Hi Gene, or anyone else. I was going to send you a PM but in a effort to help the next smuck as dumb as me I thought a new thread would be best. Reprimands for any breach of etiquette excepted.

I have decided that I am going to have to use dropped spindles on my Dakota sub-frame transplant (in the weeds) and I see that both Belltech and SPI (which is best please?) have a different dropped spindle for the early and late generation 1 Dakotas.

It must be a fairly insignificant difference because as you have mentioned the latter spindles can be changed to the early 5 stud rotors with maybe with a caliper / pad change as well.

My sub-frame is a '92, when I get new dropped spindles should I use the early or late ones?

Thanks, Old Ray.

Hope I don't confuse matters by posting this.....

Someone had posted an article on Dakota spindles awhile back (I forget who) and in one of the links, I came across the following bit of info that says the belltech spindles put the tie rod in the wrong place. For whatever reason, belltech shortened the mounting point.

Here's the LINK. Scroll down to the dropped spindles part.

I have no experience with dropped spindles, however, Industrial Chassis is good people. Any information they put out is probably about the most accurate info available.

Industrial Chassis developed a Dakota based aftermarket front suspension system early in the Dakota life cycle, because according to them, it was a far superior factory suspension system then any Mustang II system that was available. They felt people building street rods deserved the best suspension system available in a kit form. They sold the kits for several years, then discontinued them. Last I heard, they were producing (or preparing to produce) a new upgraded kit. I don't know where they are with that right now.

I would base any recommendations on what Industrial Chassis suggests. If you have concerns, call them, I don;t believe they will BS you. Gene

I believe the original Viper front suspension used the Dak as a starting point.

Thank you John, some good reading there that I will have to muddle my way through.

Thanks Gene and Supercuda.

It looks like Industrial Chassis likes the 87-90 spindle the best and the spi / airbagit dropped spindle because the belltech has a interference problem. I C says that both dropped spindles need a kit from them to fix a bump steer problem. (Hope I got all of that right?)

Old Ray.

That is pretty much the way i understood the I.C. info. Gene

Thanks Gene.
Here is a pix of the kit for any future archaeologist(diggers,surfers). Kit is $ 161.50 US dollars ($ 218.50 Cdn dollar ) plus ship.

These are the drop spindles on my Dakota front clip, I always assumed they were Belltech but now I wonder. Can anybody ID them for sure?

No, but thanks for the picture (just kidding).

Here is the way that I understand it, subject to correction of course, is that the early belltech dakota dropped spindle was cast off of a D150 part, and at some time it was changed to what they sell now. The early ones had the tie rod end arm more or less in the right place, the latter ones the arm was wrong and caused interference and major bump steer. The early ones would be like what you have and to my understanding the only other ones available (under many names) are made from the same casings as the early belltech.


So here is a crazy question, (blame the arthritis drugs) I think the original gen 1 spindle tie rod arm is a bolt on, could the back of the dropped spindle have the arm removed, machined, and the OEM arm bolted back on ? (damn hot rodders).

That seems like a lot of money for a couple of spacers to lower (or raise) the tie rod ends. Personally, I probably might be persuaded to bolt up what you have and see how bad the bump steer is, unless your current outer tie rod ends are wore out and need to be replaced anyway. If the bump steer is bad enough to bother you, you can always spring for the spacers at a later date.

I've been called a cheapskate before, so take my advice accordingly. Gene

Well, as one cheapskate to another, and as I am always a way ahead of myself, there is a plan "B". If I do the Dakota sub-frame transplant, then the front sheet metal that reattaches to the body and is adjusted to the new radiator support bracket/cross-member height will set the front bumper to ground distance height. In other words I might not have to use dropped spindles if I can get the frame / body low enough, the front end sure seems high on the donor truck right now though.

I have looked extensively for the definitive sub-frame measurement procedure without any success other then measure 20 times cut once advice (think I knew that) and cross (diamond) measuring and taking lots and lots of measurements before cutting. As neither frame is "level" at any given place as a datum point I think taking many height measurements of both frames on the same floor surface at ride height and putting the two pieces together using those measurements (welded temporary frame to floor posts) and squaring the sub-frame and centering front axle to original location. The only information that I read that was significant was that the upper control arm should slant back at 6 to 8 degrees, which would have helped on my last sub-frame job. Would an wheel alignment gauge with measurements off the Dakota give reference figures that could be re used/set as a guide before welding?
(Long winded, huh?)

I don't know exactly how or where you intend to make the splice between the Dakota and your original frame, but a lot of guys are putting the Dakota frame on top of the original frame and boxing it in. That will for sure give you a low front end!

If your original frame is still intact, and the Dakota is not yet cut, you could make a height measurement at the bottom of both front crossmembers.
If your original crossmember was 4" off the ground, and the Dakota was 6" off the ground, and you attach the Dakota clip 2" above the original frame (top to top, or bottom to bottom), your ride height will be the same as the original. If you wanted to lower the front end another inch from the original height, you would attach the Dakota clip 3" above the original frame. Of course, all this would be dependent of having enough frame clearance between the original frame and the car floor to have the clearance needed to raise up the Dakota clip as much as needed. You also have to consider how much drop both frames have in the rails, between the crossmember and the splice point.

