Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: dodger1]
#196443
01/17/09 08:36 PM
01/17/09 08:36 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423
Kalispell Mt.
|
Heads are basically the same except valve size and that can be changed. The 360 is cheaper to buy and has more cubic inches unless you are strokeing it. Equally built the 360 will make more TQ and dare I say... HP If you are building an A-Body from about 68-71 the 340 tends to add value to a car more so than a 340 because the 340 was the factory performance engine in those cars.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: HotRodDave]
#196444
01/17/09 09:05 PM
01/17/09 09:05 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
Quote:
Heads are basically the same except valve size and that can be changed.
The 360 is cheaper to buy and has more cubic inches unless you are strokeing it. Equally built the 360 will make more TQ and dare I say... HP
If you are building an A-Body from about 68-71 the 340 tends to add value to a car more so than a 340 because the 340 was the factory performance engine in those cars.
Not nessessarly true. 360 's share the head castings with the 340 The 915 heads used in on the 360's in 71 for the most part had 1.88 valves where the 340 in 71 had 2.02 valve heads. 72 up the 1.88 valve heads were prevalent for both and used the same castings. For the most part the valve size is not a major factor until you start running the high RPM range, and the larger 2.02 can can in fact take away low end torque. The 1.88 head will work as well up to about 6000.
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: MoparforLife]
#196445
01/17/09 09:25 PM
01/17/09 09:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826 las vegas
70AARcuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
|
budget wise the 360 is going to be cheaper since there are more pistons available at lower prices...
with everything being equal..the 360 will win...
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: 5spdcuda]
#196449
01/18/09 03:12 AM
01/18/09 03:12 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,445 N.Wilkesboro,NC
DusterKrazy
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,445
N.Wilkesboro,NC
|
Quote:
Generally when you have several engines of the same basic design the smallest will make the most power per cube given equal levels of preparation. While this can be an important factor in class racing, when it comes to the street or brackets size matters and big is good. The 360 has several advantages over the 340. 1st. 20 more cubes. 2nd. The bigger mains which are often criticized provide more crank pin overlap which helps even more when using a stroker. IMO most of these engines will never turn enough rpm for the increased bearing speed to become a factor. 3rd. Since all the LA engines share the same deck height and rod length the 360 has a lighter piston than the 340 which is probably at least as important to revabilty as the 340s shorter stroke. 4th. A 4.030 bore size [ a common 360 overbore ] is probably one of the cheapest and commonest ring sizes available. Lastly, cost and availability is much better with the 360. 340s are great for image and restoration, 360s are for making cheap power.
I like the 340's as good as anyone. A 360 is much easier to find and cheaper to obtain. You will come out ahead because of the 20 extra cubes. If you have a 340 Id sell it and get probably two 360's out of the deal. They can make crazy horsepower and torque for reasonable money. save the 340's for the resto crowds. As far as small blocks go, the 340 is a legend but I'll take power anyday
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#196450
01/18/09 02:32 PM
01/18/09 02:32 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,788
Holland MI Ottawa
|
340s produced for 6 years (only 4 years with the 10 to 1 comp) 360s made form 71 to 2000-2001? 360 prices better due to obvious volume.
Keep old mopars alive.
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: MoparforLife]
#196453
01/18/09 03:45 PM
01/18/09 03:45 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
|
Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
|
I'd build a 360 ANY day over a 340. There is nothing magical about a 340...there never has been
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: HotRodDave]
#196455
01/18/09 04:57 PM
01/18/09 04:57 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
|
Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
|
What I mean is, taking into account the 340s bore and stroke, there is nothing magical that will give you more horsepower...just because "its a 340". I know for a couple of years, it was in fact the biggest small block Ma had to offer. But there has been bigger and badder since then.
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: Kindafast]
#196459
01/18/09 06:30 PM
01/18/09 06:30 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423
Kalispell Mt.
|
I had one and have known of several others that ran them up to 7000 with no problems. If you are still woried about it buy a steel crank for it, plenty are available for them aftermarket. If you are building a stroker than there is no differance in cost.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: HotRodDave]
#196460
01/18/09 06:35 PM
01/18/09 06:35 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,927 Seaford, Va
Kindafast
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,927
Seaford, Va
|
I agree there are a lot of a/m parts now for the 360. Back when I was a lot younger #1 no steel cranks were made #2 if they were I could not afford them. Im talking stock from the factory engines. 340 was a stronger higher reving engine.
