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Most stable valve train???
#1935502
10/20/15 11:32 AM
10/20/15 11:32 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
65 Hemi
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
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What is the most stable springs, shims/spacers or collars on valve train for a 426 style hemi??? I looked on Stage V website at some pictures and the show collars. What's your thoughts on advantages and disadvantages? This is for a 582" all aluminum Hemi .650 lift, 280 duration, 80% track- 20% street.
Doug
MOPAR or NO CAR!!!
1965 Dodge Coronet soon a 6.1 Hemi with a Magnson blower 810 hp on pump gas
1964 Dodge Polara 582" Indy alum Block 426-1RA heads,
1933 Plymouth PE all Steel, LT1 4L60E
1959 Plymouth Savoy 33,000 mile survivor
Old cars are never done. They are ongoing projects!
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935539
10/20/15 01:02 PM
10/20/15 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,822
Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,822
Stuttgart, Arkansas
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At that lift the stock configuration stuff is good enough. Stage V rockers are the prettiest and I use Keith Black stands, shafts, plugs and springs.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: rickseeman]
#1935563
10/20/15 01:33 PM
10/20/15 01:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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At that lift the stock configuration stuff is good enough. Stage V rockers are the prettiest and I use Keith Black stands, shafts, plugs and springs.  I have the KB stands and shafts, but I'm using the DLI roller rockers which aren't made anymore. I have the stock spring and shim setup, although most say the collars are better. My roller cam is only .672"/.651" lift though...no problems at all after nearly 10 years.
CHIP
'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
'70 'cuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75....................FOR SALE
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
'17 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935572
10/20/15 01:56 PM
10/20/15 01:56 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
65 Hemi
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
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Thanks for the input. My concern is I bought this motor from a guy that bought it from an estate from a old KOS racer. It was built by a well know builder. The motor was over 10 years old but new(never run and never apart) so I took it apart for inspection and one of the Norris rockers roller tip was pushed off the side of the valve on the retainer. It may have been bump over during assembly. I'm sure glad I caught it. I have no problem buying the collars if it is a better route.
Doug
MOPAR or NO CAR!!!
1965 Dodge Coronet soon a 6.1 Hemi with a Magnson blower 810 hp on pump gas
1964 Dodge Polara 582" Indy alum Block 426-1RA heads,
1933 Plymouth PE all Steel, LT1 4L60E
1959 Plymouth Savoy 33,000 mile survivor
Old cars are never done. They are ongoing projects!
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: BradH]
#1935583
10/20/15 02:05 PM
10/20/15 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Holy Mother of God, get rid of those archaic springs!!!  The collar setup may be better, but why change now? I've been running mid 9s at almost 2 tons for 9+ years and just recently dipped into the 8s. I'm not seeing a reason to change anything. The springs obviously do their job on my setup. If there was gonna be a problem, I'm pretty sure I'd have seen it by now.
CHIP
'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
'70 'cuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75....................FOR SALE
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
'17 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935627
10/20/15 03:15 PM
10/20/15 03:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 44,171
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 44,171
Bend,OR USA
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Buy the Stage V collars with the wave springs and set the clearances up to what they recommend. The Hemi motors really need a very good set of pushrods and valve spring to rev and live  If you wanted to race it a lot I would say convert to the Jesel rockers or another brand as good as they are  If street and occasional 7500 RPM blast use the good springs and pushrods with the rockers you've got  
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/20/15 03:16 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1935671
10/20/15 04:30 PM
10/20/15 04:30 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
65 Hemi
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
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Buy the Stage V collars with the wave springs and set the clearances up to what they recommend. The Hemi motors really need a very good set of pushrods and valve spring to rev and live If you wanted to race it a lot I would say convert to the Jesel rockers or another brand as good as they are If street and occasional 7500 RPM blast use the good springs and pushrods with the rockers you've got I thought the Norris Stainless Steel rockers were good. Is that not the case?
Doug
MOPAR or NO CAR!!!
1965 Dodge Coronet soon a 6.1 Hemi with a Magnson blower 810 hp on pump gas
1964 Dodge Polara 582" Indy alum Block 426-1RA heads,
1933 Plymouth PE all Steel, LT1 4L60E
1959 Plymouth Savoy 33,000 mile survivor
Old cars are never done. They are ongoing projects!
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935678
10/20/15 04:40 PM
10/20/15 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,822
Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,822
Stuttgart, Arkansas
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You have Indy heads with cast in stands. Not much there that you can change. You can put collars on if you want. I prefer not to.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935686
10/20/15 04:59 PM
10/20/15 04:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Norris rockers are better than stock, but that's about it.
CHIP
'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
'70 'cuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75....................FOR SALE
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
'17 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#1935726
10/20/15 06:10 PM
10/20/15 06:10 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
65 Hemi
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
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Norris rockers are better than stock, but that's about it. Ok, I will keep an eye on them and may switch them out after I get the car running. I just knew Bob Mazzolini use to push them 15 to 20 years ago.
Doug
MOPAR or NO CAR!!!
1965 Dodge Coronet soon a 6.1 Hemi with a Magnson blower 810 hp on pump gas
1964 Dodge Polara 582" Indy alum Block 426-1RA heads,
1933 Plymouth PE all Steel, LT1 4L60E
1959 Plymouth Savoy 33,000 mile survivor
Old cars are never done. They are ongoing projects!
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935744
10/20/15 06:31 PM
10/20/15 06:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,225
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,225
New York
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I see weight reduction has high priority with Norris?
An FEA analysis of those rockers would give me a coronary!
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935757
10/20/15 06:57 PM
10/20/15 06:57 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
65 Hemi
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 984
San Diego CA
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Man! I love the look of Stage V. I would want clear valve covers...
