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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726461
01/10/15 04:56 PM
01/10/15 04:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
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Air in the system is always a possibility. But if you're trying to brake glaze, you shouldn't be using anything finer than 80 grit. You should also be very sore afterwards
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726462
01/10/15 05:03 PM
01/10/15 05:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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What bore MC? (is the pedal effort normal/travel normal just not enough "grab" at the (4) corners?. when you stand on it do the rears lockup first? What I'd start with is put it up on stands & run it in gear & see how the rears brake then spin the fronts by hand as a helper hits the brakes. That'd at least be a start. Others will chime in/advise further. PS Make SURE you are braked to a standstill before shifting to park etc (the illusion fools you cuz the vehicle ain't moving)
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726464
01/10/15 05:38 PM
01/10/15 05:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Alright, I had that on the stock car & it was a partly crimped line. You might slide a floor jack under the pig & you could get it up & see what you get & it'd be alot faster than stands (do it safely of course) but I'm thinking it might be the MC but I would bleed it out first just cuz it'd be easier than changing it & I'm assuming the pedal does not pump up at all
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726466
01/10/15 06:20 PM
01/10/15 06:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
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glazing will certainly reduce braking performance
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726468
01/10/15 07:02 PM
01/10/15 07:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 587
IL . usa
cjs69mope
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 587
IL . usa
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just make sure if you get them cut you take them to a place that does drums all the time .
i have seen places try to just do a fast cut on the drums and call it good .
well that's not good .To rough of finish is bad. The car will take longer to stop as well.
Drums need to done in two steps 1 cut fast clean up and 2 slow finish.
Don't accept any less.
also try adjusting shoes up to where the drum can't be removed easy but still spins with slight drag.
1969 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Superbee
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: Ronnman]
#1726471
01/11/15 01:13 PM
01/11/15 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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First is what shoes did you use?My kid had a shop do the brakes on the 66 Charger and they were crap because of the linings.I used to run notjing but NAPAs best.Now I run Advanced best.Drums should have been truned at least for a clean up.If they arent bad a 3M rolox disc on a die grinder will clean them up but they must be cleaned real good before install.My ? is whay run drums Unless its a show poodle or rare change to frt discs.You will never look back.Oh yeah I did brakes almost every day for 30 years as a tec.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: SportF]
#1726473
01/11/15 02:00 PM
01/11/15 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 201
Beeware
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 201
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Friend used this company. http://www.musclecarbrakes.com/bib6572charger.htmlhe bought both fronts and rear setup. His car really stops great for having 4 wheel drums. Sport F thanks for the link above the semi metallics shoes are what I've been looking for!
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726474
01/11/15 02:11 PM
01/11/15 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Should i have all drums turned provided they arent out of tolerence?Is it a necessity to put on new shoes again if i turn the drums?
Depends on how much you have driven it with the shoes wearing to the uneven surface of your worn drum.
Seriously you should upgrade at least the fronts to discs , the drum brakes never worked that great even when they were new .
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: Ronnman]
#1726475
01/11/15 03:07 PM
01/11/15 03:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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Quote:
How about posting some pictures of the brake setup with the drums removed. Sometimes the shoes get swapped front and back as well as the hardware. Additionally, sometimes a groove is worn in the backing plate and restricts the shoes movement. Anyway, post some pics and the forum will give you places to check.
Ron
I agree with this. Pictures would be good. Check for primary and secondary for being swapped. Since you changed wheel cylinders, I assume the whole system was bled thoroughly. Might be worth checking the wheel cyl. diameters just in case something was changed since 1970.
I also agree with RapidRobert on cutting, and not cutting if not needed. If you do resurface on a machine, then the shoes ought to be arced to match. Not many places still do this. Porterfield and Rochester Brake and Clutch are two places that do.
The lining material can also make a huge difference. With drums on all 4, I almost always have preferred semi-metallic, which was getting harding to find at run of the mill parts stores even 20 years ago. You may have to go to Rochester Brake or similar to get what you want.
