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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: moper]
#1708513
12/26/14 03:55 PM
12/26/14 03:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,313
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,313
Prospect, PA
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.....You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb.
I'd like to see that.
Give me a decent running 440, any year, all stock. You pay parts and the dyno test after. I'll document anything I do. It's that simple.
And how bout if it doesn't hit 400 hp you pay for the dyno pulls. 
This is not for my benefit, and I'm investing my time and others would be capitalizing on my experience. It's unfortunate others can't get good results but sometimes lack of skill and/or ignorance takes a toll.
Your comments are interesting. So you would rather have someone pay for the parts and dyno time, and you supply all of the labor, to tell us the results for something you already know, as to not give away your secret intellectual property?
You first state that +400 hp is very easy (emphasis added) with stock intake and carb, 8:1 CR compression 440 with someone's rebuilt 906 heads. Further implying it is simply a matter of a cam, ignition and tuning.
The delivery of your comments are so confident and absolute, why would you even suggest buying parts and conducting dyno runs? Why don't you instead just share with us the details on how to do it along with the objective evidence, preferably track data.
I'm all in agreement about your "tuning" comments.
I've spent considerable time and track testing on a very similar example to this. It became a respectably fast car for what it was and an absolute blast to drive in the street. It was no where near 400 hp. Open headers (are headers included in your <$1200?) and a bigger cam would have helped, but would likely not get us to 400hp.
So, I'm genuinely interested in how you have achieved over 400 hp with the described limitations, for us ignorant/lack of skill folks.
Last edited by BSB67; 12/26/14 06:58 PM.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: BSB67]
#1708514
12/27/14 02:15 AM
12/27/14 02:15 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,561
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,561
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
Maybe this will give you a few ideas. We invited the neighbors over for a 'dyno day' at the shop and made a few changes to a 7.5:1 compression 440 over about eight hours and made a dyno pull after each change. It wasn't designed to be a perfect combination, we started with stock 906 heads and used parts we had laying around.
Low compression 440 dyno test.
400 seems pretty easy as I suspected. I would think it might have done even better with the 528 solid.
Kevin
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Twostick]
#1708516
12/27/14 12:30 PM
12/27/14 12:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe this will give you a few ideas. We invited the neighbors over for a 'dyno day' at the shop and made a few changes to a 7.5:1 compression 440 over about eight hours and made a dyno pull after each change. It wasn't designed to be a perfect combination, we started with stock 906 heads and used parts we had laying around.
Low compression 440 dyno test.
400 seems pretty easy as I suspected. I would think it might have done even better with the 528 solid.
I did a ring and bearing and head refresh on a '71 440 shortblock with 452 heads. CR ended up being 9.5:1.
With a.528 MP solid, headers, recurved dist. and a 750 3310 Holley being the only mods, it did a 13.50@104mph. No traction and horrible 60ft. times. With slicks and decent springs it would've easily hit 12's. It was a torque monster on the street! 2500 stall converter and 3.23 highway gears. The .528 barely had a lope once warmed up! 320 HP at the rear wheels. I really feel the stock intake was a major cork in the combination.
My most recent build is kinda the opposite as I used a '75 shortblock that only needed rings and bearings as well. It was lower compression but I used 906 heads and a .484 MP hydraulic. It feels stronger than the previous motor but I haven't had it to the track. It too still has the cast iron lump of a dual plane but will be getting my Holley Street Dominator installed soon. May do a back to back comparison.
The recurve and degreeing in the cam is where most people miss the tuneup. Mr. Gasket #925B lightweight springs in a Chrysler electronic distributor feeding an MSD 6AL box is a great ignition!
Using the Holley 750 3310, I used the lightest weight spring in the vacuum secondaries as well and never had it bog. I have an 850 Demon that I'm going to try on the latest build.
Good flowing heads are KEY in making 440's run. The 906's have a slight flow advantage over all the other head castings. They wake up even the soggiest low comp. motors. 
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: GY3]
#1708517
12/27/14 02:16 PM
12/27/14 02:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,313
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,313
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
I did a ring and bearing and head refresh on a '71 440 shortblock with 452 heads. CR ended up being 9.5:1.