6.50 @105.26
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: Kindafast]
#196461
01/18/09 06:45 PM
01/18/09 06:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
No Forged 360 crank - Big deal - Mopars are not noted for crankshaft breakage. Forged or cast. The 360 is not a high RPM oriented engine like a 340. They make it at a lower RPM. Like I said if the 360 would have been made during the non emision ere it would have been 'the small block'. The 340 would not hold a candle to it.
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: Kindafast]
#196462
01/18/09 06:50 PM
01/18/09 06:50 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423
Kalispell Mt.
|
Back in the day those heavy 340 pistons were stressing those steel cranks something fierce. 360 pistons were a lot lighter and easier on cranks. Because of the higher cubes the 360 did not have to rev as high to make the same power, also easier on cranks.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: MoparforLife]
#196464
01/18/09 07:08 PM
01/18/09 07:08 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,927 Seaford, Va
Kindafast
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,927
Seaford, Va
|
Ok I see Im beating a dead horse here. One last question if a 360 engine setup is so much better that a 340, why are all the race blocks based on the 340 instead of the 360? Making that limited power improvement at low end will get far overshadowed by the ability of the 340 to continue to make power up to 8000 rpm. I did not want to start a heated discussion nor will I continue being a part of it. These are just my opinions .
6.50 @105.26
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: dodger1]
#196465
01/18/09 07:28 PM
01/18/09 07:28 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 892 USA
krw71ragtop
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 892
USA
|
Quote:
Im wondering if a 340 would be a better choice to build a moderate hp engine, I have seen 340s for five hundred with heads 360 are cheaper but will I need to buy better heads anyway and really not save any money. thanks for your advice
I just got my 340 (416) fired up last summer. Now planning on doing a 360 (408). Ive done research on both stroker kits and from what I see there is not a big difference in price. Mancini has several different kits for the 360 but its only $60 cheaper than the 340 kit. I looked in the Hot Deals section here and looks like Hughes Engines has a stroker sale going on. Not sure what the price difference is between the 340 and 360 kit. My point is you are not going to save thousands of dollars by building a 360. You can buy a 340 block for $350 here on Moparts. If you can get a 360 for $50 you have saved $300 plus the $60 you saved on the stroker kit from Mancini for a grand total of #360. The rest of the parts for the build will cost the same for both motors. I'll take a 340 any day over a 360. To me its like comparing a 426 to a 440. The 426 is Legendary! Either way cost will be close to the same and you will not feel the horse power difference in the seat of your pants between the 2 builds. And if anybody wants to prove me wrong on the cost difference show me your proof. I have cash for that 408 kit.
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: HotRodDave]
#196466
01/18/09 08:09 PM
01/18/09 08:09 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
Quote:
Back in the day those heavy 340 pistons were stressing those steel cranks something fierce. 360 pistons were a lot lighter and easier on cranks. Because of the higher cubes the 360 did not have to rev as high to make the same power, also easier on cranks.
The above is basiacally a myth -- in 72 the 340 started using cast shafts and still had no problems.
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: MoparforLife]
#196467
01/18/09 08:28 PM
01/18/09 08:28 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423
Kalispell Mt.
|
In 72 they also ran lighter pistons and lower compression more restrictive exhausts and not many people leaned real hard on those cranks except a few super stock guys who would push there luck real hard to gain the smallest amount of ET. Fact is a hevier piston is harder on a crank and rods than a lighter piston, any one who argues that is or or mabey
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: MoparforLife]
#196469
01/19/09 07:51 AM
01/19/09 07:51 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
|
Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
|
Just for kicks since I already had the Performance Trends Engine Analyzer 3.2b software with 1995 Magnum 360V8 factory specs, I changed the short block to 3.31 stroke and 4.17 bore to simulate a 340 style short block, but with the same displacement. (I realize 360 blocks can't be overbored that large) Torque went up 6 ft-lbs at 3200 rpm and WOT Horsepower went 5 hp at 4000 rpm with the shorter stroke and larger bore. Willem Weertman's write up of the creation of the 360 in his book: http://www.amazon.com/Chrysler-Engines-1...5606&sr=1-1seems to indicate it was all about low cost, and he seemed almost apologetic about the external balancing. I have wondered why 3.88 inches was chosen as the stroke of the V10. Weertman writes that this stroke length was ordered by Bob Lutz simply to bring the displacement to an even 8 liters. The story in the book about how the first v10 was built by a specialty shop by brazing on 2 more cylinders to a 360 v8 was interesting.
