I saw the latest FiTech 2x4 Dual Quad Go EFI in the latest Mopar Muscle magazine, and it stated that it supports 1200 HP.

I am building a 605 Hemi with the Stage V dual quad intake, and was planning to use dual Edelbrock 800 cfm AVS carbs or custom Holley 770 CFM 4160 in an inline configuration...

So now I see the new FiTech dual quad 2x4 Go EFI, and I am wondering if that would be the best of all worlds???

Any opinions on my above choices, or is there something better for my 605...as it should be able to provide 800-900HP, Solid Lifter Roller Cam, 290/298 @ .050 and .700" lift. 12.5:1 CR.

Thanks for your advice, Mark

You are not going to get 900hp out of a small runner intake, that is for sure. Just not enough volume to support that kind of hp on one of those. At the very least, get the open plenum dual quad...I believe the Stage V is the open one, but there are dual planes out there, stay away from those.

I have not looked at the Fitech stuff, but efi that self learns and can keep you in your target afr will be best. I have run FAST efi in the past and like it a lot, and the Holley efi seems to be even better based on people with experience with both. The big hemi will like fuel....a lot of fuel!

Interesting little article on the Fitech....I would also recomend the Modman intake for your big Hemi, we dyno'd one on a 572 Hemi and it works well.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1603...er-and-cheaper/

Here is the thread on my buddies 572 Hemi

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2042917

Here is the thread on my 605 Hemi build

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...ld-updated.html

Why not weld bosses on each runner with injectors instead
of throttle bodies.. just run one throttle body with the
electronics and the second one just for air

Hi Dragula & Mike,

I bought the open plenum stage v dual quad, and that is what Barton told me to buy. He told me ho have it ported and it will make gobs of HP. He told me to stay away from the Indy open madman..,

Barton also told me to go with the Holley FI runners with the dual throttle bodies, but that was before the Fitech 2x4 1200 hp version was out.

I still have time, but would like to know what wold be best for street/strip.

Thanks!

Modman has the bosses already.....Ezeepeezee

Most efi "experts" lean towards port injection and dry intakes. A 605 hemi isn't a "budget build" so that's the route I'd go. I'd probably go coil-on-plug too, what the hell !!!

Well, you can have more than needed and it won't hurt engine performance, but in a wet flow environment, it can...So that is the advantage of port injection. I have ran both, and like both.

In his case he is already runner limited, so maximizing port size will do nothing but help make more Hp...

For the Modman, or madman, I did not get a look at the plugs after a pull on the dyno, but if there is any tougher combo to make over 740hp on a 572 Hemi with a 6-pak & a Modman, I don't know what it is. It actually worked pretty well considering.

So back to your build. I ran a FAST EZ-efi on a warmed over 360 in a prostreet application and almost no vacuum, and I loved it over a carb every day...I had an air-gap intake on it, and milled the whole center divider out, and then put a 1" open spacer on underneth, and it really woke it up....I would feel pretty confident with the Fitech if its anything like the FAST systems. Let it learn and wire it exactly the way they tell you, no short cuts!

For fuel supply, there is one shortcut you can take, and you may or may not want to. I ran and do run a hybrid style return/dead head system. I run all the fuel up to the regulator, usually on the lower passenger frame rail, and then return it from there, but I supply the TB or carb with a dead headed fuel supply from the regulator....So up to the regulator it returns everything, but up to the TB, its dead headed....You might want to do this to keep it simple, but then again, it is a 605 and AN8 is probably the smallest I would consider using. Not sure what AN6 will top out at so I would stay bigger.

I use that now on my 605, but with a carb...Only drawback is, the A1000 pump can put out a lot of pressure, any hickup in the fuel system and the carb gets a big hit....But, I can switch back to efi with a simple change of a spring in the regulator.

Hi Dragula,

Thank you for the pointers...

I have the A3000 pump kit mounted in the trunk, fed with 2 an10 lines from the sump, then the return from the pump to the tank return, then an10 up to the aeromotive pro stock regulator that is deadheaded. Then I will run an an 10 to the Fitech fuel station, from there an an10 to both throttle bodies.

The fuel station has the high pressure pump, and receives the high volume low pressure from my existing fuel system.

The other alternative is direct port injection, with a Holley efi unit and all the wiring...the idle vacuum at idle will be around 7-10 inches would be my guess.