Doug
MOPAR or NO CAR!!!
1965 Dodge Coronet soon a 6.1 Hemi with a Magnson blower 810 hp on pump gas
1964 Dodge Polara 582" Indy alum Block 426-1RA heads,
1933 Plymouth PE all Steel, LT1 4L60E
1959 Plymouth Savoy 33,000 mile survivor
Old cars are never done. They are ongoing projects!
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1935801
10/20/15 08:16 PM
10/20/15 08:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,503
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Master of nothing...
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Master of nothing...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,503
Benton, IL.
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What is a good source for the wave washers? Mine already has collars and I would prefer to add those style washers.
Master, again and still
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#1937262
10/23/15 12:29 PM
10/23/15 12:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Holy Mother of God, get rid of those archaic springs!!! The collar setup may be better, but why change now? It's just me... I can't stand half-a$$ed, budget-driven, band-aid engineering. Using a cheesy spring to try and keep a loaded rocker arm in position vs. a stable method that maintains the correct location on the shaft just strikes me as 1950s OEM technology. Carry on...
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1937266
10/23/15 12:39 PM
10/23/15 12:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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It obviously works fine. Even in some pretty extreme situations...such as mine for the past 10 years. If mine hasn't experienced any issues w/ that setup yet, then I'm sure not going to change now.
CHIP
'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
'70 'cuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75....................FOR SALE
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
'17 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: BradH]
#1937268
10/23/15 12:42 PM
10/23/15 12:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,345
NE Ohio
DoubleD
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,345
NE Ohio
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I guess you have not seen any of Allen Johnsons top fuel set-ups then - he must be a budget racer - just because it appears to be an old design does not mean its antiquated in function.
Last edited by DoubleD; 10/23/15 12:42 PM.
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: DoubleD]
#1937273
10/23/15 12:51 PM
10/23/15 12:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,639
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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I guess you have not seen any of Allen Johnsons top fuel set-ups then - he must be a budget racer - just because it appears to be an old design does not mean its antiquated in function. They still use springs. http://www.alanjohnsonperformance.com/rocker-assembly/item/76-top-fuel-426-hemi-rockers-parts
CHIP
'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
'70 'cuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75....................FOR SALE
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
'17 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: DoubleD]
#1937276
10/23/15 12:59 PM
10/23/15 12:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I guess you have not seen any of Allen Johnsons top fuel set-ups then - he must be a budget racer - just because it appears to be an old design does not mean its antiquated in function. I believe you're referring to Alan Johnson, the TF guy, not Allen Johnson, the Pro Stock guy. And all I know is if it's important to keep the rocker stable horizontally on the shaft (not sliding sideways over the valve tip as the loads change), a collar or a solid spacer has got to be far more effective than a spring, which cam compress ('cuz that's what springs do, right?) and let the rocker move around. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but I don't own a Hemi, either.
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1937371
10/23/15 03:32 PM
10/23/15 03:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,225
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,225
New York
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The spring install relies on knowledge of which way the rocker will thrust when loaded - that should be against a hardened and parallel surface, like the shoulder of a stand. I wonder if anyone has tried a radial bearing ("lazy susan") here as thrust control?
The spring goes on the other side of the rocker.
If you assemble it correctly, the rocker's lateral position never moves.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: 65 Hemi]
#1937377
10/23/15 03:39 PM
10/23/15 03:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,225
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,225
New York
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Really curious: all that shiny stuff, color anodizing, Grade 99 hardware, million lb. tensile strength valve cover screws...
and yet, with the exception of Barton, every Gen-2 rocker assembly I've seen has no provision for adjusting the geo of intake and exhaust rockers separately - their shafts are on the same stand. Shim/shorten one, shim/shorten both.
What are people with Stage V, yatta, yatta doing when shimming the stand to correct the intake rockers throws the exhaust geo out the window?
Anticipated response:
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.
.
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"...what?"
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: polyspheric]
#1937389
10/23/15 04:08 PM
10/23/15 04:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I wonder if anyone has tried a radial bearing ("lazy susan") here as thrust control? IIRC, Barton's custom T&D setup for the SS/AH Gen II Hemis uses bearings on the thrust side (possibly both sides). As far as the spring deal... if the load imparted on the rocker by the pushrod is always AWAY from the spring side, then I understand why it shouldn't make a difference. I'm not familiar w/ those engines' rocker & pushrod geometry and where it does / doesn't matter. 
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: polyspheric]
#1937458
10/23/15 06:36 PM
10/23/15 06:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,128
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,128
Rogue River, OR
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Really curious: all that shiny stuff, color anodizing, Grade 99 hardware, million lb. tensile strength valve cover screws...
and yet, with the exception of Barton, every Gen-2 rocker assembly I've seen has no provision for adjusting the geo of intake and exhaust rockers separately - their shafts are on the same stand. Shim/shorten one, shim/shorten both.
What are people with Stage V, yatta, yatta doing when shimming the stand to correct the intake rockers throws the exhaust geo out the window?
Anticipated response:
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.
.
.
"...what?" In short, you are asking why nobody makes a paired rocker shaft setup for the Gen II HEMI engines? Am I interpreting this correctly? It can be hard to see through the woods around here lol.
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Re: Most stable valve train???
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1937469
10/23/15 06:56 PM
10/23/15 06:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 44,171
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 44,171
Bend,OR USA
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Barton, Jesel and Brad Anderson make paired and individual single sahft rocker systems for the Gen 11 426 race Hemiroid motors The B.A. parts, individual stainless steel rockers, fit there heads only, I think  They sure are nice and they will exceed 11,000 RPM safely repeatably 
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/23/15 06:59 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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