of a degree. On anything above idle the timing error is always 0, have never seen timing error on transient rpm or any type of load above 1200~RPM. Switching to IGN1A coils now and going distributorless begs the question.. Now I'm ditching the distributor should I goto a 36-1 wheel from the flying magnet. I went with the SD concepts jeep cam sync adapter to ditch the distributor, I think now I'm just worrying about the crank trigger for nothing again. Doing the math.. at 7,000 RPM it is checking crank position 466 times per second and verifying 116 times #1 cylinder position. On a 36 tooth wheel it checks crank position at 4200 times per second but still verifying #1 cylinder position 116 times also. Being that the thing that matters is #1 cylinder position, the number of times it verifies in-between shouldn't matter as the crankshaft does not change being why we see no difference and no timing error? Am I on the right thought process? At 1,000 rpm idle it is only checking the cam position 16 times a second or so with 66 syncs of the crank position. Being at idle the crank accelerates and decelerates on a randomish pattern is why I am seeing the small amount of timing error. When the crankshaft is accelerating only (Or under a load) with more cam sync the timing error goes away. The MSD flying magnet hasn't failed me or made timing as verified at RPM waiver. So why change to make idle timing error that doesn't really matter (Also the Jesel belt may be stretching .1-.3 of a degree anyways at idle causing the ecu to detect and generate timing error vs belt being under tension at rpm??? It's a dilemma that makes me think if its not broke don't fix it.. but the other side of me thinks.. More info the better. Though is it really when the Cam only syncs once a 4 stroke engine cycle and the crank knows 8 times between that where the crank is. Maybe I should ditch it and go back to a Chrysler lean burn . Overthinking sometimes hurts. The cam sensor doesn't tell the ecu where #1 is, it only tells the ecu what stroke the engine is in referenced to crank sensor position. The cam sensor sensor can, in most cases, be in a wide swing of positions (90 degrees or so) and still have no effect on timing or fuel. If you have the flying magnet, I would suggest you stay with it. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Efidart] #2263667 03/05/17 01:06 PM 03/05/17 01:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma 340Cuda master
340Cuda master Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma	Originally Posted By Efidart Maybe I should ditch it and go back to a Chrysler lean burn . Overthinking sometimes hurts. Now that is funny! Good discussion.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: TRENDZ] #2263712 03/05/17 02:07 PM 03/05/17 02:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB E Efidart enthusiast
Efidart enthusiast E Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB	Originally Posted By TRENDZ The cam sensor doesn't tell the ecu where #1 is, it only tells the ecu what stroke the engine is in referenced to crank sensor position. The cam sensor sensor can, in most cases, be in a wide swing of positions (90 degrees or so) and still have no effect on timing or fuel. If you have the flying magnet, I would suggest you stay with it. The cam sensor tells the ECU which cylinder is cylinder #1 in the firing order. The position can be almost anywhere before #1 TDC as most can compensate. Always has been this way regardless of the ECU including OEMs, remembering the cam only rotates once to 2 turns of the crankshaft.. It cannot be on the wrong stroke as your distributor will deliver the spark to the proper cylinder in the firing order. If you had COP.. and the cam sensor went, it will not run or will run in a wasted spark environment with a -2 wheel. Holley Cam sensor setup I think I will stay with the MSD crank trigger, looking at the logs I did have a few places it had timing error but not enough of any consequence. Also looking at trigger wheel logs it never missed a beat ever in hours of logging. Why fix something that isn't broke eh? TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car. Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015 Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017 Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2263762 03/05/17 02:59 PM 03/05/17 02:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Yes, I guess in the case of a 4 magnet wheel, it indicates which of 8 pulses will be #1. After re-reading, I realize you weren't thinking that the cam sensor has any effect on timing, only indicating which pulse is #1. My error. In multi tooth wheels, the cam sensor only needs to indicate what stroke. The engine would run with a COP and no cam as you stated. But that wouldn't happen with a flying magnet type crank sensor and COP. The ecu would have no idea where the crank is without a cam signal unlike a multi tooth wheel. I know how long you've been doing this. Don't know why I would think you didn't know the workings! By the way. Nice work with that beast. Saw you at "Da Grove" last year, but you looked kinda busy. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: TRENDZ] #2263913 03/05/17 07:24 PM 03/05/17 07:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB E Efidart enthusiast
