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Looking for powertrain change feedback...
#1986931
01/09/16 03:29 PM
01/09/16 03:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
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My 1980 Dodge Diplomat coupe (3600 lbs street weight) ran a best of 13.13@102mph. The drivetrain combo is: 360 motor, home ported cast iron heads, 2.02/1.60, hydraulic cam, Hughes Engines HE3844AL (238/244 @ 0.050", .536/.540 lift, 108 LSA), 9.8:1 static CR, 165 psi cranking, Holley Strip Dominator intake, Carter TQ carb, 4K stall - 9.5" Dynamic converter, 727 auto, 3.91 SG rear end. I then switched to a Perfomer RPM intake, which I think would dip the car into the high 12's (street butt-meter said it felt much stronger at the bottom-mid-range) but I never got a chance to run it though.
Over the past couple of years I picked up all the parts (short of pistons) I need to build a stroker motor (408"). I was going to hold-off on doing this until I was ready with my W2 heads (long valve econo versions), but that is still some time off.
So over the winter (yeah, no garage work causes idle mind to think "BIG" ideas...lol) I figured I might give the stroker build a go but based on my existing OEM iron heads (same heads I'm currently running in my combo).
The heads flow:
LIFT I E
0.100 67 57
0.150 99 79
0.200 130 104
0.250 162 125
0.300 189 140
0.350 215 152
0.400 235 160
0.450 253 167
0.500 262 172
0.550 261 175
0.600 248 177
I also have a Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam available, which I'd like to try having never ran a roller before. It is very close to my current Hughes HE3844AL grind, just a wider LSA.
The roller cam specs (custom grind CRS 13084B/3039B HR 112+4) are: 0.548/0.545 lift, 240/248 dur@0.050", 290/300 advertised dur, with 112 LSA ground 4 deg advanced.
Evan though the LSA change from 108 to 112 implies I will have a more broad torque curve with less peak I am thinking the extra inches of the stroker will make up for the less peak, and since this is really a street car I am fine with more usable power up to the 6K range.
So I'm looking for the forum wisdom regarding the impact of the two below combinations in comparison to what is my current setup:
COMBIANTION #1
==============
Keep everything the same (heads, cam, drivetrain), but go to stroker build and bump the CR to 10.5 static.
COMBIANTION #2
==============
Keep everything the same (heads and drivetrain), but go to stroker build with roller cam and bump CR to 10.5 static.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1986951
01/09/16 04:03 PM
01/09/16 04:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
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All the SB drag race motors I've work on like close LSA (104 to 106 depending on which grinds, installed at 101 to 103 on the intake lobes  ), not wider  Especailly with stock type heads  If and when you decide to put the W2 heads on the motor then think about the roller cam  I probally wouldn't use it then, I would try to sell it and buy another better grind with more lift, duration and closer LSA
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 01/09/16 04:04 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1986957
01/09/16 04:13 PM
01/09/16 04:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 251
Saskatchewan (SK)
79410aspenrt
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 251
Saskatchewan (SK)
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have you tried a holley carb? i had a 800 edelbrock on my 360 years ago. it ran 14.7. i had a old 750 holley sitting on the shelf and decided to try it. wow was i shocked after i seen my time slip, 14.3!! no other changes other then the carb. if i would have done some tuning, 13's would have been a possibility.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987047
01/09/16 07:02 PM
01/09/16 07:02 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Roller cam is not really easy to do, unless you already have a factory magnum block setup for a roller....
Me, I miss my '85 5th ave, I would put a late model Hemi in it...And for induction on anything, I would recommend EZ efi from Fast....
