Hope someone here can give me some good advice.My problem is this:
Several of the 822-16 Comp Cams hydraulic lifters installed in a 440 engine with a 0.525 lift camshaft and double valve springs are very noisy and loose pressure even by hand rotating the engine.
After few turns there is a lot of free play just with a light pressing on rocker arms. The lifters under the pressure of opened valves are almost collapsing overnight.
All this takes to startup with terrible noise ( like a poor diesel Fiat) and I the noise doesn’t disappear until engine very warm, oil pressure is around 80PS with Valvoline 20W 50 VR1 oil.
Thank you in advance
Roberto

20w50 oil is real thick when cold, add in lifters bleeding down and it doesn't surprise me that it takes a while for the noise to go away.

What oil filter are you running? It is a known issue with certain filters that have bad anti-drainback valves for this very issue to occur.

I would do an oil change to a lighter weight oil, 10w30 VR1 would be fine, and a good filter, Wix 51515 is my preferred choice.

Being in Italy though, I do not know what your choices are.

sounds like you may have some of the old Stanadyne tappets. how old is the cam and lifters?

Did you pump the lifters up before install? I know Comp says not to...

They all say not to, for good reason.

What reason is that?

Because it's not needed, it's a good way to bend a pushrod when torquing rockers down, especially in a net lash setup such as the stock rocker setup in most of our cars.

A simple prefill PREOILING before initial fire up is more than adequate to fill the lifters without any issues.

What is a simple prefill?

Preoil the engine where you pull the distributor, put a length of 5/16" hex stock down to the oil pump and turn it CCW for a big block, or CW for a smallblock.

^^ that^^. takes care of the lifters & fills each particular one to the cup height it is at in the firing order & preoils the rest of the eng & you want minimal turning with a new cam breakin. get the dampener slit at TDC #6 compression & preoil then hand turn crank 3/4 turn back CCW & preoil the other bank & cut a strip of paper 17.082" for a ruler (BB). For a SB get it to 90 deg BTDC #1 compression & preoil & alot of of SB's have partial slits at 90 deg or if not then cut a strip of paper 5.694" then continue on around to 20 deg ATDC #6 compression & use the timing tab as a ruler to go from 15 to 20 deg & preoil the other bank. On the lifters, check preload and do Hughes' lifter body clearance check, the "thunk" test

Gotcha, I don't think Comp says anything about that in the instructions though.

That's normal engine building procedures, not necessarily cam swap procedures. If I am just swapping a cam in an already running and broke in engine I don't preoil it at all. I just fire it up.

I see now the comments, thank you. actually i did the break-in of the cam ( XE275XL Comp Cam) as instuctions ( of course I primered with electric drill before 1st startup) and yes it took a little while for the engine to get quite maybe even because of thick 20W-50 oil. The problem was starting the engine the day after, I got a diesel sound again because of 2-3 lifters totally bleeded . Then all this week I've been experienced the same problem and not with the same lifter position, I've been checking and trying more or minus preload until the decision ( a bad one) to install a new set of the same high energy CC lifters (named 822-16). I dont know why but this set of lifters behaved far worse. The noise was louder infact several were almost collapsed or with a big free play under the pressure of a finger.
I wonder if double valve springs ( 924-16 Comp Cams) are the problem or the high lift cam or geometry of valvetrain ( I have pushrod a bit shorter than they should be in order to get a centered line on valve stem)
Sorry I this post is long and boring, problem is where I live, nobody is a specialist ofthese engines and parts eat a lot of time-money.. Thanks anyway

Sorry but just a simple question to whom have far more experience of me:
after engine running, hydraulic lifter are pumped up in the position they are supposed to stay, and this is clear I guess. My question , is it normal under hand rotating of crankshaft that they are bleeding down, even if double or triple valve spring are installed? I've ever thought hydraulic lifters when pumped are like solid ones. Maybe I was wrong..?

Exactly, most people aren't going to do that for a cam swap. A buddy of mine swapped cams, followed comp instructions, and had noisy lifters. We told him to take them out and soak them in oil. He bought another set, followed their instructions, and again had noisy/bleeding down lifters. He took them back out and soaked them and presto no more noise.