Efidart enthusiast E Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB	I've watched your car for a long time too and the progress you've had it kicks ass, It's a little shiner than mine . That is a big plus running a -2 wheel as it can run sequential regardless of the cam sensor working. Being I'm going to CNP it could be a life saver... The idea of bolting one in direct place of my flying magnet wheel is so attractive... I'm just so torn as in reality it is and isn't any gain. I just be happy with my new Rossler Pro Mod Max trans and getting it down the track than sweating the small things. Come say Hi on DW this year if ya see me, good to put a face to the name. TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car. Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015 Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017 Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Efidart] #2263998 03/05/17 09:34 PM 03/05/17 09:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	Originally Posted By Efidart That is a big plus running a -2 wheel as it can run sequential regardless of the cam sensor working. Being I'm going to CNP it could be a life saver... The idea of bolting one in direct place of my flying magnet wheel is so attractive... A -2 wheel allows CNP in "waste spark" mode only and the injectors are not sequential. The benefit of using a cam sensor is that it allows fully sequential injection and the CNP ignition is not waste spark. Why is this better? Because now you can tune both fuel and spark on an individual cylinder basis. Most NA engines do not need this individual cylinder tuning but blower engines can benefit greatly since charge distribution can be an issue.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2264075 03/05/17 11:17 PM 03/05/17 11:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Yeah to be clear... the multi tooth wheels will run waste spark without a cam signal with COP, but they will run. A flying magnet with COP will not run at all if you lose the cam sync. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2264286 03/06/17 12:53 PM 03/06/17 12:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB E Efidart enthusiast
Efidart enthusiast E Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB	It is amazing how expensive injectors can still be out 2-3% between each other when tuning off EGTs balancing holes. An MS3Pro will still support semi-sequential fueling at least if the cam sync dies on a -2 wheel, along with the wasted spark. AndyF what is one of those wheels worth that bolts in place of a crank trigger?? TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car. Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015 Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017 Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2264345 03/06/17 03:13 PM 03/06/17 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I've been selling this first batch of trigger wheels for $200 plus postage. Not sure what the final price will be or if I'll even put them into production. I'm trying to figure out if there is a less expensive way to make them and still keep the center ring feature.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Mopar_Rich] #2265999 03/09/17 01:40 AM 03/09/17 01:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By Mopar_Rich It's great to see some higher quality EFI components for the Mopar contingency. Have you considered special V pulleys to compensate for the thickness? Rich, I mocked the trigger wheel up on an ATI damper and the Doty pulley can be made to line up with a stock water pump pulley so that isn't the issue. The real issue is that the trigger wheel diameter is too large to fit a stock water pump. The only way to make the trigger wheel smaller is to have a smaller damper but ATI does not make a small diameter damper for BB Mopar engines. So this approach wouldn't work with a stock water pump. It fits fine on a race engine with an electric water pump which of course is what I designed it to do. If a person has a race engine with an electric water pump and they want a crank pulley for a vacuum pump then typically the spacing doesn't matter that much since it is all custom mounts anyway.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2266930 03/10/17 05:22 PM 03/10/17 05:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Here is a shot of the six bolt wheel mounted up on an ATI damper with the Jesel belt drive. I had new sensor brackets built with the correct 12mm thread so this is now a bolt on setup.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2266943 03/10/17 05:46 PM 03/10/17 05:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK	My Doty pulley just came in yesterday so I plan to fire it up with the new wheel this weekend. Such a nice looking setup! 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2267643 03/11/17 08:03 PM 03/11/17 08:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK	I got Andy's wheel mounted up this afternoon and fired up. I need to go snap a picture of the assembled setup up close but I do have a video link. I locked the timing, unplugged the injectors and cranked it a few times to adjust the trigger offset for the new missing tooth location. Once I confirmed timing during cranking I plugged the injectors in and fired it off with the timing locked at 35* to recheck it, all was good so I turned the timing table back on and it is ready to eat. Here is a short video of the car at idle. The view on the laptop is a composite trigger log built into Tunerstudio the program that runs the megasquirt. The bottom signal is the crank teeth and you can see where the missing one is. The top line is the cam sync. https://youtu.be/oRwsDMBq8e8 Another top notch product from Andy. 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2267760 03/11/17 11:00 PM 03/11/17 11:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	Looks GREAT!