The easiest way to do this is to have both frames stripped of drive train and body work, and set them side by side to compare for the best splice location, and the best height adjustment to get the results you need. You know how much you like, or want to change the original frame, the trick is to put the original frame at the height you want, and adapt the Dakota attachment point to get or keep it there without changing the Dakota operating height.

Words of warning (or don't do like I did once).
If you want to lower the front end of the car, the Dakota clip needs to be attached higher, or above the original frame.

If you want to raise the front end, the Dakota clip needs to attach lower or below the original frame. If your like me, your mind will want to tell you this is not true, take my word, its fact.

A 1" change at the firewall makes a much bigger change at the front bumper (this is also fact). Gene

OK, so just in case my explanation wasn't confusing enough, I thought I would show off my artistic and drafting skills as well. LOL!

A quick sketch that hopefully covers what I wrote about above.
Gene

gene, your artistic skills show you paid attention in art class while i, and a bunch of cohorts, "flipped for nickles" in the back of the room. your illustration shows the clip at the original frame's ride height after the graft, correct ?

[quote poorboy]the trick is to put the original frame at the height you want, and adapt the Dakota attachment point to get or keep it there without changing the Dakota operating height.[/quote]

[quote moparx]your illustration shows the clip at the original frame's ride height after the graft, correct ?[/quote]

Thanks guys, Gene that is right and great info that helps very much with the planning and preparation process and I'm sure that Picasso is shaking in his grave.

Moparx, that is a important question.

Just for info for future readers(?), from my error on my last transplant that was out of adjustable alignment limits (not by much) and I am going to get it right this time.

I think I did find the some (almost) definitive information;

It goes without mentioning that the sub-frame can pivot up and down almost limitlessly around the center line of the front wheels so there must be some kind of reference point.

There is, the Dakota sub-frame must be installed at the original ride height and position so that it is within alignment adjustment limits. This has to be done, before any disassembly, by locking the coil springs down at normal road load in place with all thread rod through the shock mount holes or removing the spring and installing all thread rod locked in place and;

Before any disassembly take angle measurements of the upper and lower control arms from front to rear and from inside to the outside. (and a perfect excuse to buy a digital inclinometer)

As Gene says, set the stock frame at the desired ride height and match the sub-frame set to the recorded A arm angles plus the 20 other measurements (square, wheel base, etc).

This is where the frames have to spliced and would therefore have to be within alignment specs. (I think?)

Sounds like you have a good handle on the splice requirements.
And yes, a digital level should be in the tool box. I have two in the shop, one is a 24" assembly and the other is just the 'module'. Mine are older 'Smart Level' brand (Wedge Innovations)and have served me well for 20 years or so. Plenty of new models in the market place including some with magnetic bases...I might need another one....
The biggest issue that I have run into is deciding just how much accuracy I need...is 1/10 of a degree necessary...?

Thanks wayfarer.

You are correct. The original frame needs to be at the original (or the desired) height.

Another thing that will aid in having the Dakota clip at the correct angle for suspension geometry would be maintaining the same level of the upper control arms.

Assuming the Dakota was close to proper wheel alignment, the upper control arms are attached at the front and rear of the arm, on each side. One could place a short straight edge across the the control arms at the bushing mount area and determine an angle the control arm sits (front to back) with a magnetic angle finder (could do both sides). This angle, will not change through the suspension travel, but it would probably be best if the angle was determined at the same ride height. Once you determine what height the Dakota clip needs to be at the crossmember, you should be able to rotate the clip to achieve the degrees of angle the control arms need to set at. Do I need to draw another picture? OK more art work! Gene

you really are good at art ! i believe that angle is the "anti dive" angle, which, if i'm not totally out there, is to prevent front end drop when the brakes are applied. this is in relation to the plane of the lower control arm. it will stay as the engineers designed it if you keep the upper arm as your drawing shows. it may be 90* as in the illustration, but could be a 2* or more tilt to the rear in relation to the lower arm. as you said before, this will get you at the original ride height. from there, you can lower, or raise as you see fit, but keep the upper arm angle the same as it was in the dak chassis.

Moparx, the 90 degrees was just for illustration purposes and has little or no bearing on reality.

If the suspension and frame around the control arms are intact, and the "anti-dive" angle is correct, and the clip is welded straight and centered and level side to side, to the rest of the frame it is being attached to, the alignment should be within adjustment range. The other biggest concern is the finished ride height, and we have covered that.

I've only done about 10 frame clips of various makes at this point, but all have been able to be correctly aligned. Its not as hard as some want you to believe. Careful measurements, proper reinforcing of the joint area, and quality welds will make a good frame clip. It then becomes a matter of choosing the best frames to splice together for the best fit. Gene

100% correct gene ! there are many times i wished i went a different direction than designing and fabbing the suspension on my humpback. the front suspension took over three and a half years alone to do. the rear is just a common ladder bar setup, so was easy because i just had to fab a crossmember and the attaching brackets, plus the upper shock mounts. the ladder bars and the lower shock mounts were swap meet bargains. that left the rear housing mounts and the diagonal link and mounts to fab. that stuff was super easy. the front, however, took lots of books and experimenting with cardboard replicas to get the camber curve and bump steer within very tight dimensions. i firmly believe this will go down the road like a string, but i shoulda stuck with my original plan for a straight axle instead of listening to a buddy insisting on an independent setup. this is only one example why this project has lasted over 40years ! i just hope i got a day or two left to see it go down the street !