OP those 924 valve springs are only about as stiff as most performance singles, and actually weaker than Comp's own 911 single spring (more goofyness from Comp cams). I would advise you to do the same as my buddy, remove the lifters and soak them in oil. You want to make sure that they go back on the same lobes though.

Also, when you install new lifters, you should follow normal new cam break in procedure.

Back to prefilling, again, not recommended for any reason.

To the OP, what brand oil filter are your running?

Well the comp cams method didn't work for the OP twice now, so maybe he wants to try something new (that people have done since the invention of the hydraulic lifter). For what its worth I've never heard of someone bending a pushrod because their lifters were pumped up. Just offering another opinion for the OP.

I have the same problem with the same cam and lifters in a 440
everything you said is happening to me exactly
I am going to put the pro magnums, in

the lifters are JUNK had 2 sets and the same issue go with solid lifters and never look back

hi Roberto, I am going to ask a QUESTION, What is the history on the motor, specifically who installed the camshaft and lifters, and WHEN ?
I have had a few experiences where REPUTABLE builders installed/ substituted Cheap lifters to save a few bucks on the "build" We have had ZERO issues with comp cams lifters PERIOD!! So, a bit of history may help identify the root cause.

Now you can no longer claim that. I will tell you it's happened to me. A filled hydraulic lifter is not easily compressible, you have to let it bleed down as you tight down on it. You reef down too quick on the rocker and the lifter will not bleed down fast enough and you will bend the pushrod, BTDT, and it'll pop out on you when you are leaving the doctor's office with a sick kick and zero oil pressure because the lifter is now setting in the valley and all the oil is dumping back into the crankcase. That is why Comp tells you not to do that. But hey, what does Comp's experience and engineering mean against an opinion anyway.

Comp's engineering and experience has gotten him through 2 sets of lifters with the same problem. Comp sucks. Like I said people have been pumping up their hydro lifters forever.

I understand what you're saying, and I understand why that could happen in theory. But he wants to fix his noisy lifters, and you are the only person I've ever heard of this happening to, I would guess because a retainer bolt nearest to the pushrod that bent was driven in too far before the others were driven in, side loading the pushrod and causing it to flex, and this was the real cause of the issue. Maybe, maybe not, but with the lifter pumped up to the max really all that should happen is the valve will open as the rocker shaft is tightened down. What you're saying could happen any time a rocker shaft assembly is installed/reinstalled, or even with the lifters not pumped up. You know whats harder to compress than a pumped up lifter? One that the cup is bottomed out in (or a solid lifter). Although the extra clearance of not being pumped up might help.

IMO the only thing a set of freshly pumped up lifters would do is screw with cam timing until they bleed down. I would think that is the reason Comp says not to pump them up, in case you get a valve trying to hang open on initial start up until the lifter bleeds down. I agree that priming the oiling system should also fix the issue, but hydraulic systems with air in them can be difficult to bleed. I'm done debating it and the OP can do as he wishes with the information provided.

OP let us know how it turns out.

thanks for advice but honestly I lost trust in these lifters, I'm not sure they can hold pressure anyway.
About Valve spring I regret I followed the recommended components for cam HE275Xl, I had the single 911 and took out to install the double 924 with the extra job of machining heads guide bosses etc etc..

I also would like to go pro magnums, I have nothing against Comp's and I'd buy again from them. the only problem is the ocean between when it's time to buy parts.

the history of this motor is a long history and I really don't want to bother with too much telling. Important to say that I'm not addressing responsability to any builder , since I have performed myself all the works on this engine, and of course I have maximun respect of Comp's as they sell thousands of parts and I assume they know their job very well.
All I can say is that before istalling the HE275XL with spring 924, I had another Comp's cam of thump series (the 279) with valve spring 911 and I didnt experienced any problem with lifters bleeding.
Honestly I wanted a bit more power so I decided for the cam swap , since I had the 275XL unopened package at home from many years.
Now I'm taking some days to read and try to figure out what to do, thanks for help

the 924 springs are not a heavy spring. they are just a little more high lift friendly.