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2268788 03/13/17 06:15 PM 03/13/17 06:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I agree, that scope signal looks like it is working just fine. Thanks for posting the video.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2269340 03/14/17 01:18 PM 03/14/17 01:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL cudadon top fuel
cudadon top fuel Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL	Andy is that timing pointer yours? I didn't see it on your site or mancini's. If so will it work with msd trigger brkt? And how much? Thanks, Don http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/cudadon/BKD6_09_10_191A.jpg

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: cudadon] #2269400 03/14/17 03:01 PM 03/14/17 03:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By cudadon Andy is that timing pointer yours? I didn't see it on your site or mancini's. If so will it work with msd trigger brkt? And how much? Thanks, Don Yes the timing pointer is mine. Part number AR177K is the version that works with the MSD trigger wheel but that version has a 3/4 inch thread. I had to make a new trigger bracket for the Holley sensors since the use a smaller 12x1mm thread. http://arengineering.com/products/crank-trigger-kit/ Last edited by AndyF; 03/14/17 03:02 PM.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2269891 03/15/17 10:43 AM 03/15/17 10:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma 340Cuda master
340Cuda master Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma	Andy, Do you have anything similar for a small block mopar, with or without the crank trigger mount? If not do you know anyone that does? Thanks, Bill

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2270116 03/15/17 05:42 PM 03/15/17 05:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL cudadon top fuel
cudadon top fuel Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL	Thanks Andy. Is the tdc pointer available separately? Don http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/cudadon/BKD6_09_10_191A.jpg

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: 340Cuda] #2270239 03/15/17 09:12 PM 03/15/17 09:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By 340Cuda Andy, Do you have anything similar for a small block mopar, with or without the crank trigger mount? If not do you know anyone that does? Thanks, Bill MSD sells a flying magnet SB crank trigger wheel and mount kit. Not sure if anyone else does.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: cudadon] #2270241 03/15/17 09:14 PM 03/15/17 09:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By cudadon Thanks Andy. Is the tdc pointer available separately? Don Just the little pointer or the black anodized bracket with the pointer? The dealers only stock the AR177K kit but I can sell you parts if there is something you need. What are you trying to do?

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2270450 03/16/17 10:11 AM 03/16/17 10:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma 340Cuda master
340Cuda master Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma	Originally Posted By AndyF Originally Posted By 340Cuda Andy, Do you have anything similar for a small block mopar, with or without the crank trigger mount? If not do you know anyone that does? Thanks, Bill MSD sells a flying magnet SB crank trigger wheel and mount kit. Not sure if anyone else does. Andy, I have the MSD setup but I also run a Weber belt drive, so no stock timing chain cover and no timing mark. I have made a pointer myself but I would like something more substantial and professional looking. This is a 9.00 deck R-3 block. Thanks, Bill

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2270509 03/16/17 12:16 PM 03/16/17 12:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I used to build billet front covers for SB engines but sales were super low so I stopped doing much SB stuff. The big block stuff outsells SB stuff by 20 to 1.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2270612 03/16/17 03:23 PM 03/16/17 03:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL cudadon top fuel
cudadon top fuel Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL	Originally Posted By AndyF Originally Posted By cudadon Thanks Andy. Is the tdc pointer available separately? Don Just the little pointer or the black anodized bracket with the pointer? The dealers only stock the AR177K kit but I can sell you parts if there is something you need. What are you trying to do? I like the look of the pointer. I think it can mount on the msd brkt. It is a nice little piece. Thanks, Don http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/cudadon/BKD6_09_10_191A.jpg

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2271045 03/17/17 09:33 AM 03/17/17 09:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma 340Cuda master
340Cuda master Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,580 Tulsa, Oklahoma	Originally Posted By AndyF The big block stuff outsells SB stuff by 20 to 1. Yeah, just running a Mopar is not hard enough so I run a small block... A small block with a funky looking timing pointer. :-)

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: cudadon] #2273032 03/20/17 02:02 PM 03/20/17 02:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL cudadon top fuel
cudadon top fuel Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,138 New Lenox IL	Originally Posted By cudadon Originally Posted By AndyF Originally Posted By cudadon Thanks Andy. Is the tdc pointer available separately? Don Just the little pointer or the black anodized bracket with the pointer? The dealers only stock the AR177K kit but I can sell you parts if there is something you need. What are you trying to do? I like the look of the pointer. I think it can mount on the msd brkt. It is a nice little piece. Thanks, Don Sorry Andy, I don't think it will work with the msd brkt. Does yours have the same sensor spacing as msd? Thanks Don http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/cudadon/BKD6_09_10_191A.jpg

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2273050 03/20/17 02:38 PM 03/20/17 02:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK	Originally Posted By AndyF I agree, that scope signal looks like it is working just fine. Thanks for posting the video. I was able to get a few miles on it this weekend, all is well I had zero sync loss on my 15 mile drive. 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2273063 03/20/17 02:59 PM 03/20/17 02:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,841 Central Missouri Fort Leonard... mopar65 master
mopar65 master Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,841 Central Missouri Fort Leonard...	Andy do you have a trigger wheel that will work with a GM LS computer? I found out I need a 58 count wheel. I am putting a factory 5.9 magnum and want to fun fuel injection. I was going to use the factory dodge FI. But thought about trying to see if I can fit the GM LS computer could injectors etc on to the 360 dodge engine.i am wanting to install a turbo next year. Also I will be ominous latter about your small block motor plate. I have a few question about it 3520 pound race ready 1973 Street/Strip Dodge Dart - Stock stroke 440/727 10.49 @ 125.0 on 93 pump gas & ET Street Radials. More to come... ( SGT Miller) Proudly served 12 years in the US ARMY RESERVES support our troops