On most brands, you can get an approximate idea of the friction generated by the lining from the edge code. For all participating manufacturers, this is either ink or impression stamped on the edge of the friction material. EE is fairly typical, FF is better. Lower second letter, such as FE, indicates the friction reduces as the lining gets hot. A lower first letter, such as DE, indicates friction improves as the lining gets hot.
Friction is just one characteristic of the lining material. If you were talking to people in the business of friction materials for racers (like Porterfield or Rochester) you could discuss how 'grabby' and how well they release as well as the amount of modulation available from different linings.
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1726477
01/11/15 04:15 PM
01/11/15 04:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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Quote:
Quote:
If i power brake it with the stock converter it moves very easy,i cant keep it from rolling.
I understand drums ain't discs but lets see if we can find out whats fubared. Even power braked the shoes oughta hold it still
I agree and based on this we know the problem impacts on or is in the front.
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: Mattax]
#1726478
01/11/15 05:33 PM
01/11/15 05:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Let's all fly off on wild tangents.
Are your front brakes properly adjusted? I'll bet no.
If they aren't then nothing else will work properly.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: JohnRR]
#1726481
01/12/15 03:54 AM
01/12/15 03:54 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 377
Riverside, California
ghostrider
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 377
Riverside, California
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Quote:
Seriously you should upgrade at least the fronts to discs , the drum brakes never worked that great even when they were new .
HUH! The big drum brakes worked great when new, beat the disc in stopping distance and if adjusted properly would do it in a nearly straight line. The disc were better at a straight line stop but the rears could still kick it around and get it squirrelly if you really pushed it. The big advantage to disc brakes has always been their ability to resist fade with repeated stops because they cool more rapidly, drums would heat up and take a longer distance to stop with quick repeat stops.
I'm not talking about the little drums or even the 10 inch front drums but the muscle cars came with the 11 inch front drums in the late 60's.
If his brakes won't hold the car in place then he needs to look at too much pedal travel, too much shoe travel, or not enough pressure like from a bulging brake hose. 
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726483
03/09/15 05:23 PM
03/09/15 05:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,102
Western Md.
skicker
"The Champ"
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"The Champ"
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,102
Western Md.
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If you haven't replaced any hoses I would look there next. Especially the rear one as it holds fluid for both rear wheel brakes. They swell on the inside and restrict any volume from reaching the wheel cylinders.  Adjustment is key to keeping drum brakes working well. On the rear of mine I usually set the LR until it will hardly spin by hand and then set the RR creeping up on it till I can hardly turn the wheel.
...FAFO...
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726485
03/10/15 12:28 AM
03/10/15 12:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Man after all this I think I'd get one of these & a fitting or two & see exactly what I am getting at the corners. I'm thinking partial blockage (is a bit rare tho) unless a main line had been hit/partly crimped plus th ehoses being new or inadequate MC but didn't you say it was new. Post how it turns out
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726487
03/10/15 03:16 AM
03/10/15 03:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,653
Cut and Shoot, TX
kentj340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,653
Cut and Shoot, TX
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If drum brakes are not re-centered during adjustment, they are not properly adjusted. "...gradually move the adjuster until you have a good deal of friction on the wheel, but it is still able to turn with some effort. The next step is very important. Either with a helper in the car or by doing it yourself, hit the brake pedal hard a few times. This will re-center the shoes and you will find that a good deal of the friction will be eliminated. Re-adjust the shoes until you achieve slightly less friction than the last time. Re-apply the brake a few times. When the shoes are adjusted properly, the friction against the wheel will not be altered after the brake pedal is (hit hard and re-centered). The adjustment is correct when the shoes rub lightly against the drum..." From: http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2006/10/01/hmn_q_and_a1.html
If you don't see two dolphins, you need a vacation.
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: kentj340]
#1726488
03/10/15 10:17 AM
03/10/15 10:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,510
AZ
Mike P
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,510
AZ
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Mattax hit on this and it should probably be expanded a bit.
“….If you do resurface on a machine, then the shoes ought to be arced to match…..”
When new brake shoes are installed, especially on drums that are worn or previously turned, the arc of the shoes is smaller than the arc of the drum. This results in a just a small contact patch between the drum and shoe until the material wears into the arc of the drum. Back when 4 wheel drum brakes were the norm it was not uncommon to hear complaints about poor stopping after a brake job until the car was driven for a few hundred miles.