With that bit of information I would suggest contacting comp cams and see what they say. based on the information I would say you may have gotten a bad set of lifters.

When you shut the engine off, oil pressure goes away and the lifters bleed back down. That part is normal. Hand rotating the crankshaft is not fast enough to build enough oil pressure to pump the lifters back up. Once you start the engine, lifters should be fully pumped back up in a few seconds. When the engine is shut off, hydraulic lifters do not stay pump up like solid ones.

To my understanding some of the higher performance lifters are made with a little more internal clearance to prevent lifter pump up as RPM goes up. Cheaper ones do seem to run a lot quieter for me. Also a lot of people complain about the XEHL cams making noise. Probably be worth changing oil weight before panicking.

Yes, that's correct, what I see not-normal is that lifters bleed down so much with engine off, and the engine would start very noisy and would not be silent until very warm. It's true the oil 20W-50 is thick but I 've always used this gradation since ,before on a 383 and then with 440 without hearing any valvetrain ticking even after months of parking.

I dont want to insist on this thread too much, I received a lot of hints and I appreciate it, really.

So the decision I'm going to take is to order a new set of lifters of higher quality or let's say more engineered for hi lift cams.

From Summit catalog online I'd buy a set among these ones:

COMP Cams Pro Magnum Hydraulic Lifters 867-16 $97.97
Crower Camsaver Hydraulic Lifters 66031X3-16- $109.97
Crane Anti-Pump Up Hydraulic Lifters 99278-16-$101.60

I know there are other engine parts involved in this issue so i do not pretend that anyone without seeing the motor can give the right solution but..thank you in advance for any advise about which set would be more desiderable in theory for a cam XE275HL with 924-16 valve springs.

Try a lighter oil first. That is a simple test which doesn't cost much money. Put a 5W-30 in there and see if the lifters pump up quicker on cold start.

If your spring rate is the same and you have more lift now than the valves that stop fully open will have more pressure bleeding it down than the old cam.

Hi everybody,
after a month this topic is still the main problem for this 440 motor.
During this time I performed new tests,I tried old stock valvetrain with no results.Than I put back adjustable with more and less preload,nothing. Than I put lighter engine oil ( 10W-40) but the problem is still the same:
Only on passenger side, lifter / lifters under valve opened BLEED OFF overnight and take 3-5 minutes to pump up until the lash is gone and ticking go away.

yesterday I was in bad moon and took apart the heads because the very different valve spring installed height between cylinders make me nervous, moreover I want to check more measurements and even each cc combustion chamber because I'm sure I have something wrong on heads.

Thank you for support

Might be as mentioned that the new set of lifters (would only take one or two bad ones to make a racket) are bad. If your preload is good and your psi is good and your oil weight is good, not much left. I did have noisy ones on a later /6 with hyd lifters. it would come and go (mostly at idle) but usually when started & I just lived with it. EDIT & when it would come and go randomly the psi was OK. If I ran into that I'd take apart each lifter/clean/reassemble the pieces (same innards in same body & as you know same lifter back in same hole) & if that did not do it then I'd spring for a nother set & do the cam breakin procedure

yes .. for the 2nd time I'll have again this set carefully cleaned and reassembled to be sure they go inside the holes better than new out box.
Anyway tomorrow I'll take heads to machine shop to see what we can do to get the installed spring height as close as possible to 1.900 recomm value.
actually these vintage DC stage IV heads, ported and cut more time in their life have some valves quite recessed expecially intake ( dont know why) and even worse the stems were cutted to balance .. ( these jobs belong to the past of this car) so will update how it ends more ahead. thanks

After plus one year trying to fix a multitude of problems in my free time on weekends, yesterday afternoon for the first time I felt like to quit and sell the car. Before that, I’m asking again to someone for help, in no way I will take the car again to any mechanic in my town or in the whole Italy too!


the UNSOLVED problem is actually the sound of ticking on valve train,expecially when engine hot. If I pull the valve cover I see some free play pressing on rockers , like some lifters are spongy.
I tried also magnum –race lifters but these were a nightmare with the recommended almost zero preload .. I tried to increase preload to standard lifter but nothing solved ..
Oil pressure is ok , first I put Valvoline 20W50 and some lifters needed a lot of time to fill with engine cold ..so I put the Royal Purple 5W30, maybe too thin , but they pump suddenly after started engine. I wonder what is killing the ability of hydraulic lifters to do their work of maintaining zero lash in this engine.

