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400 stroker advice-parts source????? #1777019
03/11/15 02:42 PM
03/11/15 02:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,554
DC, MD Suburbs
440PURSUIT Offline OP
pro stock
440PURSUIT  Offline OP
pro stock

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,554
DC, MD Suburbs
Building a motor for the pro tour charger which will have five speed overdrive in a 3800 pound + 69 charger air-conditioning and fuel injected.

For this type car is the 499 with the longer rod preferred over a 511?

Also who would be a premium parts supplier for rotating assembly?

This is a rework of the 383 based motor I initially built. Aluminum Indy – 1's will be employed.

Thanks in advance


1969 Hemi Charger R/T,
1970 Charger 472 Hemi 6 Sp
1969 Charger Pro Tour Project
1971 Barracuda Convert
1970 440 6pack Superbird,
1968 Fury I Police Pursuit 440 Super Commando 2 door sedan (Black/Blue)
1967 Barracuda Convert
1968 Barracuda Coupe
1972 Charger Rallye wanna be RT
1972 Sebring Plus 440-6 Clone
1969 Coronet Pro Street
2009 Challengeer SRT8 stick
1992-1986 Body 2500 4x4 440 stick
1982 Ramcharger 318 Sniper- getting enhanced.
1991.5 W250 Cummins- Big Chief
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777020
03/11/15 03:02 PM
03/11/15 03:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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dogdays Offline
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I have changed my mind about rod length over the past few years. I just looked over the latest Enginemasters engine specs engines with rod ratios from 1.45 to 1.55 generally did the best. That is EXACTLY the opposite of what used to be engine gospel, to use the longest rod you can fit.

Shorter rod engines can use bigger ports because the piston accelerates away from TDC faster. They also build torque earlier.

The disadvantages of rod angle and sidewall loading seem to run secondary to the power advantages. In other words they can be accommodated, or else the problems have been overstated by Nervous Nellies over the years.

When Chevrolet designed the HT383 stroker smallblock, they could have used rods as long as 6" without any problem, even 6.1" rods could have been fit. But they decided on 5.7" rods with their 3.8" stroke. R/S ratio of 1.5 exactly.

The 4" stroke Mopar smallblock is usuallybuilt with 6.123" rods, that gives a R/S of 1.531. Yet they run good and as many of them as have been built there has been no talk of abnormal piston wear.

A 6.535" rod on a 4.25" stroke gives a rod ratio that is 1.538, virtually the same as a 4" stroke LA.

Your plan of overdrive will gel nicely with the shorter R/S ratio of the 511.

R.

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: dogdays] #1777021
03/11/15 03:15 PM
03/11/15 03:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,554
DC, MD Suburbs
440PURSUIT Offline OP
pro stock
440PURSUIT  Offline OP
pro stock

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,554
DC, MD Suburbs
Good info!

Premium parts or kit availability that I should look at???
Manley, K-1, Callies?

Kit suppliers via Moparts vendors?


1969 Hemi Charger R/T,
1970 Charger 472 Hemi 6 Sp
1969 Charger Pro Tour Project
1971 Barracuda Convert
1970 440 6pack Superbird,
1968 Fury I Police Pursuit 440 Super Commando 2 door sedan (Black/Blue)
1967 Barracuda Convert
1968 Barracuda Coupe
1972 Charger Rallye wanna be RT
1972 Sebring Plus 440-6 Clone
1969 Coronet Pro Street
2009 Challengeer SRT8 stick
1992-1986 Body 2500 4x4 440 stick
1982 Ramcharger 318 Sniper- getting enhanced.
1991.5 W250 Cummins- Big Chief
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777022
03/11/15 03:17 PM
03/11/15 03:17 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 81
cleveland ohio
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MartyQ Offline
member
MartyQ  Offline
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M

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 81
cleveland ohio
http://www.compu-flow.com/ Give Nick a call - great guy - he will set you straight

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: dogdays] #1777023
03/11/15 03:18 PM
03/11/15 03:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
68KillerBee Offline
master
68KillerBee  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
I got my kit from muscle motors. They also have motors built that they sell. I've heard mixed opinions on them, so I'm hoping for the best...

I was told the first one I got them needed to go .040 over, so that's what I got the kit for. Well they (my machine shop) got my kit, did machine work, and then found cracks in the valley pan area. Gave them another my dad had in the shed and it was no good either, ugh. Just found another one today to give them.

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777024
03/11/15 03:42 PM
03/11/15 03:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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dogdays Offline
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I'd start with 440Source although others will chime in with their favorite purveyors of Chinese cranks and rods.

It's important to know that many of the raw forgings come from the same place, but the machining and final marketing are different. So there's not a world of difference between any of the rods or cranks. They all need to be checked before assembly. Board members have their favorite brands. That may be because they had luck with a particular brand or possibly because they know the company or owner.

Here's an example: For a couple of years K1 rods were favorite with many members. Then Molnar left and started his own company. Suddenly, K1 fell off the edge of the table and now Molnar was the favorite. Never mind that the rods and/or cranks look almost exactly the same. There don't appear to have been any changes in the machining process at K1 to warrant their falling into disfavor..