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: mopar65] #2273070 03/20/17 03:13 PM 03/20/17 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Sorry, I only made up the 36-1 wheels for this project. Shouldn't be too hard to find someone who can laser cut a 58 tooth wheel for you.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Bad340fish] #2273072 03/20/17 03:14 PM 03/20/17 03:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By Bad340fish Originally Posted By AndyF I agree, that scope signal looks like it is working just fine. Thanks for posting the video. I was able to get a few miles on it this weekend, all is well I had zero sync loss on my 15 mile drive. Cool deal. I haven't gotten my engine fired up yet, still waiting for some parts to show up from Holley.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2273089 03/20/17 03:33 PM 03/20/17 03:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,989 Warren, MI J Jerry master
Jerry master J Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,989 Warren, MI	the gm ls computer needs an ls trigger wheel. its a dual pattern pretty funky piece. we have them with available with our crank trigger kits. Superior Design Concepts 2574 Elliott Dr Troy MI 48083 jerry@sdconcepts.com www.sdconcepts.com Facebook page: Superior Design Concepts www.bcrproducts.com

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Jerry] #2273119 03/20/17 04:13 PM 03/20/17 04:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,841 Central Missouri Fort Leonard... mopar65 master
mopar65 master Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,841 Central Missouri Fort Leonard...	Originally Posted By Jerry the gm ls computer needs an ls trigger wheel. its a dual pattern pretty funky piece. we have them with available with our crank trigger kits. Hey thanks for the info. I will pm you tonight about price etc 3520 pound race ready 1973 Street/Strip Dodge Dart - Stock stroke 440/727 10.49 @ 125.0 on 93 pump gas & ET Street Radials. More to come... ( SGT Miller) Proudly served 12 years in the US ARMY RESERVES support our troops

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2281905 04/03/17 10:08 PM 04/03/17 10:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I just got the first batch of cam sync units out of the shop. Looks like this is going to fit really nice. I need to get the units assembled and tested but I think this will be a drop in solution that saves a bunch of space.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2281914 04/03/17 10:16 PM 04/03/17 10:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Originally Posted By AndyF I just got the first batch of cam sync units out of the shop. Looks like this is going to fit really nice. I need to get the units assembled and tested but I think this will be a drop in solution that saves a bunch of space. Looks like the Jeep sensor

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2281938 04/03/17 11:08 PM 04/03/17 11:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY Originally Posted By AndyF I just got the first batch of cam sync units out of the shop. Looks like this is going to fit really nice. I need to get the units assembled and tested but I think this will be a drop in solution that saves a bunch of space. Looks like the Jeep sensor I agree, it does look like the Jeep sensor but I used a Ford sensor instead. The Ford sensor seemed easier to find and was less expensive. I assume because it is a higher volume part. This sensor fits a bunch of Ford engines from 1995 to 2008. I used Airtex 5S1283 but there are other parts that cross reference.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2282092 04/04/17 09:45 AM 04/04/17 09:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 790 Midwest F fuseable super stock
fuseable super stock F Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 790 Midwest	What will the cam sensor sell for $$$?

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2282135 04/04/17 11:25 AM 04/04/17 11:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Is the Ford sensor compatible with both 5v and 12v supply voltages like the jeep sensor? The setup looks nice. Will they be available in all mopar shaft lengths?(B,RB,LA) "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: TRENDZ] #2282159 04/04/17 11:51 AM 04/04/17 11:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By TRENDZ Is the Ford sensor compatible with both 5v and 12v supply voltages like the jeep sensor? The setup looks nice. Will they be available in all mopar shaft lengths?(B,RB,LA) Not sure on the supply voltage, I'll have to test that. I made B and RB lengths to start with. I'm sure I can make a SB shaft too if there is any demand.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2295691 04/28/17 04:07 PM 04/28/17 04:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Here is a picture with the sensor off. I did a 180 degree shutter since that is what everyone else seems to do. I have these on hand now for both B and RB engines but I need to get them tested before I start selling them. I'll send one to Rich and see what his scope says.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2295734 04/28/17 06:17 PM 04/28/17 06:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 18,065 S.E. Michigan ZIPPY I Live Here
ZIPPY I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 18,065 S.E. Michigan	All automotive technicalities aside... I'm still trying to figure out how you get your pictures to look like that Rich H. Esse Quam Videri