In the interim, I could install it on my RB 440 that also has 7" at idle.

What do you think?

Thank you, Mark

I run the Holley Dominator...an8 supply and return..
with the injectors in the lower part of the runners
you can move more air for more power... if your injectors
are large enough you wont have an issue... I do prefer a
return system.. ALL THE TIME...keeps cooler fuel up front
EDIT
Mine is on a 416ci.. just had it out today and it ran
STRONG.. and I didnt even open the elec dumps

Well, I went and got myself in over my head, but I ordered the Fitech 2x4 power adder system from Jegs, and the Power center HP fuel pump system on ebay. the Power center is on back order for 6-8 weeks, so I paid the shipping hostage on ebay to get it right away.

I talked to the Fitech people, and they told me the Power Center pump system would support the direct port rail system at a later date, should I want to use theirs or Holley system. They told me I would be very happy with their throttle body system.

I really like the dual quad look...maybe I am just stuck in the past ;-))

br, Mark

sweet

You could always buy my system I have for sale...Fits a Hemi with 16 bolt intake!

Hey Dragula,

Beautiful! won't fit under the hood ;-))

BR, Mark

Thats why you put the hole in the hood... to get the
air in that big thing on top... LOL

Hey Mike,

I don't think Randy would like me cutting a big hole in his beautiful hood...well maybe he would?

BR, Mark

If he seen that he wouldnt have batted a eye ball...
we would have said.. hell yeah lets do it

I'm surprised the Mod Man works, it's a shoebox with stubs attached, like a 1950s Crower U-Fab.
Must be some voo-doo inside to justify the price...

Advantages to individual port injectors (vs. wet manifold):
1. you can adjust each cylinder mixture separately for both distribution and temperature - with a wet manifold you're back to ditches & popsicle sticks
2. clean air will follow the vacuum pulses, where suspended fuel droplets will fall out, then re-attach and go somewhere you don't want

Just curious: no V8 engine has its intake ports directly opposite each other (#1 and 2, etc.), so why is the manifold plenum a rectangle? Shouldn't it be a trapezoid, with the short sides (front & rear) and port runners directly aligned with the ports, and the carburetors likewise (angled)? Same length from venturi to valve left vs. right?

Polyspheric,

Do you know what parts cables that I would need to buy if going the Holley efi port injector system that would also be self learning for both street/strip?

I am open to all suggestions!

Thank you, Mark

I use Locar for both throttle and kick down on my 518
and to Poly... on the manifolds I build the carbs
are turned at a angle so they all line up over the port

Does too......lol.

Well, I stand corrected😀😀😀😀

SO, the butterfly`s point forward and the back of the cowl takes in air? OR, does it get air through the grill..........seems WAY wrong to me...........

Dem headlights!

Dragula & Mike,

So if I decide to buy the Holley FI, it looks like I would buy the Holley Dominator ECU, the Fuel Injector wiring harness, Fuel injector rail kit that includes the injectors...

Would I need to run two O2 sensors, one on each side of the headers?

The harness kit for the o2 sensors, two 1000 cfm throttle bodies...but Holley sells 4 styles?

Anything else I am missing, since I do not see a complete kit for sale for direct port injection...and will the Dominator ECU self learn?

Sorry for all the questions, but if the Holley system is better than the FiTech, I would like to know before I open the box.

Thank you, Mark

Why not run a 2000cfm 4500 throttle body on a single plane Dominator intake with the Holley ECU and a Vaporworks CTS-V module with PWM? Keep it simple. If you need more CFM than that, look at some of these.

https://accufabracing.com/throttle-bodies/racing-throttle-bodies/four-barrel-throttle-bodies

I think it's a no-brainer to run EFI on these big Hemis (if you have the $$$). I have most of the parts to build a 604. My plan is to run two of the EZ-EFI throttle bodies on a Stage V dual-quad intake. I already have the EZ-EFI single quad kit and a dual quad upgrade kit. Yes - I'd rather run a dry manifold but I already have the parts for a wet manifold setup. Most engine builders I talked to suggested that the Stave V inline dual quad was a better design than the Indy Modman. The Modman is completely open in the plenum (all 8 ports) and just has short stubs that lead to the ports in the head. The Stage V has a front 4 cylinders plenum and a back 4 plenum with a smallish rectangular hole connecting the two plenums. The Stage V port matched to the heads is the way I plan to go. Plus Tim at FHO has a Shaker baseplate that fits the Stage V intake manifold carb spacing. I'd also like to get a good look at the new Eddy dual quad HEMI manifold.

