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Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
#1738667
01/25/15 11:49 PM
01/25/15 11:49 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
68-scatpack-rt
OP
In thin ice
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OP
In thin ice
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
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Hello all.
Wondering how you guys are setting up your valvetrain geometry.
Is anyone here using the mid lift method or are you guys just trying to get a centered scrub on the valve stem regardless of how wide the scrub is?
Thoughts?
unions....the folks who brought you the weekend!
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: 68-scatpack-rt]
#1738671
01/26/15 08:17 PM
01/26/15 08:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,869
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,869
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
No, you do not have to live with what you get!!! Total nonsense. Rocker geometry has to do with way more than just the rocker arm, and any roller rocker that will fit the head can have correct geometry.
Holy crap, here we go ... !!!!
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: 68-scatpack-rt]
#1738672
01/26/15 08:41 PM
01/26/15 08:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
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Depends on how serious the engine is and how much money/time you want to spend on it.
For a typical street/strip SB or BB you just have to live with what you get. If you buy a good set of rocker arms then you'll be okay for .550 to .600 type lift.
If you're going to run more than .700 lift then you'll need to spend some time sorting it out. Once you get past .800 lift you'll probably need to switch to Jesel or T&D to get anything that will work.
For really high spring pressure you'll want to use the 2/3 lift rule rather than mid-lift. The 2/3 lift rule minimizes the amount of travel under load but the total scrub pattern is wider than the mid-lift method.
No, you do not have to live with what you get!!! Total nonsense. Rocker geometry has to do with way more than just the rocker arm, and any roller rocker that will fit the head can have correct geometry.
Are you correcting geometry with longer or shorter valves? Lash caps? Shaft shims?
Can you elaborate on your setup methods and the desired result you are after?
Thanks,
Rob
He doesnt like to say due to that he is trying to
run a business correcting the geometry for people...
he dont like to share
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1738676
01/26/15 10:14 PM
01/26/15 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Quote:
He doesnt like to say due to that he is trying to
run a business correcting the geometry for people...
he dont like to share
I don't mind sharing with people who don't mind hearing. I guess every time Andy says "in my book" he isn't really trying to sell it, even though he doesn't outright tell you what's in the book. Come to think of it, I'm tired of hearing stuff like "it doesn't look to bad for a Mopar", as if Mopar guys are second class car guys who don't deserve better. Or, how about this one, "serious racers step to Jesel or T&D rockers". I guess the guy who can only afford Cranes isn't really serious about winning when he rolls through the gate every weekend. After all, he is bracket racing. I've never met a dedicated racer yet who wasn't serious. Oh, and by the way, education is costly, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't give every last detail of what I know away for nothing when it cost me dearly and I worked my backside off for it. Call your favorite NASCAR shop and ask how they turn 9500 rpm for hours on a superspeedway, and see what they tell you. And you have the nerve to say I don't want to share. At least I stepped up and offered and alternative to "it's not too bad for a Mopar". I guess that's not being helpful.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738678
01/26/15 10:19 PM
01/26/15 10:19 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Had a 440 this week--.005 off the decks, new uncut Indys, 1009 gasket, Comp 829 lifters etc Harland Sharp rockers, Manley valves--well...it took lash caps on top of the valves to get it close enough--the mix of parts, the stack up of tolorences etc ya just never know--Shaft mounted Mopar stuff is a PIA for these reasons--If you get it decent close it will be AOK--we have bred in a mess with the smorgasboard of parts we now use--shim the shaft, have lash caps on hand and go on with it. Indys Hemi heads have the two clamps on the shaft top and bottom allowing flat shims to correct--great idea that should be incorporated in all after market Mopar heads IMO
Man! I complimented Indy--what was I thinking!!!!!!
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738679
01/26/15 10:20 PM
01/26/15 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
68-scatpack-rt
OP
In thin ice
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OP
In thin ice
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Are you correcting geometry with longer or shorter valves? Lash caps? Shaft shims?
Can you elaborate on your setup methods and the desired result you are after?
Thanks,
Rob
I correct the geometry by moving the fulcrum centerline to the proper location. Up, down, sideways, wherever it needs to be for a specific motor. I go for the rocker geometry points to be perpendicular to the valve at 1/2 lift with a roller rocker.
Thanks for the reply.
That's my understanding of properly setup geometry as well. Some guys still shoot for a centered scrub and call it good. I was just wondering, with the shaft mount rockers, what methods were employed to move the fulcrum in relation to the tip of the valve stem.
I can see shimming the shaft up or machining the recess down but, moving the fulcrum laterally closer or furthur away from the valve stem has me puzzled.
It's my understanding that the distance from the trunion centerline to the roller axle centerline varies with rocker arm manufacturers. Is that a true statement for the mopar aftermarket rocker arms?
Trying to learn as much as humanly possible as I'll be setting up a valvetrain on my 440 later this year and I'm a detail nerd.
Thanks again,
Rob
unions....the folks who brought you the weekend!
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: 68-scatpack-rt]
#1738680
01/26/15 10:28 PM
01/26/15 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Are you correcting geometry with longer or shorter valves? Lash caps? Shaft shims?
Can you elaborate on your setup methods and the desired result you are after?