Last edited by Dragula; 01/09/16 07:03 PM.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987056
01/09/16 07:14 PM
01/09/16 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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If you put in a stroker kit your gonna have to get the air/fuel in in the same time frame but more of it.. without changing to better flowing heads you need either more lift or more time(duration) to do the job or it will run out of steam well before it does now 
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987065
01/09/16 07:20 PM
01/09/16 07:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
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Heads are the weak link - keep the 108 LSA.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987146
01/09/16 09:18 PM
01/09/16 09:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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My 1980 Dodge Diplomat coupe (3600 lbs street weight) ran a best of 13.13@102mph. The drivetrain combo is: 360 motor, home ported cast iron heads, 2.02/1.60, hydraulic cam, Hughes Engines HE3844AL (238/244 @ 0.050", .536/.540 lift, 108 LSA), 9.8:1 static CR, 165 psi cranking, Holley Strip Dominator intake, Carter TQ carb, 4K stall - 9.5" Dynamic converter, 727 auto, 3.91 SG rear end. I then switched to a Perfomer RPM intake, which I think would dip the car into the high 12's (street butt-meter said it felt much stronger at the bottom-mid-range) but I never got a chance to run it though.
Over the past couple of years I picked up all the parts (short of pistons) I need to build a stroker motor (408"). I was going to hold-off on doing this until I was ready with my W2 heads (long valve econo versions), but that is still some time off.
So over the winter (yeah, no garage work causes idle mind to think "BIG" ideas...lol) I figured I might give the stroker build a go but based on my existing OEM iron heads (same heads I'm currently running in my combo).
The heads flow:
LIFT I E
0.100 67 57
0.150 99 79
0.200 130 104
0.250 162 125
0.300 189 140
0.350 215 152
0.400 235 160
0.450 253 167
0.500 262 172
0.550 261 175
0.600 248 177
I also have a Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam available, which I'd like to try having never ran a roller before. It is very close to my current Hughes HE3844AL grind, just a wider LSA.
The roller cam specs (custom grind CRS 13084B/3039B HR 112+4) are: 0.548/0.545 lift, 240/248 dur@0.050", 290/300 advertised dur, with 112 LSA ground 4 deg advanced.
Evan though the LSA change from 108 to 112 implies I will have a more broad torque curve with less peak I am thinking the extra inches of the stroker will make up for the less peak, and since this is really a street car I am fine with more usable power up to the 6K range.
So I'm looking for the forum wisdom regarding the impact of the two below combinations in comparison to what is my current setup:
COMBIANTION #1
==============
Keep everything the same (heads, cam, drivetrain), but go to stroker build and bump the CR to 10.5 static.
COMBIANTION #2
==============
Keep everything the same (heads and drivetrain), but go to stroker build with roller cam and bump CR to 10.5 static.
Ran a similar combo as yours ( 408 stroker ) with a Huges HEH4650. Easy mid 2's . you should be able to eek a little more out of those heads ( assume they are 915 castings or equal ) with a little more massaging and raise / temper that big nose dive a .600 lift.
Fastest 300
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987312
01/10/16 01:45 AM
01/10/16 01:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Guys!
Thanks for the great feedback.
OK, so I'm a little surprised I suppose that these heads, while not exactly showing record shattering flow numbers - although still OK I think, are deemed to be the weak link here.
Again, I have no experience building strokers, but the feedback begs the question: are the extra 50cu.in. so much more displacement that these heads will hold back the performance, especially in light of both cams being rather tame on the "racing cam scale"...I mean, they are what I would consider to be on the bleeding edge of streetable (given my comfort level)...so anything beyond the mid-240s would be too much in my opinion for a true street ride. In this case I consider the car to be 95% street, great track numbers are awesome, but I like a crisp throttle response even better.
Let me ask the next question in my mind, as some of you I think are suggesting this already: do you recommend that I NOT pursue the stroker build option given that I would be keeping most of the combo as-is?
I thought the extra bottom end torque of the stroker would help move a heavy car like my coupe better, while the move to the roller grind would allow it to still breathe well at the mid-high RPM range. I already have the roller lifters, so this is literally toss-it-in-and-run type of a switch. The cam was actually an off-the-shelf purchase that was custom ground and returned...not ran though...got it for a great price of $150, which I thought made it a reasonable price for a roller "experiment". At most I would potentially have to order a set of custom pushrods.
