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Re: How much to build 440? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #1708473
12/11/14 09:20 PM
12/11/14 09:20 PM
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Holly/MI
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Dean_Kuzluzski Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Do we know if the low comp pistons are even still in there? Sounds like a rebuild was done. ???




Have you EVER come across a rebuild that didn't have junk pistons in it? Ever? Once? I swear there is a conspiracy amongst part-counter salesmen to only sell stuff designed in the 60's. To most hot rod guys, TRW and Speed-Pro are cutting edge.

I'm betting the car its got either stock junk, jobber junk, or expensive 'cutting edge' TRW/SP junk in it. 9 times out ov 10, if the builder wanted high compression you'll find domed junk in there...




Uh yeah, all the time. Not all rebuilds are "reman" jobs. Who knows what he has?




Yeah, I actually HAVE a shortblock that was built by a small timey engine builder and he used the KB hypereutectics. This was around 2008, so those carried on, or are slightly above, the jobber/reman cast slugs.


R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Fern] #1708474
12/11/14 11:09 PM
12/11/14 11:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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1) Do you guys actually believe that there is a conspiracy causing the surplus junk Mopar rebuilds? Let me tell you why there are so many junk Mopar rebuilds out there: Many Mopar guys are cheap, and not too tech savvy.

2)The TRW/Speed Pro replacement 2355 replacement piston has a nice compression height, and use to be both a quality piece. Today, it only has the nice compression height.

3) My experience is that all mopar engines that are rebuilt are rebuilt with junk/marginally adequate parts unless the seller can speak intelligently about the parts and articulate part numbers and compression heights.

4)I cannot tell you how many guys cannot help themselves and buy "good deal" motors no matter how hard you plead against it. For a guy looking for a performance motor, they are money losers. They either plow a bunch of money in them to make them a nice low compression motor, or they start from scratch.

Last edited by BSB67; 12/11/14 11:33 PM.
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: BSB67] #1708475
12/11/14 11:33 PM
12/11/14 11:33 PM
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Posts: 3,054
USA
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b54406barrel Offline
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USA
Plenty of ways to skin a cat. If there weren't, we'd all be driving model T's, at best!

Oops, forgot the original question. I think I'll be able to get 13's with my $300, spare parts motor.

Last edited by b54406barrel; 12/11/14 11:43 PM.
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Fern] #1708476
12/12/14 01:04 AM
12/12/14 01:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,126
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Bend,OR USA
400 HP is easy, 500 HP takes a little more knowledge and part selection. You really need to know what pistons and what deck hieght your motor has now before starting down the road to building more power I've built a bunch of 440 pump gas motors over the years, all the BB Mopars need and love more air and fuel in and out of the motor The more air with the proper ratio of fuel the more power the motor will make No magic here Real quick formula for 450 + hp, 9.5 to 1 compression on any pump swill, 850 CFM carb, 1 7/8 or 2.00 inch headers, Performer RPM intake, camshaft that has at least 240 degrees at .050 intake lift with as much lobe lift you can find( 1.6 rocker arm ratio is good ), ground on 106 to 110 lobe seperation angle, installed 4 to 6 degrees advance on the intake lobe center, heads that will flow at least 260 CFM at .500 and above valve opening. One of the last stock stroke pump gas motors I built with a set of midly ported 906 heads with 2.14 intake valves and1.81 ex. valves, Eddy Performer intake with a Holley 950 HP carb. made 535 HP at 6100 RPM and more torque than HP with a pretty big weird grind solid lifter cam,all on 91 octane CA pump swill The customer loves it, 1965 Satelite with all the extras, no light weight either Think twice, or more , act once


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: BSB67] #1708477
12/12/14 01:49 AM
12/12/14 01:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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CT
Quote:

3) My experience is that all mopar engines that are rebuilt are rebuilt with junk/marginally adequate parts unless the seller can speak intelligently about the parts and articulate part numbers and compression heights.






Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: GTX MATT] #1708478
12/12/14 12:02 PM
12/12/14 12:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
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the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Measurable differences would likely be low, its more of a strength issue. I wouldn't hesitate to put an engine together with them. They're old but nothing wrong with them, similar to the Purpleshaft cams and 906 heads. Lots of cars have gone really fast with 2355s, six pack rods, 906 heads, and a 509 cam.

The main thing with the TRWs are they're just expensive as anything else, not worth ponying up the same dough when there are WAAAY better options for the same price.




Fixed it.

Its not the weight. Its the compression height. Quench was old news ages ago and people are STILL building engines without? I'd wager that if ALL these JUNK pistons just suddenly disappeared in the 70's and you could ONLY get proper zero deck pistons (and lets just make all 906 and 452 heads closed chamber while we're dreaming) i bet a lot more old cars would still be driving around. People still equate old big blocks with single digit MPG and only occasional fun... it doesn't have to be this way.