I also tried to pull out all lifters , disassemble and clean them like were my teeth, but the problem when engine gets hot is always the same.

Really Thank you in advance.
Roberto

someone may have restricted the oil flow to the lifters, pull the front lifters out on pass side & get a oil pump priming tool & spin the oil pump, you will be able to see if you have good oil flow to the lifters.

Aftermarket adjustable rockers? Got the preload set right?
Pushrod length good?

Actually the oil flow has not changed before and after camshaft swap, the engine block has not touched, I think lifters galleries get enough oil. thanks

Take them out and clean them

Yes aftermarket adjustable rollers I believe there are streetmaster stuff, now I try to attach a photo. Preload procedures made and ade again with all care, before with half turn after zero lash, then almost one turn complete. Pushrod is a challenge to get exactly the roller in the center of valve stem .

I could do it again, but I have already did this procedure and honestly haven't solved anything. The engine was clean and 2nd change of new oil, so I dont think the lifters collected much dirt inside..

Take the valve covers off before you put the car away for the day. The next day start it up and see if your getting oil to the rockers when the engine is cold. If yes, on both banks.. oiling should be good.

Maybe have to replace the noisy lifters.

Yes sure, if only I knew which lifters to buy to solve the problem, I would place the order IMMEDIATELY.

Probably not much help but I would look for some old NOS Mopar or old stock TRW or Crower lifters from way back instead of dealing with some of this crap that is currently made. Maybe check ebay. I have a set waiting for me when I do my cam swap. A few years ago I ordered a MP cam and the lifters were chipped along the edges on the bottom of the lifters. I sent it back.
Luckily so far I never had a issue with bad lifters. Honestly it sounds like you just got hold of some crap lifters if the oiling is good to the rockers. How do the ticking/tapping lifters feel in the bores (tight or loose?)Was it tapping before the cam change?

Infact I've had the same result with two sets of lifters 822-16 of Comp Cam and a nightmare experience with the pro-magnum 867-16 still Comp cam. I'm not saying this Company sells bad products, maybe my problem here is not poor lifters at all. Before cam change I did not have issues with clattering , the previous cam had lift under .500" and I had the stock not-adjustable stamped rockers. All lifters fall in their bores very easily with just the friction of oil viscosity.

You could just pump them up...

rocker arms after shut off the engine

Hylift Johnson lifters #B-2011 www.toplineauto.com

After some tests performed during the weekend and after reading many posts and aticles, I have come to a conclusion that the ugly noise of clicking under the valve covers is caused mainly from the extreme energy Comp Cam XE275HL. I cannot even imagine that I got 2 bad NEW sets of 822-16 lifters (matching with the cam) . The valvetrain overall geometry maybe be not perfect because the mark of roller on the valve stem tip is not so narrow but it’s on the middle anyway, and I don’t think this takes to a such ticking sound. The noise is terrible as the engine starts cold , after some seconds get better and that it needs some minute to get the usual sound of sewing machine, I’d say a pretty vintage sewing machine. I know the magnum pushrod with aluminum extruded roller rocker arms work against because of their weight, but again this cannot hurt so much at idle-low revving.
Since doing all tests engine running without valve covers I lost about 2 kg of oil over then ground ( …) so I decided to change the 10W30 with a Valvoline racing 20W50, the thicker oil seems to stand better with engine hot, oil pressure at idling is around 30-35 psi ( just a bit under middle on dash gauge)
To be honest the car seems to move quite fast, I feel quite a power under the hood, but I’m not comfortable to press the right foot, I’m scared something bad can happen to this engine now, and the conclusion is that the experience with this cam is over. I wonder if driving the car for some while could help in some way to lower the valvetrain noise , if someone can tell me an opinion it’ll be very appreciated.
It’s last chance , after that I must find the spirit to take apart again half engine to swap the camshaft.
Thanks anyway for time to read.