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: Kindafast]
#196470
01/19/09 10:10 AM
01/19/09 10:10 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
Ok I see Im beating a dead horse here. One last question if a 360 engine setup is so much better that a 340, why are all the race blocks based on the 340 instead of the 360? Making that limited power improvement at low end will get far overshadowed by the ability of the 340 to continue to make power up to 8000 rpm. I did not want to start a heated discussion nor will I continue being a part of it. These are just my opinions .
a 340 & 360 are essentially identical block wise except for main bearing journal diameter...the smaller main bearing will be less parasitic friction.....but you could get the R3's in both 340 and 360 main size.
the biggest reason a stock 360 won't rev like a stock high comp 340 is the stock cam build a 340 and 360 equally--same cam, similar reciprocating weight in the rod/piston combo, compression, heads, intake, carb, etc, a 360 will about 5-8% more torque over a 340 (due to increased displacement) at a very slightly lower RPM, and it will make more HP if the combo wasn't maxed out on the 340. and the 360 will rev just as quick as the 340.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: 360view]
#196471
01/19/09 10:16 AM
01/19/09 10:16 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
Just for kicks since I already had the Performance Trends Engine Analyzer 3.2b software with 1995 Magnum 360V8 factory specs, I changed the short block to 3.31 stroke and 4.17 bore to simulate a 340 style short block, but with the same displacement. (I realize 360 blocks can't be overbored that large)
Torque went up 6 ft-lbs at 3200 rpm and WOT Horsepower went 5 hp at 4000 rpm with the shorter stroke and larger bore.
Willem Weertman's write up of the creation of the 360 in his book:
http://www.amazon.com/Chrysler-Engines-1...5606&sr=1-1
seems to indicate it was all about low cost, and he seemed almost apologetic about the external balancing.
I have wondered why 3.88 inches was chosen as the stroke of the V10. Weertman writes that this stroke length was ordered by Bob Lutz simply to bring the displacement to an even 8 liters.
The story in the book about how the first v10 was built by a specialty shop by brazing on 2 more cylinders to a 360 v8 was interesting.
I've seen an article a few years ago which was a comparison of 2 LS1 motors in the 400 inch range, IIRC. one was based off a corvette 5.7 with a stroker crank and essentially stock bore, the other based of the 5.7 with a stock stroke and wet sleeves to do an all bore big inch motor. they were built with identical heads, cam, induction, etc. like your engine simulator results, HP and torque were virtually identical, with negligible differences (within 1-2% of each other, just like your computer simulation).
if I had to swagger the slightly higher numbers were probably due to the simulator accounting for valve shrouding.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: patrick]
#196472
01/19/09 10:19 AM
01/19/09 10:19 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
Quote:
Ok I see Im beating a dead horse here. One last question if a 360 engine setup is so much better that a 340, why are all the race blocks based on the 340 instead of the 360? Making that limited power improvement at low end will get far overshadowed by the ability of the 340 to continue to make power up to 8000 rpm. I did not want to start a heated discussion nor will I continue being a part of it. These are just my opinions .
a 340 & 360 are essentially identical block wise except for main bearing journal diameter...the smaller main bearing will be less parasitic friction.....but you could get the R3's in both 340 and 360 main size.
the biggest reason a stock 360 won't rev like a stock high comp 340 is the stock cam build a 340 and 360 equally--same cam, similar reciprocating weight in the rod/piston combo, compression, heads, intake, carb, etc, a 360 will about 5-8% more torque over a 340 (due to increased displacement) at a very slightly lower RPM, and it will make more HP if the combo wasn't maxed out on the 340. and the 360 will rev just as quick as the 340.
realistically if building a stroker, the cost difference is negligible, the 360 cranks are slightly cheaper, pistons nearly identical cost, and rings for a 4.03 bore are cheaper, especially when you start getting into the thinner ring packs.....
now if you plan on running a hydraulic roller cam, a 360 can be significantly cheaper if you start with an '89-up block, as you can use OEM lifters which are about $120/set, vs. the retrofit lifters that run in the $450-550 range.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: patrick]
#196473
01/19/09 04:22 PM
01/19/09 04:22 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,423
Kalispell Mt.
|
Patrick the 4bbl 360s had the same cam as the high comp 340 but no high compression and lousy exhaust flow and leaner carb settings for emmisions.