Since I want to go to the W2 setup next year I thought I'd do the short-block over this winter...sort of split the budget in half, and carry on with the parts I have in the meantime. With the W2 build I would definitely be looking at the correct hydraulic roller cam though.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987356
01/10/16 02:53 AM
01/10/16 02:53 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Strokers are great for moving heavy cars, yes. A stroker with very limited heads literally runs out of steam very early....Almost like you let off the gas pedal at 5000rpm...Long before you would shift it...
I will recommend somthing only a few on here have done, and that is a 318/390 stroker with some ported 340/360 heads....Dollar for dollar, that would a very economical way to go. Not sure where it will fall for hp, but parts are very available..
Last edited by Dragula; 01/10/16 03:03 AM.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987377
01/10/16 03:23 AM
01/10/16 03:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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You can build it like your planning, hyd roller with your heads.. its just gonna run out of steam fairly quick.. but it will have a ton of torque.. you heads peak at .500 lift but hold till .550.. you could use a cam at about .600 lift.. the flow on them isnt that much but it'll work till you get your W-2s and have them ported.. then you'll need another cam to match the heads.. I did something similar to what you plan on.. I had to wait for 1 W-2 head to show up.. so I ported a 340 set of heads that matched up to my W-2 tunnel ram and moved the bolt holes in the T/R to bolt on... it had a TON of torque but ran out of revs at about 5000...I tried it at the track.. that didnt work out well... unless it would have been a 1/8 mile
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987452
01/10/16 11:58 AM
01/10/16 11:58 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 251
Saskatchewan (SK)
79410aspenrt
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 251
Saskatchewan (SK)
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my first stroker I had was 410''. I had 9.1 comp, hughes stage 3 cnc eddie heads, hughes solid flat tappet 626 lift with 1.6 rocker, stage 2 ported super victor intake. it ran 12.0's with 3.55 gears at 3800 lbs.
more compression and 4.30 gears, 11.50's
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987475
01/10/16 12:45 PM
01/10/16 12:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Don't get all caught up on the mismatch thing. For a 99% streeter, "there aint no replacement for displacement"! Going with a stroker kit ( regardless of what cam / heads you use ) will easily put you in the mid 12's if you are running low 13's now. If you go with a cast kit you aren't going to want to wind it much past 6 / 6500 K anyway. You don't need a set of heads that flow 300 cfm ( or any other exotic shat )to do that. A hydraulic flat tappet, a static C.R. around 10:1 with decent quench, a good dual plain and 800 cfm will make you a happy low 12 / hi 11 second street driver. Did this with my 79 300 ( big heavy car )a while back. Car ran consistent hi 11's with a best of 11.53. Not hard to do - cast stroker kit from Hughes ( drop in ), Larger Hyd flat tappet from Hughes, your heads ( flowed a little better than yours ), manifold / carb as mentioned.
Fastest 300
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1987684
01/10/16 05:01 PM
01/10/16 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,432
Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,432
Michigan
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You consider offloading the W2 stuff? Those heads don't really flow any better than a set of Eddies.
Dad just built a 408 using a roller block that I gave him and a set of Eddie heads. In the spring a 518 and a 9.25" rear with 3.90 gears are going in. From the sounds of it your two cars are kind of going in the same direction. Maybe hold off until spring and check it out? It would be a great excuse to meet up again.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: MarkZ]
#1988896
01/11/16 11:00 PM
01/11/16 11:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Hey Mark! You consider offloading the W2 stuff? Those heads don't really flow any better than a set of Eddies.