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: ZIPPY] #2295934 04/29/17 03:34 AM 04/29/17 03:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 234 Brisvegas, Australia A Alchemi enthusiast
Alchemi enthusiast A Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 234 Brisvegas, Australia	Originally Posted By ZIPPY All automotive technicalities aside... I'm still trying to figure out how you get your pictures to look like that An ok to nice camera and GOOD LIGHTING - Andy's been doing this a while and you cant have crappy pics in books

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: ZIPPY] #2296166 04/29/17 04:50 PM 04/29/17 04:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By ZIPPY All automotive technicalities aside... I'm still trying to figure out how you get your pictures to look like that I could teach you everything I know about photography in less than 30 minutes! Here are some more photos. This is a new design I just finished up where I put the Ford Explorer cam sync sensor on the back of my Jesel belt drive. On my dry sump engine I don't have an oil pump drive so I can't drive the cam sync in the distributor location. So I just mounted the shutter wheel on the back of the belt drive distributor and put a housing around it to hold the sensor. This gives a nice clean way to get the cam signal.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2296279 04/29/17 09:57 PM 04/29/17 09:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 259 Scatchamatoon S Saskabusa enthusiast
Saskabusa enthusiast S Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 259 Scatchamatoon	Wow that looks great. Very innovative and well photographed. 1974 Roadrunner 1967 Charger

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2296856 04/30/17 10:09 PM 04/30/17 10:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	It took a while but I finally got some of my new cam sync units built. I sent one off to Rich to see what it looks like on his scope and I have another one mounted up in my 514 for some dyno testing. Turned out to be a nice little unit which doesn't take up much space at the front of the engine.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2296915 04/30/17 11:31 PM 04/30/17 11:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,118 Tulsa OK	Looks great! 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Bad340fish] #2297394 05/01/17 08:09 PM 05/01/17 08:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By Bad340fish Looks great! Thanks. I'm working on getting my 514 converted over to EFI and up and running on the dyno. In the process I'm learning a lot and designing a bunch of new parts. I have a few more parts in the design loop right now. I'll post pictures as I get the new designs sorted out.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2297472 05/01/17 10:19 PM 05/01/17 10:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	All real nice parts. really like the rear mounted cam sync on the high mount dist. Killer stuff as usual. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2300384 05/06/17 10:10 PM 05/06/17 10:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Rich spun the cam sync on his scope and reported a nice clean waveform so it looks like we're ready to fire up the engine.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2300399 05/06/17 10:30 PM 05/06/17 10:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Cool, so it is a 5 volt sensor as used on a OE car, and it looks like it was tested at 12 volts.(5v/div) Guess that answers my question about being able to use it with either ref voltage. Nice work. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2300513 05/07/17 01:50 AM 05/07/17 01:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Here is an expanded view of the falling edge. Rich was checking to see how clean the edge signal is.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2300695 05/07/17 01:28 PM 05/07/17 01:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	Looks as good as you would need with any system. That sensor must have a resistor in it, and would probably be even better with a resistor calibrated to 12v. I bet testing the sensor at 5v would show an even sharper drop. I don't think any system is looking for drops measured in nanoseconds! "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2300927 05/07/17 10:30 PM 05/07/17 10:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 562 Ohio L lockjaw-express mopar