I dont know... maybe its just more hillbilly where i live... but it seems that every Mopar i run across is the same 440 w pop-ups, 906 heads, fat Holley, MP cam, open-headered mess... usually with steep gears and a hairy convertor. They get driven so infrequently they never get sorted out, they're embarrassingly slow and ov course, because they go through gas like a nitro hemi they never get driven. ALL the Mopars are gone. All i see now are Camaros and Mustangs, some Chevelles, some Novas... why? because it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE how to build a modern-spec engine, and most ov the parts they find have more modern design, or hell... its easy just to swap in an LS or cheapo crate 351. Again... maybe its better where you guys live, but all i see are purpleshaft cams and 2lb pop-ups in crazy lookin' Mopars that run 14's. Hell... high tech exhaust in this camp seems to be electric cut-outs... (dont get me started).

/rant.

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1708479
12/12/14 01:53 PM
12/12/14 01:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,603
Central Ohio
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BMChrysler68 Offline
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Are there any good production piston options available?


1968 Plymouth Fury III
2dr FT, 383-4v, 4 speed

1972 AMC Ambassador SST wagon
360-4v, automatic

2014 Challenger R/T Classic 6-speed
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: BMChrysler68] #1708480
12/12/14 03:21 PM
12/12/14 03:21 PM
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Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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If your goal is more "snap", I'd replace the cam and valve springs, put a good ignition system on it, and either get it properly tuned, or learn to tune it. You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb. If you want to rebuild it properly for performance, it will cost somewhere between $4-5K depending on parts choices. But from what you say you have, and say you want, you have 95% of what you need. Work with a good knowledgable builder, do what is needed to get your result, and don't break the $1200 mark.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Fern] #1708481
12/12/14 03:28 PM
12/12/14 03:28 PM
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Posts: 3,488
Annapolis, MD, USA
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Vert Offline
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I love this thread. I have a zero deck 440 with E-heads, torque-plate honed, KB hyper pistons, Perf RPM, and 850 Speed Demon. Been sitting for 10 years, never fired. Gotta find a body for it. Love reading this, and figure the right cam should make 525 easy HP.

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: moper] #1708482
12/12/14 06:51 PM
12/12/14 06:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
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Idaho
Quote:

If your goal is more "snap", I'd replace the cam and valve springs, put a good ignition system on it, and either get it properly tuned, or learn to tune it. You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb. If you want to rebuild it properly for performance, it will cost somewhere between $4-5K depending on parts choices. But from what you say you have, and say you want, you have 95% of what you need. Work with a good knowledgable builder, do what is needed to get your result, and don't break the $1200 mark.




TAH DAH! Right on.

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: moper] #1708483
12/12/14 10:10 PM
12/12/14 10:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 103
M.A.
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Fern Offline OP
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Quote:

If your goal is more "snap", I'd replace the cam and valve springs, put a good ignition system on it, and either get it properly tuned, or learn to tune it. You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb. If you want to rebuild it properly for performance, it will cost somewhere between $4-5K depending on parts choices. But from what you say you have, and say you want, you have 95% of what you need. Work with a good knowledgable builder, do what is needed to get your result, and don't break the $1200 mark.




What would you recomend for a good cam and ignition system?

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Fern] #1708484
12/13/14 01:30 AM
12/13/14 01:30 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Bend,OR USA
To answer your question and not being him, I would use a Comp Cams grind, either the XE274H grind or the bigger lift XE275HL grind Install either one at 105 to 107 intake lobe center On the ignition I would probally take a chance now on one of the Firecore units based on seing the large amount failure probllems on here with the MSD 6AL digital units


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: moper] #1708485
12/13/14 10:59 AM
12/13/14 10:59 AM
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Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Quote:

.....You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb.




I'd like to see that.

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: BSB67] #1708486
12/14/14 07:23 AM
12/14/14 07:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
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the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Quote:

.....You can get beyond 400hp very easilly without gtting into anything beyond the cam, and that includes the factory intake and carb.




I'd like to see that.




I'd believe it.

The engine that ended up in my Charger was first swapped into my friends 3950lb 73 Satellite... slushbox 727, highway gears. Duals, but small duals and no headers or even HP manifolds. Nothing but a Holley 670 and a recurve. That car was a lot faster than it should have been too. The ONLY mod done to the bone stock high-mile 76 440 (before we bought it) was a small cam... really small. Sounded like a 6-pack cam to me, or maybe a big 'RV" cam. The factory cams barely had lobes on them. LOTS ov power to find there. Between those, the awful factory intake (probably carb too, never had one) and adding longtubes you'd have an entirely different engine. Like, small block to big block different. It always astounded me just how much power the factory robbed from even the HP Magnums in stock form. Almost as bad as Cadillac big blocks (KINGS ov the sleeper engines).

