A few weeks ago I got the 440 running again in my Charger. I am putting off having a motor built for a few more years so I figured Id try to get away with a refresh of my motor. The motor was running well when parked 15 years ago. The cylinders looked ok so I just honed them with a flex ball and put new rings and bearings. The pistons had a few scratches in them but the machine shop who loosened them up on the rods thought they were ok. I had a few pistons that felt tight on the rod so I had them clean and re press them.

The car was an automatic before, now a 4 speed, changed the heads to Edelbrock RPM, same intake and carbs and headers.

The rockers are stock stamped steel Mopar, same ones that came out along with the pushrods. I re used the cam and lifters, putting them all in the same spot.

Cam is Mopar 284/484, its running terrible right now, blowing gray smoke, about 8 inches of vacuum, not sure what the power valve is, but it smells very rich. I tried putting about 18 degrees initial timing, but it dieseled after shut off, didn't really drive it around to see if pinging, and with the noise, don't want to rev it up to high. I tried retarding the timing and the noise was still there.

The noise follows the RPMS, almost sounds like an exhaust leak but it isn't. Not sure what I can do w/o taking off the intake.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSS5oCcsRaQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFh6mxFDMrE

Sounds alot like valve train.
Collapsed lifters or way too much pre-load.
Too slow for rotating assembly parts.

Definitely a valvetrain noise. What rockers are on it???

Sounds heavier than valvetrain to me. You say they pressed a couple of pistons off and back on. Did they measure the skirts afterwards? Pressing pistons off can distort the skirts.

"Valve train noises occur at half of crankshaft speed so even if your ear can't tell whether the noise is happening at 700 rpm (raps per minute) or only 350 rpm, your eyes can. Hook the timing light to any one cylinder and watch the flash illuminate the timing mark. Stare at it for a while and see if the flash jives with the knock. If it does, then it is more likely to be rocker arms, pushrods, lifters, camshaft, cam bearings, timing chain and gears. If the noise seems twice as fast it is probably in the crank, mains, rods, rod bearings, wristpins and pistons."

They are the stock stamped rockers, from Year one about 15 years ago. I had Hughes 1.6 roller rockers on there first but I swapped them for the stock ones last week thinking that was my noise.


No, I didn't ask them to measure the skirt prior and after.

Not going to be remedied by fiddling with timing, PVs, etc. Start taking it apart and looking. Pull the valve covers and bar it over. Look for something not right. Pull the plugs, spin it with the starter and listen. Pull the front and check cam timing, fasteners, etc. Been there. Sucks. Just have to start looking. First vid sounds like it has a miss to me along with the noise.

ETA...A mechanic's stethoscope could be very useful. I would limit the run time until I knew what it was.

Sounds like a tooth off on timing... did you degree it

If you think it's a piston noise you can pull one wire at a time when it's running and see if it goes away. that will tell you what cyl. it is coming from.

Are the rocker shaft oiling properly?

sounds like a lifter or something up top. Take a long screw driver and run it down each valve cover to pin point it. (if you don't have an engine stethoscope) FWIW you are not going to get a ton of vacuum w/ that 484 cam. moparpollack brings up a good point, you did install the rocker shafts correctly right? If they are upside down that can cause that sound.

More than likely piston slap and or piston pin seized up. J.Rob

Hmm, i think I have the rockers on correctly, are the tiny holes supposed to be facing down when installed? i beleive they have a 15 degree offset in relation to the holes for the hold down bolts?

I swapped these from my roller 1.6 from Hughes, but I thought I had the small holes facing down on those too?

The holes in the rocker shaft should face the valve springs.

Did you ever run the stock pushrods before with this cam? IMO the stock pushrods are likely too short.

I did run these exact rockers/pushrods before on this motor, same cam, only difference was the heads. I ran stock iron heads previously, now running Edelbrock RPM.

Did you check the lifter preload ?

Was it making the same noise with the rollers ?

It was making a similar noise with the 1.6 roller rockers, but it seems worse with the stock ones in.

I didnt check the preload with the stamped rockers, just torqued the bolts down to spec.

On the roller rockers, I set them initially at 1/2 turn after having what I thought was zero lash, then i adjusted them a 1/4 turn at a time, the noise didnt get better or worse, then I just swapped them out for the stockers. That is as far as I got.

I figured the stock rockers would take the variable of the adjustable roller rockers out.

Maybe the pushrods are touching the heads side loading the rockers

Keep in mind that aluminum heads expand more than iron, if there is little/no preload on the lifters the preload will disappear as the heads expand away from the lifters.