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears)
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: JohnH]
#1726492
03/10/15 07:50 PM
03/10/15 07:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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Wow, sounds like adjusting the arc of the shoes is a real dark science. It's not. Take your drum and put a shoe inside it. If the shoe touches in the middle but not on the ends, put it on a flat surface lining side up and hit it in the middle with a dead blow hammer. Check. Repeat until the shoe contacts the drum all the way. If the shoe touches at the ends but not the middle, turn the shoe so it's vertical, then hit on the end. Check. Repeat as necessary. It's easier than rebuilding a carburetor, only slightly harder than changing a tire. R. http://brakeperformance.com/index.php?ad=google&gclid=CLOSs9nF2rgCFS9dQgodziMAjw
Last edited by dogdays; 03/10/15 07:59 PM.
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1726495
03/11/15 02:52 AM
03/11/15 02:52 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
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Any local car guys that might give you another set of eyes? Drums work great for general use and this is totally solvable. Don't get discouraged.
I want my fair share
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: dogdays]
#1726496
03/12/15 12:41 AM
03/12/15 12:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,311
Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,311
Omaha Ne
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Quote:
Wow, sounds like adjusting the arc of the shoes is a real dark science. It's not.
Take your drum and put a shoe inside it. If the shoe touches in the middle but not on the ends, put it on a flat surface lining side up and hit it in the middle with a dead blow hammer. Check. Repeat until the shoe contacts the drum all the way. If the shoe touches at the ends but not the middle, turn the shoe so it's vertical, then hit on the end. Check. Repeat as necessary.
R.
http://brakeperformance.com/index.php?ad=google&gclid=CLOSs9nF2rgCFS9dQgodziMAjw
I agree to a point, back in the day, when the drums were turned, the shoes were arced to the drums with a now obsolete machine, ( which I have two of  ) OK fast forward 30 or so years and the material used on the linings has been superseded,( IE: improved, NOT!!) several times by cost cutting / substituting materials that work for MOST of the POPULAR applications.
A 4 wheel drum brake car from the 60's does not fit into the category of MOST POPULAR Applications for the suppliers.
The superseding of the material, losing 5 or 10% effectiveness at each revision of which there have been several) now results in a hard pedal with no effect due to , THE material being used (less effective), and the linings not having full contact with the drum
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: jst19600]
#1726498
03/26/15 02:44 AM
03/26/15 02:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Hello John, I'm glad you checked back in.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Drum brakes weak
[Re: TJP]
#1726499
03/26/15 03:10 AM
03/26/15 03:10 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Quote:
Quote:
Wow, sounds like adjusting the arc of the shoes is a real dark science. It's not.
Take your drum and put a shoe inside it. If the shoe touches in the middle but not on the ends, put it on a flat surface lining side up and hit it in the middle with a dead blow hammer. Check. Repeat until the shoe contacts the drum all the way. If the shoe touches at the ends but not the middle, turn the shoe so it's vertical, then hit on the end. Check. Repeat as necessary.
R.
http://brakeperformance.com/index.php?ad=google&gclid=CLOSs9nF2rgCFS9dQgodziMAjw
I agree to a point, back in the day, when the drums were turned, the shoes were arced to the drums with a now obsolete machine, ( which I have two of ) OK fast forward 30 or so years and the material used on the linings has been superseded,( IE: improved, NOT!!) several times by cost cutting / substituting materials that work for MOST of the POPULAR applications.
A 4 wheel drum brake car from the 60's does not fit into the category of MOST POPULAR Applications for the suppliers.
The superseding of the material, losing 5 or 10% effectiveness at each revision of which there have been several) now results in a hard pedal with no effect due to , THE material being used (less effective), and the linings not having full contact with the drum
Like everything else, asbestos was once the magic ingredient.
Drums get a bad rap all the time, but 11 inch Chrysler drums stop pretty well IMO. No its not a modern sports car, but they're ok. 10 inch on the other hand are pretty bad on a B body.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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