With a.528 MP solid, headers, recurved dist. and a 750 3310 Holley being the only mods, it did a [Email]13.50@104mph.[/Email] No traction and horrible 60ft. times. With slicks and decent springs it would've easily hit 12's. It was a torque monster on the street! 2500 stall converter and 3.23 highway gears. The .528 barely had a lope once warmed up! 320 HP at the rear wheels. I really feel the stock intake was a major cork in the combination.
Your compression was higher than ours, but this is where we ended up too, in both performance and conclusion. Getting the iron intake over 350 hp is the challenge, I think. 
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: BSB67]
#1708518
12/27/14 02:25 PM
12/27/14 02:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
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Quote:
Quote:
I did a ring and bearing and head refresh on a '71 440 shortblock with 452 heads. CR ended up being 9.5:1.
With a.528 MP solid, headers, recurved dist. and a 750 3310 Holley being the only mods, it did a [Email]13.50@104mph.[/Email] No traction and horrible 60ft. times. With slicks and decent springs it would've easily hit 12's. It was a torque monster on the street! 2500 stall converter and 3.23 highway gears. The .528 barely had a lope once warmed up! 320 HP at the rear wheels. I really feel the stock intake was a major cork in the combination.
Your compression was higher than ours, but this is where we ended up too, in both performance and conclusion. Getting the iron intake over 350 hp is the challenge, I think.
I'm really curious to see what the Street Dominator and 850 carb does...
Oh yeah, the latest 440 ran me about $2,600 to build with the heads being the major expense. It does have stuff that wasn't necessary like a 7 quart deep sump and aluminum water pump and housing. Truly one of the nicest original block/crank combo's I've encountered. I paid $375 for the core motor.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: GY3]
#1708519
12/28/14 02:20 AM
12/28/14 02:20 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe this will give you a few ideas. We invited the neighbors over for a 'dyno day' at the shop and made a few changes to a 7.5:1 compression 440 over about eight hours and made a dyno pull after each change. It wasn't designed to be a perfect combination, we started with stock 906 heads and used parts we had laying around.
Low compression 440 dyno test.
400 seems pretty easy as I suspected. I would think it might have done even better with the 528 solid.
With the 528 cam motor, did it have a stock intake? I don't doubt you, just surprised that such little mod would make so much power. Stock was 375 crank hp on my 67 440to get that much reap would be tough.
I did a ring and bearing and head refresh on a '71 440 shortblock with 452 heads. CR ended up being 9.5:1.
With a.528 MP solid, headers, recurved dist. and a 750 3310 Holley being the only mods, it did a [Email]13.50@104mph.[/Email] No traction and horrible 60ft. times. With slicks and decent springs it would've easily hit 12's. It was a torque monster on the street! 2500 stall converter and 3.23 highway gears. The .528 barely had a lope once warmed up! 320 HP at the rear wheels. I really feel the stock intake was a major cork in the combination.
My most recent build is kinda the opposite as I used a '75 shortblock that only needed rings and bearings as well. It was lower compression but I used 906 heads and a .484 MP hydraulic. It feels stronger than the previous motor but I haven't had it to the track. It too still has the cast iron lump of a dual plane but will be getting my Holley Street Dominator installed soon. May do a back to back comparison.
The recurve and degreeing in the cam is where most people miss the tuneup. Mr. Gasket #925B lightweight springs in a Chrysler electronic distributor feeding an MSD 6AL box is a great ignition!
Using the Holley 750 3310, I used the lightest weight spring in the vacuum secondaries as well and never had it bog. I have an 850 Demon that I'm going to try on the latest build.
Good flowing heads are KEY in making 440's run. The 906's have a slight flow advantage over all the other head castings. They wake up even the soggiest low comp. motors.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: moper]
#1708521
12/28/14 10:01 PM
12/28/14 10:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
.....You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb.
I'd like to see that.
Give me a decent running 440, any year, all stock. You pay parts and the dyno test after. I'll document anything I do. It's that simple.
And how bout if it doesn't hit 400 hp you pay for the dyno pulls.