I'm not sure if the EZ-EFI ECU will handle the low vacuum of a big roller cam. You might have to go to the FAST XFI ECU or Sportsman XFI. I haven't read enough about the FiTech to understand if low vacuum is a problem for that ECU. The EZ-EFI self-learning code sees that low vacuum and thinks that you have your foot on the gas pedal. I would have thought that the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) would override the low MAP signal in the self-learning code and the ECU would know that you are just trying to idle. I've discussed this with Rich (Fastmanefi) and he told me that big cam low vacuum is an issue for the EX-EFI ECU.

I'm also waiting to read more about the Carlisle give-away HEMI. That's a 572 with dual quad EFI. I heard that it made high 800's HP at 6200 RPM and 700+ torque from 4000-6200 RPM. HP #'s were still climbing but since they used a hydraulic roller, they shut it down at 6200. That motor has the Eddy heads which out of the box, flow as good as my MCH ported Stage V Heads See: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1603-win-this-hemi-part-1-the-572ci-short-block/

Somebody mentioned COP (Coil On Plug) ... the coils used in the Ford Coyote fit right into my Hemi spark plug tubes and connect to the spark plug. I was thinking of using the Coyote coils sold by AEM along with their "puck" that does crank and cam timing signals. You can pretty easily modify an old distributor to mount the puck and you get a clean solution for 24x crank and 1x cam signal. Then wire all that into the FAST EFI ECU and you're in the 21st century!!

Hi Rumblefish,

I have already bought the FiTech Command Center fuel pump kit, and at this point I will run that with the Holley HP ECU kit, with the better O2 sensor. It is the "N" Kit.

I will have Bob at Modern Cylinder heads modify/weld in the bungs and mount the injectors and fuel rail for my Stage V intake. I am also planning on having the manifold portmatched and smoothed out by Bob.

Should I keep my 440RB engine, I will just buy the FiTech 800HP dual quad kit, however it may be put in another Mopar car at some point, so that will now be on the back burner.

I am still waiting a call back from Holley on whether I should buy the Holly Dominator ECU and run two of the O2 sensors.

Thank you all for the pointers, Mark

I have the FITech 1200HP unit on my RB. I would steer clear of the command center based on a few things I have seen. Just run an full return EFI fuel system.

Hi Outlawd,

I already bought the Command Center...so what exactly have you seen?

Thanks, Mark

Chevy site, and long thread, but he had issues with the vent overflowing with fuel I believe. They don't seem to have a separate vent and return. Surge tanks generally have a return for the low pressure system.

Some people have had issues, others have not. I already had EFI capable pumps, so I didn't need anything extra.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/89-efi/8...all-w-pics.html

Well, after all of the great information, I just finished running my return line to the fuel cell, and decided on the Holley Dominator ECU kit with dual O2 sensor support.

Holley made a good argument for having a dual O2 system, and MPFI.

I will just sell the FiTech FCC on ebay...wont lose any money as they are on back order from Fitech.

Ray Barton also told me that the Holley MPFI was far superior that anything he has installed.

Thanks, Mark

Keep us in the loop as your implementation progresses. I want to learn from your experiences.

Sounds like the way to go with such a radical engine.
I haven't got my FiTech, they are on back order, but it is for a much milder engine. I think large cams with a lot of overlap and intake reversion can upset the MAP sensor, and the software needs to be pretty advanced to handle that (for speed/density), or just use Alpha-N fueling? I'm not sure the FiTech software does Alpha-N?

Hi Rumblefish and 451Mopar,

I will keep all involved...also, there are a lot of pieces and parts to the Holley systems, so it will be a learning experience for me too. I am wanting to run dual HTK O2 sensors for better control that the Dominator supports. The other thing the Dominator supports is fly by wire throttle, however I don't know if I like that or not...

I do not know what Alpha-N is, and if it is supported by the Holley systems...anyone want to chime in?