Wow...no way man, I find that hard to believe. Keep in mind, I am not talking straight ouf of the box W2 heads, what I would eventually toss on would be ported. Most of the flow numbers I have seen on the W2 shows easy 300 cfm, where as the Eddies show 300 after fairly significant porting. ...Dad just built a 408 using a roller block that I gave him and a set of Eddie heads. In the spring a 518 and a 9.25" rear with 3.90 gears are going in. From the sounds of it your two cars are kind of going in the same direction. Maybe hold off until spring and check it out? It would be a great excuse to meet up again. You know, I'd love to do that. To be honest though not sure that I'll want to wait that long...given how short our seasons are around here, if there is one thing I've learned in the past is that winter is just about the only time I get to really take something apart and hopefully put it all back together in time to enjoy during the summer...LOL...my ride has spent far too much time being "built"...now it's time to actually drive it. Still, I'm all about a meet up...we never did connect for a last chance in the season 1/4 mile track run...I really could have used a comparison between the single plane and my Perfomer RPM intake.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1989409
01/12/16 06:57 PM
01/12/16 06:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
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I think something else is up with your combo...you should be making at least 100 more than that...Your combo looks really good (good head flow, healthy cam, good torque converter, good gears) but something is up. You should be low 12's with what u have now I also thought I should have gone a little faster, but I did that 1/4 mile pass with the Holley Strip Dominator single plane intake, and boy, there was a significant low-mid range power drop-off as compared to the Perfomer RPM piece. So I assumed that maybe this explained why I did not dip into the 12s. Also, keep in mind, this really was my 1st time out...LOL...heck, I even tossed my power steering belt half-way down the track...yeah, I was probably the guy everyone else was annoyed with, grrh! I made several changes to my Carter TQ since then, motor has felt stronger each time. I have also gone back to the Perfomer RPM intake. To be honest if there is something inherently wrong with my combo (bad parts, bad assembly - I built it, etc) I would not know where to begin this investigation. All my checks so far have turned up nothing. AF mixture is good (checked with wide-band meter), cylinder PSI seems OK, I have yet to do a leak-down test though. Spark plugs look clean.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1989672
01/13/16 01:25 AM
01/13/16 01:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Yes, cam was degreed-in. I even spent considerable amount of time worrying about things such as rocker arm to valve tip alignment (both side-to-side as well as the sweep pattern).
Well, my plan originally was to re-test the optimized AS-IS combination. Also had the switch to 1.6 ratio rocker arm lined up in hopes of testing the impact this would have, but again, ran out of time.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1990144
01/13/16 08:28 PM
01/13/16 08:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,760
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Nah, no other carbs to try...I'm a die-hard Carter TQ fan, but in this case I'd bite the bullet and give it a whirl with something else I suppose.
I'm running a 9800 series TQ with the electric choke, I've played around with jets/meetering rods to dial-in the AFR, so I think I'm doing OK on the carb side of it...provided of course that the TQ is delivering all that the engine needs. I am running the smaller primary throttle carb though.
Ignition is MP chrome box, fast advance curve on the distributor, 21 initial, 38 total mechanical, Accel Yellow coil.
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1990402
01/14/16 02:31 AM
01/14/16 02:31 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
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Which Mopar Chrome box are you using? The early race chrome box with the blue heat sink or the later chrome one sold over the counter from any Mopar car dealership?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: Diplomat360]
#1990557
01/14/16 12:33 PM
01/14/16 12:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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ET and speed from your OP aren't that far off ( that Wallace calculator is - happy ) from what you have. What are your 60 ft times? 38* total might be a little aggressive for your set up. Might try 35 - 36 total. Nothing wrong with the TQ. Plenty of carb ( even the small block version, which you are using ) if it is set up correctly. Are you running through the full exhaust, or open headers? High 12's, 103 - 4 would be the max you could expect with your present set up tweeked as best you could IMO. Then again, you have aerodynamics working for you  .
Fastest 300
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Re: Looking for powertrain change feedback...
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1990965
01/14/16 10:57 PM
01/14/16 10:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Happy as in it predicts a higher mph than it should for a given HP or more HP for a given MPH? When I used it ( no matter how I inputted the info ) it always made my actual #'s ( ET & MPH )look bad. MPH was always higher than I would/could run. I have a Moroso power speed calculator that is a little happy also.
Fastest 300
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