The closest you can find them in stock form for comparison is a bone stock 73 340 in an A-body with low comp lousy exhaust emmisions calibration and compare it to a 74 360 in an A-body. The 74 360 will woop the 73 340 every way imaginable.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: MoparforLife]
#196474
01/19/09 04:55 PM
01/19/09 04:55 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,044 minnesota
president61
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,044
minnesota
|
Quote:
No Forged 360 crank - Big deal - Mopars are not noted for crankshaft breakage. Forged or cast. The 360 is not a high RPM oriented engine like a 340. They make it at a lower RPM. Like I said if the 360 would have been made during the non emision ere it would have been 'the small block'. The 340 would not hold a candle to it.
EXACTLY! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NON PERFORMANCE 340 SO THEY WERE ALWAYS CONSIDERED BETTER THAN THE 360. UNTIL RECENTLY 360S WERE CONSIDERED JUNK BECAUSE FOR THE MOST PART THEY WERE PUT IN FULL SIZE CHRYSLERS WITH PATHETIC COMP RATIOS AND FIBER TIMING CHAINS. I'D BUILD THE 360 WITHOUT HESITATION
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: IronWolf]
#196479
01/19/09 05:49 PM
01/19/09 05:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,359 Buzzard County, FL
IronWolf
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,359
Buzzard County, FL
|
A better idea is to tell the people at the "Jiffy Mart" that you are running a 340 ? How in the heck could they dispute this ? Instant respect (ooh,forged crank, "high compression") !!
Do they imagine the lightweight Dusters/Demons of yore ? I think so ! Because the smallblock cudas/challengers were no world beaters (DAMHIK).
Nevermind the importance of body-weight to HP ratio, drag coefficents, center-of-gravity, parasitic mechanical drag, etc, etc) Nah, it's the legend, and I cannot figure whence the legend came. When, where ?
On the street perhaps ? I have heard rumors of 340 Dusters/Demons waxing Roadrunners/Superbees. Dunno.
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: dodger1]
#196480
01/19/09 05:53 PM
01/19/09 05:53 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826 las vegas
70AARcuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
|
if we get back to the orginal question about which is better TODAY....
then we throw out all the BS about which one had higher compression...lousey intake carb and exhaust..cause i doubt that he would be using stock intake and exhaust...and the compression is limited on both engines cause of lousey gas..
So ToDAY with cheaper and lighter pistons available, cheaper rings, and with the same intake/cams for both...
the 360 wins...
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: IronWolf]
#196481
01/19/09 06:06 PM
01/19/09 06:06 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,482 Lake Orion, MI
goldduster318
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,482
Lake Orion, MI
|
The 360, especially in magnum form, ROCKS! Those MP 300hp 360 crates were nothing more than pickup truck engines with an LA timing cover, car oil pan, dual plane, and conventional ignition. Even had 9:1 compression and an under 0.400" lift cam. 300+hp and 375 lb-ft...that's a little bit better than real world numbers on a stock 340. Real world, 360's are a lot cheaper, especially since you can still find good bottom ends.
'70 Duster 470hp 340/T56 Magnum/8 3/4 3.23 Sure-Grip
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#196482
01/19/09 06:49 PM
01/19/09 06:49 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 607 NY
old340dog
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 607
NY
|
I've got to rebuild my 340 this winter.It has a auto 727. I have considered a 360 instead. Either way it will not be a stock rebuild. Will have some extras. If I decided to swap the 340 out for the 360. What do I have to change? Are the oil pans the same? someone told me I'd have to change the flexplate also. What years are best to look for. And out of what Mopar
old340dog
|
|
|
Re: 340 verses 360
[Re: old340dog]
#196483
01/19/09 07:30 PM
01/19/09 07:30 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826 las vegas
70AARcuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
|
oil pan is different in the rear main area...or there is a spacer available so you can use the 340 pan...
you will need a flexplate and damper for a 360.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
|
|
|
|
|