BR, Mark

Speed density uses the MAP sensor (along with the other sensor inputs) to figure airflow under different loads and air conditions.
Alpha-N is a simpler calibration based on throttle position and RPM, sort of like the old mechanical fuel injection systems.

I only know a little about the Holley Dominator, but it is a top of the line ECU that will do either, and maybe even a combination?

I have the FAST 2.0 ECU for the Coronet, and the Holley is supposed to be even better.

The FiTech will be on the Jensen.

As 451Mopar said Alpha-N is TPS vs RPM. It is NOT the way to tune a modern EFI system unless you have no other choice. It's fine for all out race engines but you can't get drivabilty since it has no way of sensing load. Speed Density is preferred, but it can be tricky if you have low vacuum at idle. The Holley Dominator does allow Alpha-N at idle and then transitions to Speed Density. Although that is cool, I have never needed to use that feature even on all out drag race motors.

Thank you Rich & 451Mopar,

I see that Holley sells MAP sensors that are 1,2,3,5,3.5 & 7 Bar...do you know which ones I will need to buy? and why the different pressure types?

I think I know have almost a complete list of parts to order.

Since my car/engine is a Street/Strip car, my engine is closer to a race engine to be driven on the street. It is not a cruiser car but a blast around the neighborhood car that will be taken to the strip ;-))

Thank you.

1-bar = NA (no boost), 2-bar to 16 PSI boost, 3-bar to 32 PSI boost, etc, etc, ...

Hi Rich, thank you!

I won't be running any boost or Nitrus, so I will buy the 1 bar.


BR, Mark

Thanks Mopar_Rich. I'm still new to EFI, but trying to learn more as I go. I might have some questions on connecting a flex fuel sensor to the FAST 2.0?
I was looking over the manual for the FiTech and the tuning options look pretty good, but the AFR and Timing matrix are only 3x3? I'm guessing the software is interpolating the 3x3 matrix at finer granularity?

I guess I am happy with the FITech, but this is an instance where you get what you pay for...There is a complete lack of documentation, and no information on the tuning software. For some reason mine did not include the drivers to connect the handheld to my PC, and they haven't been able to send this to me after 2 months of back and forth.

The handheld unit has a 3x3 matrix. It does interpoltae between the 3x3, but one thing I don't like is the breakpoints are 45, 95, 180kPa MAP. So for a NA engine, you have only a 2x3, plus an "idle" point

I had read somewhere that in the PC software you could modify the base fuel/spark tables which were supposedly 10x12. I have found the breakpoint definition arrays for spark and VE, however, I have not been able to find the Spark and VE tables that correspond with theses breakpoints. They have 4 different cam settings, each with its own ~9x9 VE mult surf. Once I drove around and collected some data, I started modifying the VE mult surf by the long term fuel adaptation to get the base surface closer. I am +/- 5% fuel trims now, where previously it was correcting up to 30%.

I think they system is plenty capable for a basic TBI retrofit, but it sounds like they offer no advanced tuning support. I think the intended market is essentially they guy who bolts on the box stock carb, is too lazy to get it tuned correctly, gives up and thinks EFI will solve all his problems.

Another complaint/comment, is the data logging. it has pre-loaded data log windows, and you can only record the 20-30 channels in that window at any time, you cannot record everything at once.

There is absolutely no reason to NOT run speed density. That's what I use on virtually everything. The Corvette Drag Week car from Canada has an 875" 5.3 bore space motor, that makes nearly 1700hp on nuts. It is speed density, coil on plug and even has drive by wire throttle bodies

Monte,

Are you running the Holley Dominator? And are you running dual O2 sensors?

Holley seems to think that dual HTK 02 sensors would be the way to go...since the Holly HP ECU only supports one 02 sensor, it looks like you need to spend another $1000.00 to get the dual support, and a boat load of inputs that I will never need.

What do you think?

BR, Mark

On ANY race car and most hot street cars.......Yes, I use the Dominator ECU and NTK sensors. I think you need on O2 on each bank. I even have a Dominator on my boat. The only vehicles I use one O2 on are turbo applications and some milder combos I consider daily drivers. I have HP ECUs on my jeep and my tow truck. But I ALWAYS opt for the NTK sensor.