you might take off a valve cover & idling, press straight down on each rocker arm (lifter end) with a wooden hammer handle & see if any of em get quiet(er). those are the bad ones (might just be one or two)

RapidRobert


Yes I tried several times to do this test. engine idling, under my pressure of the wooden handle on rocker (lifter end) all lifters behaved the same, none of them became silent. Instead the noise increased, due to the fact that each lifter under pressure slowly bleeds down the oil that has inside..and yes the oil pressure at the gauge was ok !

You're sure when on the base circle you have at least .020" preload?

Roberto, I can only imagine your frustration level with this problem. One thing I noticed you mentioned that these are stage IV heads that have had a lot of work done to them over the years. Have you checked to see if one head is milled more than the other? Hence the possible need for different length pushrods. I had a set of heads years ago I put on a motor and was chasing my tail on things only to realize one had been shaved about .030. I run solid cams but I could see if one of your heads was shaved this is maybe whats causing you the grief with your hydraulic cam???

RapidRobert,
yes sure, I tried with different preloads..half turn, 3/4 and 1 full turn of adjusting screw.
actually I havent observed any gain with increasing preload. Thank you

Ski 61701

I must say these stage IV are everything but perfect. During the years they have been milled , massaged, machined, and the tip of valve stems actually are not lined because of recessed valves after grinding...this is the reason of adjustable rockers. Before putting this (damn) high energy highlift cam I had the original ( worn) stamped rockers and I had no issues about valvetrain noise, nevertheless the preload on most of hydraulic lifters excedeed the standard value and it was very dangerous with engine revving because of possible hug between valve and piston with lifter pumping-up... sorry I read your reply so late.

The misalignment of the valve tip is because whomever did the valve job didn't take care in making sure they were close in height to each other.

I haven't read the entire thread but if you have lifters bleeding down it's more than likely due to the tolerances inside the lifters allowing it to happen. You have have an adjustable valve train why not put in a solid cam and be done with it ??

I have another question , what valve covers are on the engine and have you looked to make sure the adjusters are not hitting the underside ?

One thing I have read on these pages , and experienced personally is that Comp hyd. cams can be a little noisy because of the fast ramps , you may be chasing a problem that is not a problem ?

I read where you say you could push down on some of the lifters and they seemed spongy ? That is the tolerance inside the lifters allowing the oil out , nothing is going to change that.

What exactly are you expecting for noise level ?? Roller lifters on fast ramps will have the sewing machine sound ???

Can you post a video of the sound ?

My .02....

The reason you can't seem to fix the problem is.... There is no problem.

The Comp xe/HL cams are pretty noisy. You'll never get it to run quiet like an old school hyd cam.

If you want something noticeably quieter, try a Summit 6401 cam and lifter kit with the lifters preloaded about .050".

John

although you haven't read all the thread you focused my problem so good! First of all about my stock valve covers, I removed internal baffles to avoid the rockers hitting the steel. Of couse the noise is the same with or without them installed. Too much tolerance inside the lifters ..this is wahy I put 20W50 and actually I noticed oil thicker helps a bit. About noise what makes me scary to test the car is that ticking level is not as uniform as a kinda sewing machine..I heard some (maybe 2 or 3) tickings are louder and I guess those valves loose some degrees in opening-closing too. Anyway I will try to record the sound and to post a short video here, thank you for now.

Switching to a thicker oil to TRY to mask the noise is not doing anything for you, if this is a fairly new engine I'd get away from that thick oil, it's not needed.

Listen to fast68plymouth, you don't have a problem.

The last 383 I did for a friend with a custom Comp I got from fast68plymouth was a little noisy, the person I did it for complained about it a little and I told him the only way to fix it was to swap in a stock replacement type cam. I was actually going to use that Summit 6401 cam Dwayne is suggesting, I have used it before in a 383 with a 4 speed and 3.23 gears and it was ok for what it was.