lockjaw-express mopar L Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 562 Ohio	Ok, Andy and Rich, I want to buy Two (2) of your trigger wheels...one for my Hemi, and one for my RB 440. I want my engines to start right up, without having to turn over a half dozen times. Rich or Andy, please send me a PayPal invoice. Thank you, Mark PS, I have the MSD flying magnet wheels, and yours look like they are an EXACT replacement.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: TRENDZ] #2310153 05/24/17 01:20 AM 05/24/17 01:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By TRENDZ Cool, so it is a 5 volt sensor as used on a OE car, and it looks like it was tested at 12 volts.(5v/div) Guess that answers my question about being able to use it with either ref voltage. Nice work. The Holley EFI harness that I'm using drives the crank and cam sensors at 12 volts. However, Holley also sells harnesses that drive the sensors at 5 volts. So I guess you just have to pay attention to that if it matters. From what I've seen, most of the aftermarket sensors work up to 20 volts. Not sure about OEM stuff, it might be less tolerant. The Ford Explorer sensor that I used seemed to work just fine at 12 volts. The crank sensor I used was from Holley and it is rated for 8 to 20 volts.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: lockjaw-express] #2310154 05/24/17 01:22 AM 05/24/17 01:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Originally Posted By lockjaw-express Ok, Andy and Rich, I want to buy Two (2) of your trigger wheels...one for my Hemi, and one for my RB 440. I want my engines to start right up, without having to turn over a half dozen times. Rich or Andy, please send me a PayPal invoice. Thank you, Mark PS, I have the MSD flying magnet wheels, and yours look like they are an EXACT replacement. I have a batch of trigger wheels out for plating right now. I'm not set up on paypal but if you want to send me a check or a money order I can handle that. Shoot me a PM if you still need a Mopar bolt pattern 36-1 trigger wheel. I also have BB Chevy bolt pattern wheels if you are running a Chevy bolt pattern on your damper. If you are currently using a MSD flying magnet setup then you'll need to switch sensors. Holley sells a Hall effect sensor with 3/4-16 thread that will screw right in place. If you are using a Holley EFI system then you will also need to reconfigure your ignition setup to 36-1. My trigger wheels are marked with TDC and 7th tooth. So just put the engine at TDC firing and then move the sensor so it is lined up with the line on the 7th tooth and your ignition should be close enough to fire up. Last edited by AndyF; 05/24/17 01:25 AM.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: lockjaw-express] #2310156 05/24/17 01:29 AM 05/24/17 01:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Here is what the trigger wheel looks like at TDC. The pointer is at TDC and so is the tooth with the dimple. The sensor is pointed at the 7th tooth after the gap. The 7th tooth has a line on it to make it easier to identify when you are bending over the fender. If you set it up for the center of the tooth then you'll need to adjust your timing by a couple of degrees depending on whether you pick rising or falling edge. Once you know which way you are going then you can set the sensor to the correct edge of the tooth.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2310157 05/24/17 01:34 AM 05/24/17 01:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I should point out that the double o-ring design worked just fine with the 12 inches of pan vacuum that I was running. The Ford Explorer sensor is a sealed unit and by putting an o-ring under it the entire housing was sealed tight. So that was a good thing to double check. I didn't have the capability to test it at a higher vacuum level but I might be able to do that next time out.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2315727 06/03/17 08:38 PM 06/03/17 08:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I sent the first batch of trigger wheels out to be nickel plated. I think they turned out really well. The nickel plating is fairly expensive but it looks really nice and it should last for a long time.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2316611 06/05/17 01:40 PM 06/05/17 01:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB E Efidart enthusiast
Efidart enthusiast E Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB	I just put mine on in place of the MSD trigger and it fit perfectly. I enlarged the holes for the 3/8's bolts but that's about it. TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car. Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015 Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017 Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2317223 06/06/17 05:00 PM 06/06/17 05:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 562 Ohio L lockjaw-express mopar
lockjaw-express mopar L Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 562 Ohio	EFI Dart, After converting to Andy's new 36-1 Trigger wheel, did you notice any difference in quicker starts (less cranking)? Also, any other "seat of the pants" differences? Currently, I have the MSD flying magnet wheels with the Holley Hall effect sensors like you had. Thanks, Mark