We(Holley) realize that many want a second O2 option, but don't need all the extra inputs and outputs the Dominator gives. Along those lines, we are working on an "add on" that will allow a second O2 on an HP based system. But I don't know where that stands at the moment

Hi Monte,

Thank you for the information on the Holley ECU's. I am planning to run dual 1000 cfm throttle bodies, and Holley has two that I am interested in:

Holley 112-577 which is the machined billet unit that sells for around $560.00 each

Holley 112-588 which is the cast unit that sells for around $360.00 each.

Question is, which one is better in a dual configuration, and why?

Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to make sure I order correctly the first time.

Thank you again, Mark

Neither, they are air valves. Nothing more, nothing less. One is pretty

I Monte,

Ok, which ones would you buy in a dual configuration? Or is there something else you would recommend?


BR, Mark

Monte...well I talked with Jegs Tech support and he told me that 4 out of 10 Holley efi items that they sell comes back due to poor satisfaction. He also told me that the Billet throttle body is much better because of better throttle plate/shaft tolerances, and the cast ones come back with broken ears and are loose.

I was trying to get information on the new Holley EFI programmer/dash unit, because the 5.7" display unit is $716.00 and the new unit is $799.00 and has a bigger screen.

Since I do not have a laptop, I was interested in the programmer with the most features.

Any advice on your end?

Thank you, Mark

I am not sure what you want me to tell you. If you want billet, buy the billet. If you want to save some money, use the cast ones. Carbs been cast for years and shafts and not a problem, these won't be either.

The "NEW" dash is much more user friendly than the older unit.

On a side note..........I feel certain the guy at Jegs is "full of it" on the returns numbers. My bet is people usually get sent the wrong stuff in the first place and then they have to return it.

Most people don't know EFI, so they rely on the "guy" on the phone to tell them what they need. Not sure Jegs or Summit even HAS that guy who really knows this stuff.

Mopar Rich and myself on the board are Holley dealers. I actually work FOR Holley and Rich does this for a living. Get with one of us for what you REALLY need based on what you want to do. Holley now has MAP pricing structure, so any dealer can sell it to you for the same prices as Jegs

That guy at Jegs is FULL OF IT... I have the Holley Dominator
and love it... bolt it on and set the program in your computer
in your case you will have to take the whole computer out to
the shop.. program it and use the computer to monitor it in the
shop... they did forget 1 small plug but when I talked to the
Holley tech he said what I was missing and sent it right out
and I had it fired up on the second day...then let it learn..
its been running great and it does have a ton of power... its
quicker than my carb set up on the revs
EDIT
I bought mine through Monte.. he saved me a pile full
of money just on the hand held read out that I thought
I had to have... he said the lap top is all he uses..
so thats all I use on mine.... and for the price of lap
tops its worth the price to get a lap top... JMO

Thank you Monte and Mike,

The guy at Jegs had me wondering what to do...I made a commitment to buy from Mopar Rich, so that is who I will buy from. I called Jegs because Holley would not return my call for information on the new programmers/displays.

Bad idea calling Jegs for support.

Since I do not have a laptop, I want to make sure that I buy a programmer/display that will do everything. Looks like the new $799.00 unit that Holley just announced.

On throttle bodies, Holley sells a billet Race, billet street?, and two cast units in the 1000cfm 4150 versions, however I read that one of them is 1:1 linkage on the primary to secondary throttle plates. I did not want 1:1, so that is really what I wanted to know.

Thanks guys!

This is my 4500 throttle body..its billet

Hi Mike,

Holley makes one like that in 4150, and one 4150 that is a "race" billet, but the Holley site does not tell you what the differences are.

Is yours 1:1 or progressive?

BR, Mark

I prefer 1:1 even on a street car and here is why..........FIRST, this is not a carb. Progressive linkage on a carb, is usually to keep the car from stumbling when you snap all that air blade open and the carb can't deliver the fuel fast enough. That won't happen with EFI. If I have 4 blades, I want them all working in unison to provide an equal flow of air to the plenum. The rest is just in the tune.

Remember, the throttle body is just strictly an air valve. It does NOTHING else. I want the flow even through it, not half of it, until I decide to stand on it.

Yes it does tell you the difference. The standard throttle body has progressive linkage and the levers for a Ford kickdown and that type stuff. The RACE throttle body flows exactly the same, but has an external linkage that is adjustable for either 1;1 or progressive. These are both cast and is the same throttle body housing and design used in NASCAR.
The billet throttle body is self explanatory....it's Billet.