Are the Edlebrock RPMs set up to take the stock length pushrod?

Thanks for all the replies guys, its much appreciated, Ill be tearing into it tomorrow night, ill pull the valvecovers off and will inspect everything closely.

Im reading many different things about the Edelbrock RPM heads in regards to stock rockers and pushrods, I thought they were an exact copy of the physical size of the iron units.


I set the roller rockers when I had the vally pan off and was able to physically see the lifter on the cam, Im thinking of re installing the Hughes Rockers and pushrods and trying to adjust them again but Im thinking it may be difficult not being able to see the cam and lifter?

No it's not that hard though it does make it easier, I have set up a couple of engine that way. The last 2 I did I used adjustable pushrods with stamped steel rockers, so I could set the preload exactly how I wanted it, because not every valve is the exact same height due to casting variation of the heads.

Also note that some .904 lifters are also made to fit AMC applications and those lifters the pushrod seat is .200 taller, meaning you have to run a shorter pushrod. This was also the case on those 2 I did as I used Crower cam savers which are AMC spec. :crazyme:

If you want give me a call and I'll swing by on my way home and give you a hand.

Very interesting on the lifters, these were the same ones I used previously with this cam and the old heads and rockers.


Appreciate the offer John, I may take you up on that, Ill be pulling it apart first and will inspect everything tommorrow night after the kids go to bed, Ill report back what I found, and maybe next week if you wouldnt mind taking a look at it that would be awesome.

sure, let me know.

I pulled the valve covers off, nothing obvious is jumping out at me. The push rods are straight and are not scuffed. I did have the passenger side rocker shaft installed incorrectly. I had the oil holes facing down but not facing the spring. doubt that was the source of my noise though.

I took off the stamped rockers and put the aluminum 1.6 ones back one with the 3/8 push rods. They have the same pre load set as when I removed them as I didn't touch the adjusters. I plan on starting over and adjusting them again, but after I installed it, it felt like some of the rockers were very tight side to side. Should there be some play? I shimmed it to get it as perfect on the valve stem as possible, and may have made them too tight. Could that cause the rockers to be noiser?

I shoot for a minimum of .015 side clearance cold between the rockers That is what both Harland Sharp and T&D call for on ther single shaft rocker kits Let us know what you find please

Have you checked the torque converter bolts?

Hmmm, I know a few are tighter than that, I cant produce any side to side play on a few. Thanks, definitely will be checking that.

its a 4 speed now. Thanks

If you can find an old valve cover, cut the top, bolt it back on and fire it up. This will allow you to do a visual on the valve train without oil flinging all over the place. If nothing is found, swap valve covers and inspect the other side. Make sure there is already some heat in the motor, so that you can maintain a low idle speed.

If you do this you can press on the adjuster end of
the rocker(use gloves) and see if the sound changes..
also... look at the inside of the valve cover.. make
sure the rockers arent hitting the baffles.. this really
amplifies any noise

If it sounds like a diesel (couldn't really tell from your video too much exhaust note), a rattle and clack-ity clack, Id bet it's the bottom end. I noticed the oil pressure was pegged. Did you maybe put the main bearings in upside down? They will run that way for a while, I saw one run that way for about week then it seized a rod. Sounded just like a Diesel. That's my Good luck and hope you find it soon.

That ticking is half engine speed. Rotational noise is a lot faster jmo

I'm with ya But diesels don't tick, they rattle and knock. Going by his description not the vid.....That speed tick from the vid is usually an ex. leak. There is no reason the stock rockers would be causing the issue for a typical freshen up.

Wow, Didn't realize there was a second vid.... that's no exhaust leak...I still think it's bottom end....unless a stuck valve smacking a piston...but not likely. imo.

I made one he can borrow from a valve cover I have with a big dent in it.

Just my 2 cents, if it ain't anything obvious under the valve covers, Piston Slap, or it is one of those wrist Pins they "loosened" up is REALLY loose now.

My friends small block Chevy was making similar noises last week, the rockers were banging against the valve cover, one valve cover actually split open while I was standing there watching it. Hopefully yours is an easy fix like that.

?? sounds like upper valve train to me. This is a solid roller cam and noisy Ross pistons. The quiet down after it warms up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPPjBNwdHfA

Again,thank you all for the replies and suggestions, the engine in that last video sounds a bit similar, but mine doesnt change when the engine warms up.

Im pretty sure the bearings were installed correctly, once the motor warms up, the pressure will stay between 40 and 50 PSI, its pegged when cold.