Another example is Ohio Crank. In the beginning they supposedly said their cranks were forged in the US. However, markings on later cranks clearly show them to be sourced out of China. There are factories over there that produce engine parts for nearly any engine on the face of the earth. You can buy raw or semi-finished or finished forgings or castings from them in bulk.
I used to see 6" rod blank forgings selling on ebay for something like $16.00 each, maybe even lower than that.

Price is important, but I'd advise to give some sellers a call and see if you can work with them. If something goes wrong it's nice to be on good terms with whoever should be making it right.

Here are some in the lower priced tier: 440Source, Molnar, K1, Eagle, Scat, Ohio Crank. I've probably neglected others

Up from them I'd put Callies and Crower, also Manley and Oliver rods, but you'll pay nearly twice as much. Most of this group's wares are made in the USA. They may have started an imported lower-cost line to stay competitive.

Then there are guys who deal mostly with professional racing, like Carrillo.

How much do you want to spend?

R.

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777025
03/11/15 03:58 PM
03/11/15 03:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
I would be very carful on the amount of power you try to make with a 383 block, they have the thin main webs just like all the 440 blocks have I would look around for a 400 block and build that after having it sonic tested My first 400 stroker motor, 4.375x4.250 stroke, made 612 HP and 644 Ft lbs of torque with a set of big valve ported 906 heads and a six pak with a solid roller camshaft I used a 6.800 long rod with a set Ross custom pistons with a 22cc dish in them to make 9.25 to 1 compression ratio and a Ohio Crankshaft company 4.25 crank, I later replace that crank with a 4.300 stroke crank to move the piston to TDC and to increase the compression ratio to 10.3 to 1 after swapping a set of CNC ported Eddy RPM on that motor.For your deal I would use the longer stroke and the longest rod in it that I could make fit easily The manual trans will allow you a little more selection on road RPM so the bottom end torque(low RPM)of the longer stroke motor will move the mass a lot easier than it would with a 3 speed automatic and a shorter stroke motor


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1777026
03/11/15 04:44 PM
03/11/15 04:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
68-scatpack-rt Offline
In thin ice
68-scatpack-rt  Offline
In thin ice

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
Callies dragonslayer crank if you want a USA forging.


unions....the folks who brought you the weekend!
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 68-scatpack-rt] #1777027
03/11/15 09:37 PM
03/11/15 09:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632
SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
72N96RR Offline
I LOVE WEDGIES
72N96RR  Offline
I LOVE WEDGIES

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632
SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
my 400 stroker build shortblock 512 on pump gas
4.250 Eagle crank
6.535 Chevy H Beam rods
Diamond custom dish pistons 18cc
10.95 comp with 75 cc heads
.990 piston pins
Drill n tap for 1/2 in oil pickup
clevite main and rod bearings
BMRE 400 Aluminum caps
Diamond moly rings
undecided on cam selection
been suggested to go with a mechanical flat tappet cam n solid lifters
between 250 and 265 degrees

280-320 cfm heads..undecided on which brand

600 plus horse ???
comments, changes, and criticism is welcome!!!!


1972 Road Runner / GTX 440 4spd Dana 3.54 Just about to turn 26K original miles..

A boat, a GMC truck, some Craftsman Tools, LOTS of Zombie Protection, and a few Goldfish..

If you love someone set them free..
If they come back it means nobody else wanted them either..!!
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777028
03/11/15 09:44 PM
03/11/15 09:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,554
DC, MD Suburbs
440PURSUIT Offline OP
pro stock
440PURSUIT  Offline OP
pro stock

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,554
DC, MD Suburbs
The 383 did 640hp as a 496 and iron -1's with hydraulic roller.
I will find specs.

I am using billet caps from 400 that blew up in the Demon before I got it.

I assume a Main Girdle is in store.
Whose product would be good?

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777029
03/11/15 10:57 PM
03/11/15 10:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,223
Bend,OR USA
Quote:



I am using billet caps from 400 that blew up in the Demon before I got it.

I assume a Main Girdle is in store.
Whose product would be good?


I have seen and looked at several different brands of main girdles for Mopar BB motors, I don't own or use one due to the fact that the oil pan studs don't limit or add any strength to the girdles, the main studs limit the for and aft movement of the girdles but do not strenthen the bottom of the block that I can see I do beleive in and use better main caps and main studs on stock blocks,
but no girdles Put that money for the girdle and machine shop charges towards a good race block instead Every part in every production motor has a designed fatique limit built into at the factory, once you exceed that limit your on your own


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 72N96RR] #1777030
03/12/15 03:43 AM
03/12/15 03:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234
Brisvegas, Australia
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Alchemi Offline
enthusiast
Alchemi  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234
Brisvegas, Australia
Why the big 18cc dish on the pistons?
You will loose quench and squish completely - better off with a larger cc head and flat tops

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: Alchemi] #1777031
03/12/15 11:47 AM
03/12/15 11:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Why the big 18cc dish on the pistons?
You will loose quench and squish completely - better off with a larger cc head and flat tops




I had to go with 22cc dish pistons on my 416 so
I could run on pump crap.. 87 octane for the street
and 93 for the track... still has a .040 quench

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777032
03/13/15 03:39 AM
03/13/15 03:39 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
451Mopar  Offline
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
Cubic inch wise, not much difference in the 4.15" stroke vs. 4.25" stroke. I think the 4.15" longer rod configuration is better suited for a high RPM engine (slightly lighter and less stress at high RPM), and the 4.25" shorter rod engine might work better in a street car where the higher piston speed may help lower RPM cylinder fill, and the shorter dwell at TDC may help reduce pinging on low octane fuel?

