|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
#173707
12/24/08 11:02 AM
12/24/08 11:02 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
i've made rocker stands before for other heads. the only thing that comes into question on these heads is if there's enough material thickness to drill and tap for a longer stud after milling the old stand off.
Bob, i always put a dowel pin in to locate the stands also.
Can't speak for the Zeekers,but it workes ok for stock heads as well as Indys. 
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
#173708
12/24/08 11:46 AM
12/24/08 11:46 AM
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
ok fellows. the shims were made out of soft copper so that it would conform to the pedestal. now these heads needed the rocker shaft raised up .120" the get the roller tip to travel in the correct arc, without them the tip was at the inside of the valve tip and wouldn't even ride close to the center during it's travel. this happened only on the center pedestal which is the tall one, about 3 times taller than the others. when dan did the valve job on the heads he did find the middle pedestal cracked on the other head and repaired it, sharp eye i must say. the pedestal in the pic is the middle one on the unrepaired head , ther was no visable sign of of crack and it broke when i started to torque them and that happened at a mere 20ft.lbs. the other head where dan repaired the pedestal made it to full torque fine. the owner does have a stud kit for the heads and will use it now that the rocker arms are all shimed side to side correctly, even using the studs i have to assume it would have broke anyway. so with due respect to everyone did the heads have the wrong valves in them from the gitgo because the previous owner had ground the underside of the rockers for clearance on the top of the retainers. something was wrong for sure for the pedestals to be .120" too low. the valves seats do not appear to have been sunk excessively, especially somewhere in the .080" range. to correct all this the pedestal will need repaired and the others all raised up .120" to get everything happy. i have full faith in dan's abilities to accomplish this repair.
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
#173709
12/24/08 11:54 AM
12/24/08 11:54 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
ok fellows. the shims were made out of soft copper so that it would conform to the pedestal. now these heads needed the rocker shaft raised up .120" the get the roller tip to travel in the correct arc, without them the tip was at the inside of the valve tip and wouldn't even ride close to the center during it's travel. this happened only on the center pedestal which is the tall one, about 3 times taller than the others. when dan did the valve job on the heads he did find the middle pedestal cracked on the other head and repaired it, sharp eye i must say. the pedestal in the pic is the middle one on the unrepaired head , ther was no visable sign of of crack and it broke when i started to torque them and that happened at a mere 20ft.lbs. the other head where dan repaired the pedestal made it to full torque fine. the owner does have a stud kit for the heads and will use it now that the rocker arms are all shimed side to side correctly, even using the studs i have to assume it would have broke anyway. so with due respect to everyone did the heads have the wrong valves in them from the gitgo because the previous owner had ground the underside of the rockers for clearance on the top of the retainers. something was wrong for sure for the pedestals to be .120" too low. the valves seats do not appear to have been sunk excessively, especially somewhere in the .080" range. to correct all this the pedestal will need repaired and the others all raised up .120" to get everything happy. i have full faith in dan's abilities to accomplish this repair.
Bob,as old as these heads are,who knows what they have been subjected to in their past history.I don't think anyone questioned Dan's ability here.
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: B G Racing]
#173710
12/24/08 12:08 PM
12/24/08 12:08 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
|
Yeah the thicker shims pry the pedestal apart with the combination of heat cycling, bolt clamping force and the constant stresses of the valvetrain. If you think about it the pedestals themselves are relatively fragile to begin with and ironically the weakest pedestals (the ones that are hollowed for the oil passage) are the ones that are right between the heavier intake valves.... even though they are a lot wider they're not really that much stronger at the cup when you put a thick shim on them. I remember racers in the early 70's were already starting to mill them down for blocks because they didn't want to risk a ton of hours in ported iron heads and expensive valvetrain for a cast pedestal. There was a reason the Race W2's had blocks.
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/24/08 12:16 PM.