I need to look at the side to side clearance of the aluminium rockers as I know for a fact I added a few shims this time around to get the roller over the valve stem centered. I know I have a few that feel very tight, I cant even get them to move at all.

John, If you have a cut up cover that you wouldnt mind bringing by, that would be great, let me know if you are around later this week. Thanks again guys!!

Mike

FWIW I was worried when I first fired this thing up. To the point where I was chasing everything. A friend stopped by and said sounds ok to me (has a lot of experience)then another told me his Ross pistons were loud as heck too, and long story short the engine had at least 40 runs on it (driven to and from the track) ran 11.30's shifting at 64-6600 and lots of street blasts when I sold it. Still running hard from what I understand.

It has been a while since I posted on this topic. I have since put about 550 miles on this motor since the refresh and the noise has been and remains there. The engine has great oil pressure, doesn't smoke and was very powerful and responsive so I was very surprised with what I saw when I did some diagnostics this last weekend.

I don't know why I never did this test until now, but regardless I did a compression test on Saturday. Not sure if it was because the engine was cooling off but I got some strange numbers. I did the test with all the plugs out but forgot to open the butterfly on the carb, not sure how much that changes things. On the drivers side bank, the cylinders were all around 155 PSI, however on the passenger side, the numbers were higher, all around 190 PSI except for #8 which was zero!!! All of the other plugs looked good, light cocoa color except for number 8 that was still brand new and shiny.

So for 550 miles I have been running on 7 cylinders, I still cant believe how well it ran like this, but with the 484 cam, I just thought the rough idle was how it was supposed to be.


I am at a loss as to what this could be, seems like it was like this from first fire. Time to pull off a valve cover, do a leak down test after I visually inspect everything. I recall everything looking normal when I last checked it, meaning the pushrods going up and down, etc but who knows for sure.

What is ironic is someone posted back in 2015 that they heard a miss in the one of the videos I posted. Very good, it certainly did have one!

Any update on this?

Not yet, the plan is to tear into it on Tuesday night as I have one of my fellow gear head buddies coming over to give me a hand.

first order of business is to perform a leakdown test then take it from there.

We put air in the cylinder and couldn't hear anything out of the carb or tailpipe, or out of the valve covers.

Used the remote starter and watched the rockers only to see the exhaust rocker move up and down on that cylinder.

Pulled the intake and lifters and one of them was toast. The cam is wasted on that lobe as well.

What is confusing to me is the noise was there from startup but I changed rockers, lifters, pushrods a few times, adjusting the valves so I don't know how I missed that rocker not moving like the others. I re used this cam from prior to the refresh, maybe it had an issue then and slowly was getting worse? This lifter is not a Mopar one that originally came with the cam. I put a set of comp cam lifters thinking that was my noise.

I'm sure the internet will explode when I just do a cam swap without pulling the motor to be hot tanked and rebuilt due to the shavings and metal. I just did the oil pan on this a few months ago and I didn't see anything concerning on the magnet.

I plan on changing the oil after the install then again after break in. I'll check the cam bearings while I have it out.

OK, I guess I'll be first in to say good luck on your cam / lifter swap. The cam bearing would be the last bearing I would look at. If your not going to pull the pan, pull the oil pump , no real cost , just a gasket and you can make that. Pull the pump apart for a inspection. That will tell you what your bearings will look like. Go from there. If it looks like rats have been chewing away at the gears you might want to pull the engine down for a review. I have got away with a cam /lifter change out and at that time I was using a double filter set up . As bad as your lifter looks your filter couldn't have caught all the metal. In the end it's your money , do as you think that is best for your wallet.

I’d cut the filter open for a look inside as well as pulling the pump apart.

Thanks guys. Agree about the filter and pump. I know I have extra gaskets lying around from prior projects.

If I can get 2 more summers out of this motor then I am happy. I am planning to have a motor built for this car in the near future.

When I had my 383 magnum rebuilt for the first time 25 years ago , I reused a Mopar 284/484 cam and lifters that I had installed the year before

Machine shop said cam and lifters looked fine , well
Lasted about a month , same situation as yours

Installed a new Mopar 284/484 cam and lifters , never took anything else apart on that new motor

25 years later , wiped out that same cam and lifters when I tapped a piston with the intake valve on my newly installed Edelbrock Heads

Long story short

432 Stroker now

Machine shop said all my bearings , crankshaft , cylinders looked good for a 25 year old motor

They did the short block , gave me all the old pistons , rods , crankshaft , bearings etc.