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: lockjaw-express] #2317263 06/06/17 06:33 PM 06/06/17 06:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I have 36-1 wheels in stock if you still want to buy one. I have both the 3 bolt BB Chevy wheel and the Mopar wheel on hand. Just PM me for info. The dealers like Mancini and Hughes haven't gotten these parts into inventory yet but Rich at FAST Man Efi will be a dealer for my stuff going forward so you can buy from him. Nice thing about buying from Rich is that you can get tech help from him as well as access to other EFI parts. Up to you......

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2317377 06/06/17 10:06 PM 06/06/17 10:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 562 Ohio L lockjaw-express mopar
lockjaw-express mopar L Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 562 Ohio	Yup. I am already a customer of Rich and Trendz...both are great help, and great to buy from! Mark

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2318655 06/09/17 08:22 PM 06/09/17 08:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Rich and I are testing a new solution. If we can get this to work then an EFI conversion for Mopar guys will get easier. This is a combined cam and crank sensor in one drop in unit. Rich spun it on his scope and it looked perfect. We just need to build a new harness and I'll be able to fire up my dyno engine with this unit to see how it works.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2320310 06/12/17 11:49 PM 06/12/17 11:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit... rumblefish72 enthusiast
rumblefish72 enthusiast Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...	OK - where's the waiting line for the EPM Puck Adapter? I'm putting your 36-1 wheel on my wedge so I can run wasted spark. The plan for the Hemi is COP using the puck 24x signal. BTW - the Ford Coyote dumb pencil coils are pretty much a direct fit on my Hemi. Pic #1 has the block with a Mallory Unilite Distributor that I planned to cut down and mount the Puck to. Pic #2 is the Ford Coyote Pencil Coil in place on the Hemi. The last pic is the comparison in length between the FireCore plug wire boot and the Coyote pencil coil. How do you orient the slot in the puck so that you can set the engine to TDC, align the oil pump drive slot front to back and have the timing close when you drop the puck in with the wiring pigtail coming out towards the centerline of the engine? I was going to hook the whole system up to spin in my milling machine with a degree wheel (cam degrees) and hook a timing light up to the cylinder #1 coil to see where it fired on the degree wheel. That should get me close enough that I can adjust the EPM housing so the computer timing shows the same as the timing wheel timing light signal. You probably have a smarter way to do this. The EPM doesn't really have any timing or alignment marks on it besides where the wiring pigtail comes out of the housing. It would be nice if you could just align the tab on the rotatin shaft coming out of the EPM with where the wiring pigtail comes out and know that the single cam pulse comes out there. 1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2320348 06/13/17 01:49 AM 06/13/17 01:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Yeah I have it figured out on how to align the puck with the oil driveshaft so everything is in the correct location at startup. Kind of hard to explain and I don't have the pictures loaded yet but I figured out how to do it. Basically it all depends on where the sensor inside the housing is located and then you work from there.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2320352 06/13/17 02:44 AM 06/13/17 02:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	rumblefish72 What ECU are you planning on using? That will determine your setup procedure. All you need is a DVM connected to the cam output from the puck. Your pic shows FAST throttle bodies but to run COP with FAST you would use the XIM. Also, once you have both cam and crank signals, you don't need to run waste spark.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2320376 06/13/17 06:32 AM 06/13/17 06:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI T TRENDZ master
TRENDZ master T Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI	I'm curious to see timing stability with this all in one setup. I tried something similar(location wise) on my car a long time ago. I was using a Jesel belt drive on the engine, and still had 2 degree timing drift when using a 120-4 wheel (2.75")inside the distributor housing. I assume that the slop was at the oil pump drive gear/ shaft tang. I can only assume a timing chain driven cam would exaggerate the error. After my little experiment, I personally would not trust a distributor location driven ignition pickup for any serious competition engine. This IS a great, simple solution for a street bruiser/weekend warrior type build. It is very nice to see the great quality components being put out there, but the crank trigger wheel would be my personal choice. "use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2320509 06/13/17 11:41 AM 06/13/17 11:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	I wouldn't be surprised to find the same thing. As soon as we get some details sorted out I'll run the module on my dyno mule and we'll see how it does. It might turn out that the all in one setup is for the street/strip and bracket guys while the crank trigger plus cam sync is for the more serious race engines. The all in one solution does test well up past 10,000 rpm but maybe in an engine the cam drive and oil pump harmonics will cause some issues. Rumblefish - no need to cut down a distributor to run the module. If your ECU will handle the 24x1 signal puck from AEM then I can sell you an adapter for a Hemi. I have a few on hand now from my first prototype run.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Mopar_Rich] #2320987 06/14/17 08:44 AM 06/14/17 08:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit... rumblefish72 enthusiast
rumblefish72 enthusiast Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...	Hi Rich - the plan is to use the Coyote coils with the FAST XIM 3013172. Sorry for the wasted spark confusion - that's going on a different engine. I didn't want Andy to get confused since I Recently purchased a 36-1 trigger wheel from him. 1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: rumblefish72] #2321039 06/14/17 11:35 AM 06/14/17 11:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	Originally Posted By rumblefish72 Hi Rich - the plan is to use the Coyote coils with the FAST XIM 3013172. Sorry for the wasted spark confusion - that's going on a different engine. I didn't want Andy to get confused since I Recently purchased a 36-1 trigger wheel from him. The 3012172 is for standalone COP applications, meaning there's no EFI ECU, as would be the case with a carb.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: Mopar_Rich] #2322039 06/16/17 09:22 AM 06/16/17 09:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit... rumblefish72 enthusiast