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: B G Racing]
#173711
12/24/08 01:43 PM
12/24/08 01:43 PM
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Quote:
ok fellows. the shims were made out of soft copper so that it would conform to the pedestal. now these heads needed the rocker shaft raised up .120" the get the roller tip to travel in the correct arc, without them the tip was at the inside of the valve tip and wouldn't even ride close to the center during it's travel. this happened only on the center pedestal which is the tall one, about 3 times taller than the others. when dan did the valve job on the heads he did find the middle pedestal cracked on the other head and repaired it, sharp eye i must say. the pedestal in the pic is the middle one on the unrepaired head , ther was no visable sign of of crack and it broke when i started to torque them and that happened at a mere 20ft.lbs. the other head where dan repaired the pedestal made it to full torque fine. the owner does have a stud kit for the heads and will use it now that the rocker arms are all shimed side to side correctly, even using the studs i have to assume it would have broke anyway. so with due respect to everyone did the heads have the wrong valves in them from the gitgo because the previous owner had ground the underside of the rockers for clearance on the top of the retainers. something was wrong for sure for the pedestals to be .120" too low. the valves seats do not appear to have been sunk excessively, especially somewhere in the .080" range. to correct all this the pedestal will need repaired and the others all raised up .120" to get everything happy. i have full faith in dan's abilities to accomplish this repair.
Bob,as old as these heads are,who knows what they have been subjected to in their past history.I don't think anyone questioned Dan's ability here.
this statment is a non-issue here because no one is questioning it and i truely feel dan is the man to fix this problem.
Last edited by bOb shingler; 12/24/08 06:12 PM.
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: tjmarcus1]
#173714
12/24/08 03:06 PM
12/24/08 03:06 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,119
sc
tjmarcus1
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,119
sc
|
Quote:
Quote:
The shims I used some years back were thick on the bottom
.015 or .030 and thin on the walls, almost 0
ditto! divorak has the correct ones that seem to work.
i would not doubt dan's skill level, and am not into bashing him. if my post was interpreted as such, then i humbly apologize. dan is the man
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: BradH]
#173715
12/24/08 03:08 PM
12/24/08 03:08 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
BDS871Cuda
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
|
Just a question for Dram,
How good are Zeeker heads? Like flow and stuff.
Edelbrock RPM's or Indy SR's ? Is this Dan Zeeker
were talking about?
Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: tjmarcus1]
#173716
12/24/08 03:30 PM
12/24/08 03:30 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The shims I used some years back were thick on the bottom
.015 or .030 and thin on the walls, almost 0
ditto! divorak has the correct ones that seem to work.
i would not doubt dan's skill level, and am not into bashing him. if my post was interpreted as such, then i humbly apologize. dan is the man
I dont think anyone was. I have never seen anyone
go as much as .120 but I dont see a ton of heads,
the most I have gone was .045 with the shims mentioned
above
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#173717
12/24/08 03:36 PM
12/24/08 03:36 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
|
Let me ask the machinist/builders this If the rocker stands are off that much .125 doesn't this get multiplied times the rocker ratio etc? case in point would equal to .1875 and as much as .200+ with higher rocker ratio's. I was thinking so, this would be a mile off in reality... 
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: BDS871Cuda]
#173718
12/24/08 04:20 PM
12/24/08 04:20 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
|
BDS871Cuda, the Zeekers are the predecessor to the Indy 440-1, they take the same rockers, valves, etc. Indy bought the mold from Zeeker to make the -1s they can flow about the same as a fully ported set of -1s. That's what I ran all last year and they made good power and I didn't have any issues with them. If you ever order HS rockers for -1s you'll notice the part number has a Z in it, it's because they were designed for the Zeeker heads. Mine didn't have the porosity issues that some sets had, didn't have to use shims or anything special.
Mine already had the rocker shaft pads cut down and use square blocks that mount flat to the Head shaft pedestals. Here is a pic of the HS rockers and the blocks.
Wade Metzinger 918-809-0987 71 Cuda 9.28@145 -1s, Pglide 68 Cuda 10.64@124 1.45 60's 318->390 eddys Moparts discount code on WIX - moparts www.Filter1.com
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
#173722
12/24/08 07:33 PM
12/24/08 07:33 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
|
Ouchy!!! Wouldnt studs help that problem?? And also I have never heard of using any shimms thicker than a few thou. It also puts extra side to side stresses on the bolts the farther away the threads are from the head. In this case it was nasty bad. I am going to stud my rocker shafts. I have done that in the past on Higher RPM circle engines, and it has always worked fine. 
|
|
|
Re: rocker shaft shims, what are they good for?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#173723
12/25/08 03:54 PM
12/25/08 03:54 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,560
S.E. Michigan
cl440
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,560
S.E. Michigan
|
Quote:
The shims I used some years back were thick on the bottom
.015 or .030 and thin on the walls, almost 0
I have that same type of "tapered" shim on my Charger's 440. Bought them 20yrs. ago from Mancini I believe? I have never been able to find them since?
|
|
|
|
|
