Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: NTOLERANCE]
#182521
01/03/09 09:01 PM
01/03/09 09:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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Took my Dart out to our weekly cruise night for the first time.
Had a Chevy guy going over some stuff in the engine compartment and making comments,I would like to know everyones take on the comments.
Mustve been Al Gore checking your care out. Funny I thought he drove a Hyundai.
Just remove the rest of the evidence of the charcoal canister and get a EGR block off plate. Then tell the Chevy guy that the car ran worse when you put those parts back on, and you found out it wasnt supposed to have them because its a 1972.
WOW, you mean AL GORE gets through the Moparts filters? Must be the new president....
In before the lock!
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: 70dart360]
#182523
01/03/09 09:03 PM
01/03/09 09:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Others prevent max power from being produced like EGR valves
I call BS on that one, an EGR cools cylinder temp therefore making an engine run more cleaner and more efficient. Producing more power. As far as a charcoal cannister and the smog pump, they pull an engine down. Ditch them if ya can.
EGR cools down the combustion chamber temps, thereby lowering nox output. This has the same effect as lowering the compression ratio, ie cooler combustion chamber temps. Cooler combustion chamber temps = less power/efficiency, plain and simple.
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: 6packattk]
#182526
01/04/09 12:18 AM
01/04/09 12:18 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Depending on your local laws, and in any state that has adopted CA emissions regulations, you'd be in violation of the law.
In an engine replacement, ie 72 225 for a 78 225, the emissions neccesary to be legal depends on either the date of manufacture for the body or the engine, whichever is later. So a 77 225 in a 72 Dart would be required to meet 77 emissions requirements, however, you cannot run a 72 225 in a 77 vehicle, engine has to be at leas teh same year or newer than the body. The ONLY exception is catalytic converters which are solely body dependant, fire hazard in a body not originally designed for it.
If your state doesn't run CA emissions, which is most, you will have to find out what the law states.
As for "emissions exempt" that means you are exempt from testing, only. Federal law, at the minimum, requires you to keep an maintain the stock emissions equipment. I do not, however, know what the feds require when doing an engine replacement, at the minimum I would guess whatever the emissions you original setup had.
As for an engine swap, ie a 440 in place of a 225, then it has to meet the requirements for the year of the body it's being swapped into or the year of the engine, it also has to be a pass car engine, if it's swapped into a pass car, and it has to be an available option in a pass car for that year. So no, 426's in a 73 Newport.
You can swap a 360 in place of a 318 as it's considered a replacement, not a swap. But it still has to meet the year criteria and have the appropriate emissions retained.
As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.
as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#182527
01/04/09 01:20 AM
01/04/09 01:20 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,945 WI
Dcuda69
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,945
WI
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Quote:
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Others prevent max power from being produced like EGR valves
I call BS on that one, an EGR cools cylinder temp therefore making an engine run more cleaner and more efficient. Producing more power. As far as a charcoal cannister and the smog pump, they pull an engine down. Ditch them if ya can.
EGR cools down the combustion chamber temps, thereby lowering nox output. This has the same effect as lowering the compression ratio, ie cooler combustion chamber temps. Cooler combustion chamber temps = less power/efficiency, plain and simple.
Ahh.....EGR does lower comb. temps which do indeed lower NOX emissions. However it also allows one to add more timing before spark knock(ping) occurs,which is a major contributor to Nox emissions! More spark lead more power,better fuel economy!!!Plain and simple!! There is a lot of misconception around EGR systems,I see it on forums all the time.Just like I see about PCV systems!! I'm not saying it is needed,but a properly functioning system will not hurt engine performance! By the way, I'm an ASE certified tech(including L1,advanced drivability)and an Auto Instructor at a tech college.
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: Supercuda]
#182528
01/04/09 02:06 AM
01/04/09 02:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,231 ILLINOIS
volaredon
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,231
ILLINOIS
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Quote:
Depending on your local laws, and in any state that has adopted CA emissions regulations, you'd be in violation of the law.
In an engine replacement, ie 72 225 for a 78 225, the emissions neccesary to be legal depends on either the date of manufacture for the body or the engine, whichever is later. So a 77 225 in a 72 Dart would be required to meet 77 emissions requirements, however, you cannot run a 72 225 in a 77 vehicle, engine has to be at leas teh same year or newer than the body. The ONLY exception is catalytic converters which are solely body dependant, fire hazard in a body not originally designed for it.
If your state doesn't run CA emissions, which is most, you will have to find out what the law states.
As for "emissions exempt" that means you are exempt from testing, only. Federal law, at the minimum, requires you to keep an maintain the stock emissions equipment. I do not, however, know what the feds require when doing an engine replacement, at the minimum I would guess whatever the emissions you original setup had.
As for an engine swap, ie a 440 in place of a 225, then it has to meet the requirements for the year of the body it's being swapped into or the year of the engine, it also has to be a pass car engine, if it's swapped into a pass car, and it has to be an available option in a pass car for that year. So no, 426's in a 73 Newport.
You can swap a 360 in place of a 318 as it's considered a replacement, not a swap. But it still has to meet the year criteria and have the appropriate emissions retained.
As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.
as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.