Thanks,
Rob
I correct the geometry by moving the fulcrum centerline to the proper location. Up, down, sideways, wherever it needs to be for a specific motor. I go for the rocker geometry points to be perpendicular to the valve at 1/2 lift with a roller rocker.
Thanks for the reply.
That's my understanding of properly setup geometry as well. Some guys still shoot for a centered scrub and call it good. I was just wondering, with the shaft mount rockers, what methods were employed to move the fulcrum in relation to the tip of the valve stem.
I can see shimming the shaft up or machining the recess down but, moving the fulcrum laterally closer or furthur away from the valve stem has me puzzled.
It's my understanding that the distance from the trunion centerline to the roller axle centerline varies with rocker arm manufacturers. Is that a true statement for the mopar aftermarket rocker arms?
Trying to learn as much as humanly possible as I'll be setting up a valvetrain on my 440 later this year and I'm a detail nerd.
Thanks again,
Rob
No problem Rob,
Whenever the shafts are raised, or lowered for that matter, the rocker c-line and the valve c-line get closer or further apart, so the shafts need to be offset to maintain the proper distance to keep the roller on the tip of the valve, preferably at the center. With the differences in rocker lengths, as you mentioned, some need to be offset more than others. I show some pics on my website, and it won't cost you a dime. How's that for sharing? 
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: ]
#1738681
01/26/15 10:35 PM
01/26/15 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
|
Quote:
Had a 440 this week--.005 off the decks, new uncut Indys, 1009 gasket, Comp 829 lifters etc Harland Sharp rockers, Manley valves--well...it took lash caps on top of the valves to get it close enough--the mix of parts, the stack up of tolorences etc ya just never know--Shaft mounted Mopar stuff is a PIA for these reasons--If you get it decent close it will be AOK--we have bred in a mess with the smorgasboard of parts we now use--shim the shaft, have lash caps on hand and go on with it. Indys Hemi heads have the two clamps on the shaft top and bottom allowing flat shims to correct--great idea that should be incorporated in all after market Mopar heads IMO
Man! I complimented Indy--what was I thinking!!!!!!
I hate to tell ya, but the Harlands are too long, which is why you needed the lash caps to center the roller, but you should have actually raised the rocker and offset it to center the roller. I'll bet you have a lot of sweep across the tip.
Barton uses a setup like that for the Hemi's, but the stands have to be on the same angle as the valve to use a flat shim, which Barton's is. Oh yea, WHAT were you thinking? 
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738682
01/26/15 10:44 PM
01/26/15 10:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
68-scatpack-rt
OP
In thin ice
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OP
In thin ice
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
|
That's a great tech article mike!
Crazy how guys will obsess over can specs and then flush it away with wacky valvetrain setup.
unions....the folks who brought you the weekend!
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738684
01/27/15 01:48 AM
01/27/15 01:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,869
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,869
Ontario, Canada
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, you do not have to live with what you get!!! Total nonsense. Rocker geometry has to do with way more than just the rocker arm, and any roller rocker that will fit the head can have correct geometry.
Holy crap, here we go ... !!!!
Stanton,
I believe I talked to you at Carlisle two years ago about this subject, and if I recall, several times you returned an I answered your questions. You got it then, even when one gentleman argued with me until he stomped off in a huff. I can explain the principles behind the way I do things, but some others never explain why they give advice other than they read it in a book somewhere.
Yes, you're correct. But you know that this opens a whole can of worms!
And to address Mr P Body's point about this gentleman trying to run a business and not liking to share, let's not forget that AndyF rarely misses an opportunity to promote and peddle his wares! Will Andy give you his timing cover CNC program? The answer is a simple NO. So why should this gentleman disclose his secrets. He tells you "how" he achieves near perfect geometry, the math is his proprietary information. Just like Andy's CNC program, if you want it - go figure it out for yourself.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738685
01/27/15 10:15 AM
01/27/15 10:15 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Had a 440 this week--.005 off the decks, new uncut Indys, 1009 gasket, Comp 829 lifters etc Harland Sharp rockers, Manley valves--well...it took lash caps on top of the valves to get it close enough--the mix of parts, the stack up of tolorences etc ya just never know--Shaft mounted Mopar stuff is a PIA for these reasons--If you get it decent close it will be AOK--we have bred in a mess with the smorgasboard of parts we now use--shim the shaft, have lash caps on hand and go on with it. Indys Hemi heads have the two clamps on the shaft top and bottom allowing flat shims to correct--great idea that should be incorporated in all after market Mopar heads IMO
Man! I complimented Indy--what was I thinking!!!!!!
I hate to tell ya, but the Harlands are too long, which is why you needed the lash caps to center the roller, but you should have actually raised the rocker and offset it to center the roller. I'll bet you have a lot of sweep across the tip.
Barton uses a setup like that for the Hemi's, but the stands have to be on the same angle as the valve to use a flat shim, which Barton's is. Oh yea, WHAT were you thinking?
Yep BIG sweep but ....it was a ton better and lots of Mops run Harlands and live so WTH--I am not in a position to re-engineer all of the parts for these things--nor do I want to--I bet he will race well with it and win some races--will it be less than correct SURE it will--could I have done more --not without spending more of his $$$ for marginal gain so out the door she goes--
It is what it is--I made the best of it. 
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