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 451Mopar] #1777033
03/13/15 10:21 AM
03/13/15 10:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,010
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
I Live Here
gregsdart  Offline
I Live Here

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Posts: 10,010
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
With 440-1 heads, you will have more than enough head, so big cubes and a light rotating assembly will work best. A long rod 512 motor produces a lighter bob weight than a 499, which is an advantage of being easier on a stock block plus it is 2.5 percent bigger. That may not be much but I will take the 2.5 percent extra torque in a street car any day.
Considering that you have 440-1 heads, those heads have the runner volume to put peak torque as high as 5200 rpm, so the more cubes, the better off you are for low speed and mid range. I can see the advantages of even more stroke than 4.25 in a deal like yours. I would go as big as I can and still get a decent piston in it that will live a good street life.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: gregsdart] #1777034
03/13/15 01:42 PM
03/13/15 01:42 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
451Mopar  Offline
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Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
Quote:

With 440-1 heads, you will have more than enough head, so big cubes and a light rotating assembly will work best. A long rod 512 motor produces a lighter bob weight than a 499, which is an advantage of being easier on a stock block plus it is 2.5 percent bigger. That may not be much but I will take the 2.5 percent extra torque in a street car any day.
Considering that you have 440-1 heads, those heads have the runner volume to put peak torque as high as 5200 rpm, so the more cubes, the better off you are for low speed and mid range. I can see the advantages of even more stroke than 4.25 in a deal like yours. I would go as big as I can and still get a decent piston in it that will live a good street life.




Long rod 512 low deck sounds nice, I would guess that uses a 6.700" rod and pistons like those from the 4.15" stroker?

Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 451Mopar] #1777035
03/13/15 02:07 PM
03/13/15 02:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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moper Offline
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Columbia, CT
Did a 496 last spring. If you use MM make sure you get on his list for those pistons early... They'll charge your card right away but those pistons were a delay for us. As far as size goes - with anything that big - you won't be disppointed. Don't overthink it. make sure that what you have is in good shape, and use it.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: moper] #1777036
03/13/15 02:14 PM
03/13/15 02:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
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Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Just keep in mind that it has to run hard for hours not seconds and the power curve/HP curve is much different than a drag car. I wouldn't build a drag engine for a "track" car.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 451Mopar] #1777037
03/13/15 04:26 PM
03/13/15 04:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,010
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
I Live Here
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Posts: 10,010
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Quote:

Quote:

With 440-1 heads, you will have more than enough head, so big cubes and a light rotating assembly will work best. A long rod 512 motor produces a lighter bob weight than a 499, which is an advantage of being easier on a stock block plus it is 2.5 percent bigger. That may not be much but I will take the 2.5 percent extra torque in a street car any day.
Considering that you have 440-1 heads, those heads have the runner volume to put peak torque as high as 5200 rpm, so the more cubes, the better off you are for low speed and mid range. I can see the advantages of even more stroke than 4.25 in a deal like yours. I would go as big as I can and still get a decent piston in it that will live a good street life.




Long rod 512 low deck sounds nice, I would guess that uses a 6.700" rod and pistons like those from the 4.15" stroker?


the 512 requires a .050 change in total piston pin height compared to the 4.150. A 4.25 stroke package could be 6.535 rods, 1.320 pistons, zero deck at 9.980.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: 400 stroker advice-parts source????? [Re: 440PURSUIT] #1777038
03/13/15 07:28 PM
03/13/15 07:28 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,378
Back In Iowa
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belv2vert66 Offline
pro stock
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,378
Back In Iowa
Quote:

Building a motor for the pro tour charger which will have five speed overdrive in a 3800 pound + 69 charger air-conditioning and fuel injected.

For this type car is the 499 with the longer rod preferred over a 511?

Also who would be a premium parts supplier for rotating assembly?

This is a rework of the 383 based motor I initially built. Aluminum Indy – 1's will be employed.

Thanks in advance




I have a 383 based 496 in my Newport. It is kind of my version of a classic cruiser/pro tour with a little bit of attitude. We used 440 source stuff and the motor went together well. Eddy heads and a small hydraulic roller cam. Made just shy of 500 hp and 600 ft lbs of torque. Drove the car home from Iowa to Maryland without a hitch. It is beyond loads of fun to drive and honestly the torque is insane. A person can get in trouble in a hurry on the street with it. Casual burn out below with the cut outs closed.

www.youtube.com/embed/_SkhPU8IOcQ"

and one with them open

https://youtu.be/XFrd7I0zXQE

Last edited by belv2vert66; 03/13/15 07:47 PM.
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