The billet is of no benefit, unless you just WANT billet. My choice would be the "Race" throttle body, because of the linkage

So who is going to be the first to make a 4500 bolt pattern TBI?

Hopefully nobody. Not sure why anyone would want such a thing.

Several companies, us included make one with a plate under the TB with regular injectors, but can't see the need for true TBI with 4500 size air flow

So a 4150 rated for 1200hp is ok, but us guys that want the same thing without an adapter in a 4500 is not...Logically, your argument makes no sense...I can't understand why you wouldn't.

I'd go with the "race" if it has provisions for progressive or 1:1. Everything Monte said is true about the 1:1, but some engines are hard to drive with 1:1 linkage. The engine's reaction to throttle movement, if tuned well, is instant. The slightest movement of the pedal can give you more than you want, and setting the tps rate of change needs more sensitivity. All can be overcome, but the option is there if you need it.
I fix a lot of driveability issues AFTER tuners get there hands on cars, and progressive linkage always will be easier to drive.
If this is a car that is typically street driven, you would be much happier with this option, whether you use it or not.

Hi Trendz,

The car will have dual quads, so yes, I would want progressive linkage. It is a 604 Hemi that will be street driven, but not a cruiser, only a blast around town with a trip to the track once or twice a year.

The Black 112-602 race has the "Dedicated race only throttle lever" and from the pictures, the throttle lever is much different than the 112-587 universal throttle body, and the latter looks to have more sensor inputs???

I did talk with Holley today (finally called back) and they told me to buy the Holly EFI Digital dash (553-106) that replaces the 5.7" (553-103), but like Monte and Mike said, I will really need a PC laptop for the initial program load.

All this EFI stuff is new to me, so there is quite a learning curve.

BR, Mark

For whats its worth I have the cast EFI throttle body with the progressive linkage I am happy with it. It seemed to be the best value for a throttle body.

Its funny the cost of the holley EFI is what drove me to do a Megasquirt setup in the first place, but the holley throttle body was the best deal out there haha.

To me and most companies I might add, TBI is something for the average guy, who takes the carb off his streeter and wants an easy drop on EFI replacement. Not many fit that bill with a Dominator flange. Most want TBI to LOOK like a carb. Now as I said earlier, we are in development of a billet throttle body with a 4500 flange that will sit on top of a billet plate that holds 8 injectors that will be on an angle and spray down in the plenum. But those are our only plans on anything resembling TBI with a Dominator flange.

As for the 1200hp version of the 4150, I assume you are referring to the Sniper. It already has 8 injectors in that fully contained unit. There is room for no more, nor is there a larger injector that fits within those confines, so the throttle body is supplying all the fuel it can. One for a 4500 would have to be totally redesigned and if it looked the same, it still couldn't support more power because of the injector limits.........so whats the point.

Because you need one and don't want to run an adapter, doesn't make it feasible for us to build it. That would be a low sales product

The 112-587, 112-588 and 112-602 throttle bodies are identical other than linkage. The first two are progressive and have provisions for a Ford kickdown cable or a 700R4 cable. If you don't have these trans, it's a non issue. The 602 or RACE throttle body has the same amount of sensors as the other two and has the external linkage that can be positioned either way. It also only has 2 external vacuum ports, the others have 4, although the bosses are there and you could tap them if needed. So if you don't have a Ford or 700R4 tranny, it makes no sense to NOT get the 112-602 throttle body.

On a personal note, two throttle bodies or not, I would still run them 1:1

When I read that Jeg's comment I was in shock. I have sold and supported many systems over the years, and the Holley products are near the top I have supported, and certainly the easiest to get running. I used to joke that "learning systems" would put me out of the tuning business, but I'm busier now than ever because of all the weird combos people are putting together.

Thank you Monte, Rich, Mike & all,

I now feel a little more educated on this EFI technology!


Best Regards, Mark

Thats true...people like me putting small LSA cams in
EFI engines.. yes it works but it doesnt like it on
the self learn portion... its better now but the overlap
has its problems.... a 105 lsa is a bit much ... its got
so much over lap it has a hard time knowing if it should
add fuel or take it out.... yes I am learning I can pull
fuel out at idle to cover for it... but that will change
in a couple of weeks when I change cams