This is not for my benefit, and I'm investing my time and others would be capitalizing on my experience. It's unfortunate others can't get good results but sometimes lack of skill and/or ignorance takes a toll.
Sorry for the delay, I usaully respond quicker when being insulted but I was off galavanting with my family so not really on the computer. YOUR statement was 400 easily without gettting into anything beyond the cam, my statement was put your money where your experience is. You said nothing of heads or distributor work or even carb work, you said nothing beyong the cam, if you are so sure you can do it then agreeing to pay for the pulls if it doesn't yeild 400+ would just be academic. I believe though my experience, maybe worse maybe better, that is a tall claim.How can I loose, if I delivered to you a solid smogger and I walk away with a 400+ HP engine for the cost of a cam swap & set up and some dyno time, I'd be all in. If you fail to deliver I am still out time and money to get you the engine. I just think you made a statement that cant be proven true, even on paper. 
I'm running a truck and trailer up to PA in the next week or so with enough extra room for an engine, should I bring it to you?
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: mopar346]
#1708522
12/29/14 02:34 PM
12/29/14 02:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,488
Annapolis, MD, USA
Vert
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,488
Annapolis, MD, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
.....You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb.
I'd like to see that.
Give me a decent running 440, any year, all stock. You pay parts and the dyno test after. I'll document anything I do. It's that simple.
And how bout if it doesn't hit 400 hp you pay for the dyno pulls.
This is not for my benefit, and I'm investing my time and others would be capitalizing on my experience. It's unfortunate others can't get good results but sometimes lack of skill and/or ignorance takes a toll.
Sorry for the delay, I usaully respond quicker when being insulted but I was off galavanting with my family so not really on the computer. YOUR statement was 400 easily without gettting into anything beyond the cam, my statement was put your money where your experience is. You said nothing of heads or distributor work or even carb work, you said nothing beyong the cam, if you are so sure you can do it then agreeing to pay for the pulls if it doesn't yeild 400+ would just be academic. I believe though my experience, maybe worse maybe better, that is a tall claim.How can I loose, if I delivered to you a solid smogger and I walk away with a 400+ HP engine for the cost of a cam swap & set up and some dyno time, I'd be all in. If you fail to deliver I am still out time and money to get you the engine. I just think you made a statement that cant be proven true, even on paper.
I'm running a truck and trailer up to PA in the next week or so with enough extra room for an engine, should I bring it to you?
I believe the secret involves porting and polishing the intake manifold bolt holes, tying a knot in the PCV hose, and swapping the carb mixture screws side to side. And putting tiny lifejackets on the carb floats. Each of these mods is covered in my new tuning book "Go Fast or Die Trying" available here for $10. 
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Vert]
#1708523
12/29/14 03:08 PM
12/29/14 03:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Although I am familiar with those mods and their effectiveness, they are beyond the cam, so not eligible or needed by his description.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Fern]
#1708526
03/28/15 11:18 AM
03/28/15 11:18 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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I would guess around 30. It will be significant.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 03/28/15 11:19 AM.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: GY3]
#1708527
03/28/15 11:31 AM
03/28/15 11:31 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
With a.528 MP solid, headers, recurved dist. and a 750 3310 Holley being the only mods, it did a [Email]13.50@104mph.[/Email] No traction and horrible 60ft. times. With slicks and decent springs it would've easily hit 12's. It was a torque monster on the street!
I had a low compression 440 in my GTX for a bit.
Stock heads, 509 cam, headers, TM7 intake with a TQ and a manual trans and it made several 12.6 passes on slicks without breaking a sweat.
I'd not worry about the shortblock too much. Pop in a better cam, find an aluminum intake like a Performer RPM or one of the DP4B? dual planes with a 750-850 cfm carb, headers mandatory and recurve the distributor and go have fun on pump swill gas.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Fern]
#1708530
03/28/15 12:06 PM
03/28/15 12:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
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Are they "logs" as in lo-perf or the HP manifolds.
If truly the logs, I would try a set of headers with the thicker 3/8" flanges. Or not waste my time. Too much left on the table.
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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