I took the oil pump apart this winter (This 25 year old motor had 75 psi hot at cruise and 35 psi at idle)

Inside the Melling HV oil pump it looked like someone took 60 grit sandpaper , a grinder , jack hammer you name it

I have no idea how it still rotated , it was that bad

Like I said , rest of the motor , bearings looked pretty damn decent


Replace the oil pump for piece of mind

I hate and now don't use Mopar brand Hi Po cams
You get what you pay for normally, now that Fiat, new owners, are trying to make more money by raising the prices on those cam and kits if I was you I would look at buying and using a better brand and grind camshaft
Sorry for your part failure

Thanks guys, appreciate your feedback. I do plan on pulling that pump off and will have a look in there.

Now I have to shop for a cam and lifter set. I am looking at the Lunati Voodoo series cams, I just need to give them a call and talk about which one would work best for this engine and car.


Right now, I'm leaning towards the 60303, I just want something like the Mopar 284/484 but with better street manners.

I have built a 340 and a 440 with eldlebrock heads over 10 years ago and both are still running great. I remember reading both heads required adjustable rocker arms.

That is so you can set the correct pre load or valve lash depending on what kind of cam your running.

It is rare that you can just bolt on non adjustable rockers after changing heads and cam and have the proper pre load or lash.

Pre load and lash are two different things too.

If you insist on non adjustable rockers then in most cases you have to have custom push rods which is much tougher to get right than just using adjustable rockers to get your pre load right on each lifter. Custom push rods means there all not going to be the same length.

The pre load on a hydralic cam should be set before you install the intake manifold so you can see what your doing on each lifter.

Good luck. If you wiped a cam lope than you need to take the motor out of the car and all the way apart to clean it out.

I would run something other than the Voodoo line of cams, my

This is why I refuse to build any engines with flat tappet cams. You can do everything right and still end up with a lobe/lifter failure... No thanks....

IMO everything was not done right on this build because the pre load was not set correctly or even checked. That does not make all flat tappet cams bad, IMO.

I dont recall saying that I didnt adjust the preload with my roller rockers or check it at all? It could be something else going on..

It is not like setting valve lash on a hydraulic cam. You set them once and forget about them for ever. The number of turns is different for each valve, they will not be all the same turns. And once set on a hydraulic cam you should not adjust them while the motor is running, sure way to get them wrong.

This is where I read you just bolted them on without checking pre load.

I can be 99% sure the pre load was wrong.

Also I called Edlebrock when installed my heads and was told to use 1.5 rockers. So I sold my 1.6 and got 1.5 rockers. 1.5 ensures push rod clearance and acceptable geometry for novice builders like you and me.

Both my motors have proven durable during 11 years of beating them. My 340 has been beat to heck out at Bonneville all 4 times I have had the car out just messing around. Every drive your car for miles and miles at near wide open throttle. I have and I could not hold it at wide open throttle because it would over rev. I have many hi performance miles on them and the valve pre load is good and I have never adjusted it since I built the motor. I use Crane gold rockers on both motors.

Gotcha. I didnt think you were refering to the stamped steel ones. I figured they were just torque to spec and go. Thanks for the further feedback. Ill do more hoomework before setting them again

When you setup the pre load, I have to see the lifter plunger in the top of the lifter. I make sure it is at the top and take out any play while spinning the push rod. Once I am sure there is no lash and the plunger is still at the top of the lifter against the retaining clip, then I set the pre load. Some rockers have different threads and adjusters so you can't say 1/4 or 1/2 turn is correct across all motors.

I will see how many turns it takes to gently bottom the plunger and then set my pre load accordingly. I like the plunger in the middle to the top 1/3 of the lifter, has always worked me for many hydraulic cam installs. Years ago I installed hi po cams in many local cars for friends and even as side jobs for extra work.

Then I eventually raced a top alcohol dragster where I set the valve lash before every run. I took out the push rods every night to preserve the hi dollar valve springs...hundreds of times.
There's my push rod holder for a brad hemi.

Great info! thank you

Loose converter bolt?

It's a 4 speed.

and the problem has been identified back a page

They are not bad. I personally will not build a engine with a flat tappet cam for someone who is paying me. You can check everything till your purple and still have a lobe/lifter fail. Not worth it... Big block Chrysler engines do not grow on trees like small block Chevys and the aftermarket could care less about Mopar because the dollars are not there. So why on earth would I risk sending metal shavings or worst case, metal chunks throughout a freshly rebuilt stock engine block because a lifter fails or a cam lobe or both
Go roller or continue to play in the sandbox