My experience with the xe hyd cams in bb mopars, especially with aftermarket rockers is, they are noisier than many solid lifter grinds, and the noise definitely isn't as uniform.
The sound is not particularly confidence inspiring, but that's how they are.
Just run it and live with the noise, or change to a quieter lobe design if you can't get past the noise.

Btw, the upper rpm limit of those lobes with std lifters and the springs you have is somewhere around 5500rpm. It might go a little higher, but if you feel it stop pulling, it started getting unhappy a few hundred rpm lower than where you felt it flatten out.
If you run it higher than that, don't be surprised if you start having issues.

As a side note....... In most cases the noise isn't usually coming from the lifters themselves.
I think if you go to the Rhodes lifters website and look through their info, they have a good description of where the noise comes from when the lifters are are in a somewhat collapsed state.

Dwayne
had I bougth at first a 6401 cam kit for sure now I'd have many hundreds of Euros in my wallet, this is not the main thing but it does have a sense for me nowdays..but before to get the xe275HL out the car I want to try some more test on road.. this saturday I had about half an hour ride on street and the noise sounded a little more uniform, noticeable but not loud. It was very hot here (38C°)and the good news engine doesn't get hot and oil pressure remained good, this was good news. Instead I was everything but impressed from the power these kind of cams are supposed to deliver..before this I tried a thumper cam ( 279th7 - int.lift 0.486 ehx lift 0.473 - duration 227-241 advertsed 279-296 - certerline 102 -lobe separation 107 ) that was lazier at low mid revvings but well alive around 4000. Honestly I cannot say more at the moment, I experienced quite a bog with secondary opening ( EDL Thunder 800AVS) evn with electric pump feeding the carb, so I need to do more test... At the moment thank you so much!

Have you adjusted the air door ? The carb will require some tuning .

You are not any more likely to bend a pushrod when installing the rockers on an engine with pumped up hydraulic lifters than you are installing them on an engine with a mechanical cam/lifters. If you bend a pushrod installing rocker arms - hyd or solid cam/lifters - YOU WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION.

Roberto, I'm not really suggesting you "should" change to the Summit cam, I'm just saying it will be quieter.
The XE/HL cams make good power up to the limiting rpm of the lifters(usually around 5500rpm).
If you're happy with the performance, then you'll just have to get used to the noise.

Like my buddy who was putting pushrods in a 06 Malibu.. me: "you making sure you're putting the longer pushrods on the intake?: Buddy: "yup". Me after he started the engine: "dumbass".

So your buddy already knew the exhausts were the longer rods then right?

What I say.. intake? Who's the dumbass now. LOL.

I set the air door adjusting the screw as suggested as default setting, I must test again to see if I set it too weak or too hard to open...also I have a bad smell of unburned fuel at idling..I'm not a pro , not a mechanic, so I need time to understand what the best combination of rod -spring jet etc....

Dwayne, my plan is (during the weekend) to try to get rid of the bog with carb tuning and try to see the 5000 rpm on the dash tachometer. Only after this test I'll take the decision if putting the word END to this damn cam or not. All is about the feeling of power, just the feeling ( no clocked times) , if the power is not much more than the Thumper cam , for sure I decide for the latter , it was very quite good high revv and impressive idling sound too. Will update soon

just to let you know i replaced my lifters with a set of pro magnums set them at 1/4 turn after zero cold with aluminum heads and all is good real good

You need to tune the carb, it is not the right setup for your particular engine, or really any engine for that matter, out of the box.

If you have a bog when on the secondaries opening then the spring is probably adjusted too tight.

The engine is not going to run well to you get that carb setup properly, along with your ignition timing .

John, my experience with carbs that have spring loaded air doors is, if it bogs, the spring is probably set too loose.

All that should happen if the door spring is set too tight is you wouldn't get the door all the way open at max rpm.

Yes .. from I felt driving the car the bog is caused from starving fuel, so I guess my air doors open too early allowing a too much air mass, just my feeling-

You know more than I ever will when it comes to tuning the Carters , or any carb in general, so I'm making a mental note of that ...

Thanks.