So then, how do people get away with big block swaps into post-'79 trucks? You can't tell me that nobody in Cali has ever done one of these type swaps! Also, I remember hearing the blather about that engine had to be an option in that body style, that year; though that may be what the rule book says. Another thing; Ever look in an engine catalog (ie; Jasper, etc) they often group several years' of a given engine application; how can the "same year or newer" thing fly, if, for example, they group a 77-79 318 together, your car's a 79 and your reman was an engine originally built in '77? Further; "pass car" block vs "truck" block (depending which you are swapping into) You mean to tell me, that a 318 long block of a given year is really any different for a car, vs a truck of that given year? (OK; maybe the truck has exhaust valve rotators; big deal) but casting number wise, I have a 78 Fury and an 83 D 250; both 318s both have the same casting # on the heads; neither has ever been apart since Mopar built them. Internal parts; the same set of pistons is catalogged to fit more years than would a short/long block, as I described above; how would the SAME piston act any different, in a '78 block than it would in an 89 block? the piston don't car what year block it's in! Yet the catalog shows that range for that application.
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: Supercuda]
#182529
01/04/09 02:42 AM
01/04/09 02:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.
as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.
Show me one 70's mopar that's running SOOOOO much compression that it needs EGR to keep ping under control. You won't find one because by the time EGR came into effect, compression ratios were non-existant anyway.
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Ahh.....EGR does lower comb. temps which do indeed lower NOX emissions. However it also allows one to add more timing before spark knock(ping) occurs,which is a major contributor to Nox emissions! More spark lead more power,better fuel economy!!!Plain and simple!! There is a lot of misconception around EGR systems,I see it on forums all the time.Just like I see about PCV systems!! I'm not saying it is needed,but a properly functioning system will not hurt engine performance! By the way, I'm an ASE certified tech(including L1,advanced drivability)and an Auto Instructor at a tech college.
Why would you bump up ignition timing while running EGR? All that's going to do is bring comb temps back up. EGR brings em down, extra timing brings them back up. Give here, take there, net result is no change. I don't for a second believe that at a given compression ratio that you will see real-world MPG increases by running EGR with extra ignition timing versus just running no EGR and getting a cleaner burn with a little less timing. EGR does not affect full throttle performance because the OEM knew well enough to turn the EGR off once you nailed the throttle.
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: stumpy]
#182530
01/04/09 11:46 AM
01/04/09 11:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,402 State of Corruption
camdog440
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,402
State of Corruption
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Smog stuff goes by body year not engine. If you put an older non smog engine in a later smog car you need to install smog equipment. If you go the other way you can remove the smog stuff.
Not necessarily. I had a '73 Cuda with a '72 340 in it and then moved to Cali. I had to take the car to a referee station to have it smogged the first time. They classified my car as a '72 for smog purposes and then told me to take off my econo 650 Holley... and put on a big 750 Double Pumper . I also had to put all of the factory smog controls back as if it was a '72 model... I put it all back but it wasn't functional thanks to some broken off golf tees in the vacuum lines.
A guy came in to the referee station with a hot rodded Camaro... a car originally from California... he was told to put it ALL back stock. The guy had the look on his face like his dog just died.
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#182532
01/04/09 12:32 PM
01/04/09 12:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,945 WI
Dcuda69
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,945
WI
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Quote:
Quote:
As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.
as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.
Show me one 70's mopar that's running SOOOOO much compression that it needs EGR to keep ping under control. You won't find one because by the time EGR came into effect, compression ratios were non-existant anyway.
Quote:
Ahh.....EGR does lower comb. temps which do indeed lower NOX emissions. However it also allows one to add more timing before spark knock(ping) occurs,which is a major contributor to Nox emissions! More spark lead more power,better fuel economy!!!Plain and simple!! There is a lot of misconception around EGR systems,I see it on forums all the time.Just like I see about PCV systems!! I'm not saying it is needed,but a properly functioning system will not hurt engine performance! By the way, I'm an ASE certified tech(including L1,advanced drivability)and an Auto Instructor at a tech college.
Why would you bump up ignition timing while running EGR? All that's going to do is bring comb temps back up. EGR brings em down, extra timing brings them back up. Give here, take there, net result is no change. I don't for a second believe that at a given compression ratio that you will see real-world MPG increases by running EGR with extra ignition timing versus just running no EGR and getting a cleaner burn with a little less timing. EGR does not affect full throttle performance because the OEM knew well enough to turn the EGR off once you nailed the throttle.
You do understand with early(vac)EGR the reason they were inop at WOT was because of lack of vac. at WOT! You also understand with early timing controls(vac advance) that timing also retards at WOT for the very same reason ,right?
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#182535
01/04/09 12:52 PM
01/04/09 12:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
EGR is only supposed to work at steady cruising speeds. Idle and wide open it doesn't work. So technically you shouldn't 'notice' it. Doesn't hurt anything really...
cept for throttle response to some degree...
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Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#182536
01/04/09 01:07 PM
01/04/09 01:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,945 WI
Dcuda69
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,945
WI
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These EGR posts are great. The answer can be found at any car show, cruise in, or drag strip....after all EVERYBODY runs an EGR system for more performance
I think my engine is getting too much oxygen and fuel mixture in the cylinders...gotta reduce that somehow....
Yep,those are the guys running a stock 70's slant 6!! Goody has it right!!
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