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1708487
12/14/14 09:09 AM
12/14/14 09:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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What did it run?

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Fern] #1708488
12/14/14 12:27 PM
12/14/14 12:27 PM
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Fern Offline OP
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After some great advice here, this is what I'm comming up with.

Hughes whiplash cam.
Headman headers 78076. ( I picked these mid length headers since I have power steering and fast ratio arms. Still waithing for a response from them if these fit without modifiction).
Holley SD intake.
Already have 770 carb.

Hopefully wake her up a little.
Anything I am missing

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: Fern] #1708489
12/14/14 01:05 PM
12/14/14 01:05 PM
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Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Quote:

After some great advice here, this is what I'm comming up with.

Hughes whiplash cam.
Headman headers 78076. ( I picked these mid length headers since I have power steering and fast ratio arms. Still waithing for a response from them if these fit without modifiction).
Holley SD intake.
Already have 770 carb.

Hopefully wake her up a little.
Anything I am missing




I know that the SD is very popular on this forum, and is often referred to as being "....as good as a dual plane..." For what it is worth, My experience and data suggests that it is not as good as a dual plane. I would classify the SD as: "...for a single plane manifold it does not suck down low...", and not to be confused with "...it is as good as a dual plane."

Even on my 500 in motor, the SD gave up measurable power and torque below 4500 rpm compared to the Indy dual plane and 6 pack intakes.

I personally would go Performer RPM, maybe even a CH4B.

Re: How much to build 440? [Re: BSB67] #1708490
12/14/14 02:00 PM
12/14/14 02:00 PM
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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mopar346 Offline
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Quote:

I personally would go Performer RPM, maybe even a CH4B.






I'm pretty much a dual plane for the street period, kinda guy. The operating range of most if not all single planes are out of the operating range most used/effective on the street and very few are running enough convertor or gear to stand in the sweet spot of a single plane. Not to mention no many have the bottom end to live long take full advantage of a single plane intake. I also think you are still resticting yourself with the carb.


Careful, your character's showing!
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: mopar346] #1708491
12/14/14 03:47 PM
12/14/14 03:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
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Idaho
I wish I had tested the Street Dominator, but unfortunately I forgot it was even on the shelf. Here are comparisons for the RPM dual plane, Torker II single plane, M1 single plane, M1 Single plane and 2" Super Sucker. The M1 was right OOTB and had no plenum modifications so the Super Sucker would transition properly. 440, 8.9:1 XE285HL, 850 Mighty Demon, 2.08/1.74 346 iron heads flowing 280cfm @ .600"

rpm......RPM TQ/HP......TKR II TQ/HP.....M1 TQ/HP.....M1+SS TQ/HP

3100......444/262.........416/246.........423/249.......439/259
3300......478/300.........447/281.........452/284.......467/294
3500......496/330.........481/321.........480/320.......488/325
3700......500/352.........488/344.........487/343.......502/353
4100......482/376.........464/362.........477/373.......487/380
4500......484/415.........489/419.........503/431.......514/441
4900......485/452.........503/469.........504/471.......512/478
5400......485/498.........490/503.........493/507.......505/519
5600......437/456.........463/493.........469/500.......480/511

If you have hood room the M1 and 2" spacer might be the ticket. I think that from 1500-3000rpm you may find that the stock iron 4bbl works best.

Last edited by LaRoy Engines; 12/14/14 03:49 PM.
Re: How much to build 440? [Re: mopar346] #1708492
12/14/14 06:42 PM
12/14/14 06:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
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Dean_Kuzluzski Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I personally would go Performer RPM, maybe even a CH4B.






I'm pretty much a dual plane for the street period, kinda guy. The operating range of most if not all single planes are out of the operating range most used/effective on the street and very few are running enough convertor or gear to stand in the sweet spot of a single plane. Not to mention no many have the bottom end to live long take full advantage of a single plane intake. I also think you are still resticting yourself with the carb.




On the street, what I call "Tip-in throttle response" is king in situations where you want to snap quickly from a light but not draw too much attention to yourself. My experience with single-planes left me without the torque that some vehicle with less high rpm HP had but already got the jump on me. And then we had to shutdown due to the speed limit and visibility of that area we were in.

Now, add a high stall converter, gearing, D.O.T. tires, cam, carb and the rest of the package......game on.


R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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