rumblefish72 enthusiast Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 248 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...	Maybe we should start another "AEM EPM Puck" Thread ... We're starting to get a pretty good highjack on the 36-1 thread and given all the views (8562 and counting) on the 36-1 thread, there will be a big audience for a simple way to get a 24x1 signal onto B/RB/Hemi. Rich, Yes - I see that FAST 3012172 is standalone. My plan for COP on the Hemi is still in the research phase. You and AndyF got me all excited when I saw that you were working on an adapter for the EPM. I'm trying to finish off the wasted spark system for my Wedge right now but I'm always looking for parts for the next several projects that I have in mind. When my COP plan is in place, I'll send you guys (Rich and Andy) an email with the specifics and ask for comments before I (mis)spend any real money. And with my current understanding of how things work, I agree with TRENDZ comments on accuracy ... it seems to me that taking the actual timing signal from the crank (trigger wheel or crank trigger) and then getting a cam pulse within the window of degrees allowed from something like the Ford or Jeep cam synch sensor would make for the most accurate overall system. But I wonder if the circuitry of the ignition controller smooths out the timing signal from the crank trigger or the 24 blip signal from the 24x1? And then as mentioned, you can have harmonics in the cam rotation even with a belt drive. I wonder if that is big enough to be observed. I have good measuring equipment but nothing with that type of resolution. In any event, once I get my ECU timing to agree with my timing light timing, I'll go back and double check that periodically to see if the timing light timing drifts a degree or two behind the ECU indicated timing to see if the bronze distributor drive gear is wearing or the timing belt is stretching. Last edited by rumblefish72; 06/16/17 02:44 PM. 1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2322124 06/16/17 12:17 PM 06/16/17 12:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA Mopar_Rich top fuel
Mopar_Rich top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA	Our EPM Puck will be 8X crank 1X cam, not 24X. Not all EFI systems can handle 24X since that was a short lived GM approach. But any EFI system can handle the typical 8X crank like a normal distributor would create. The EPM puck will be a great solution for anyone wanting to go to CNP (Coil-Near-Plug on a street engine. We agree that for an all-out race engine the separate cam and crank sensors are a more accurate way to go. Nevertheless - most of my sales and support are hot street engines where the user wants to get the benefits of CNP but hey don't want or need to add a separate crank trigger. The PUCK will handle those needs very well. And it is so small that it does not hit aftermarket heads like the larger dual-sync distributors do.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2326545 06/25/17 05:34 PM 06/25/17 05:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB E Efidart enthusiast
Efidart enthusiast E Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB	Well got the engine running again but I ended up putting the old flying magnet back on. The 36-1 wheel does not clear a stock style 440 source water pump housing. The OD is a little too big.. was a good thought. Might be able to shave down the OD on a lathe as it's maybe a 1/4" too big OD. TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car. Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015 Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017 Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2326571 06/25/17 06:37 PM 06/25/17 06:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	Right, the OD of the trigger wheel needs to be larger than the OD of the damper or else the sensor might get confused at what it is looking at. Unfortunately, when the trigger wheel gets larger than the damper then it doesn't fit the stock water pump housing. Most guys don't care since most guys are using an electric water pump when running a crank trigger setup but on a street car I can see why you are running a stock pump. I do have a solution for that but it isn't ready yet.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #2326656 06/25/17 10:32 PM 06/25/17 10:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB E Efidart enthusiast
Efidart enthusiast E Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 AB	I use the CVR drop in pump which seems to work better and outflow anything else I've seen on the market. Let me know what your thinking for the stock WP setup as the wheels are the nicest I've ever seen yet and fit perfectly for spacing. Wonder if just lathing it down and running my trigger logger to see if it sees any sync loss. TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car. Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015 Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017 Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #3266512 10/26/24 11:59 AM 10/26/24 11:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2024 Posts: 2 Cudahy B BussinGold member
BussinGold member B Joined: Oct 2024 Posts: 2 Cudahy	Sorry to grave dig hopefully you're still active. I'm looking at buying this from a distributor and have a question they couldn't answer. I have a 383 and looking to keep my a/c. Is there different off the shelf pulleys available? I see you said the original is made by doty, but I couldn't find it.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: BussinGold] #3266553 10/26/24 03:17 PM 10/26/24 03:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	You don't need 36-1 with AC. Just buy a Dual Sync distributor if you have a street car.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #3266586 10/26/24 07:58 PM 10/26/24 07:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2024 Posts: 2 Cudahy B BussinGold member
BussinGold member B Joined: Oct 2024 Posts: 2 Cudahy	Originally Posted by AndyF You don't need 36-1 with AC. Just buy a Dual Sync distributor if you have a street car. The car is setup for road racing and track day events. Pretty set on a crank trigger. Can you give me any other info on the pulley?

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: BussinGold] #3266591 10/26/24 08:26 PM 10/26/24 08:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,310 Oregon	You'll most likely need a custom pulley If you go with a Mopar pattern. You might find what you need if you use a Chevy BB pattern damper. There are a lot more choices for pulleys if you switch to the BBC bolt pattern. There is hardly anything available for Mopar engines. Last edited by AndyF; 10/26/24 08:28 PM.

Re: 36-1 crank trigger for EFI [Re: AndyF] #3266752 10/27/24 07:28 PM 10/27/24 07:28 PM
Joined: May 2019 Posts: 732 Lake Villa Il INTMD8 super stock
INTMD8 super stock Joined: May 2019 Posts: 732 Lake Villa Il	Fwiw I use a 917470E ATI damper with Andys wheel and I had ASP make an underdrive crank pulley for it. Originally I just modified an original crank pulley but it was blowing belts off at 7800. https://www.autospecialties.com/contact/ If that wouldn't work for you they could make something that does. 69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700

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