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Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
#1682230
10/05/14 02:14 PM
10/05/14 02:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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I have a new e-body gas tank here that is back from the Overhaulin' days that I would like to put to use. A 5.7L Hemi is going into my car [with the potential for "light boost" down the road] as well as some autocross and/or road course time. I would like to get away from a external surge tank and keep my fuel control within the "stock" gas tank. For starters, I am looking to pickup a TanksInc fuel pump module with a Walbro 400lp/h pump [$295, they claim up to 900hp, for the extra $60 I'll take the flow potential]. I would also be buying the TanksInc recess mount [10"x7"x2"] to give me some room between the trunk floor and the top of the tank. http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=84/mode=prod/prd84.htmhttp://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/p...prod/prd370.htm  I have an Autometer fuel gauge that has never read right with the stock sending unit. The gauge also oscillates with the sloshing of the fuel, which is annoying. To combat that problem and work with internal baffling, a vertical "no slosh" style sending unit would be used. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-290183/media/instructionsSo I did some very rough dimensioning of the stock tank and guesstimating the other parts to throw together a visual of what I'd like to setup. With the 10"x7" hole in the tank I have a nice amount of room to stick some baffling and an internal surge tank. The box around the fuel pickup shown is 10x8x6 [~2gal]. The 1.5x1.5 squares in the bottom would be filled with flat hinges to help control the direction of the fuel. http://www.mcmaster.com/#1624a61/=u0r6vx My out-of-pocket for this setup would be approx $450 and it should support pretty decent power. I have -6 alum line from the tank to the engine compartment that I would be using already, along with a GM filter/regulator assembly. Thoughts? 
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: ntstlgl1970]
#1682233
10/05/14 03:56 PM
10/05/14 03:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
have you looked at the "drop in" surge boxes from either fuel safe or ATL? they have the features you want without having to engineer your own solution, or if you want to make your own, one of these companys offered one way check valves that that you could put into your surge box.
I have to admit, the option of using an OE fuel pump module is what I ended up going to after dealing with the same external fuel pump/baffled tank/return system issues for a few years and I am really happy with it. The one thing to consider is that if you are going to drive your car a lot, if something goes wrong, you have a really good chance to pick up a new OE fuel pump vs trying to find speed parts in the middle of nowhere - been there done that.
I have looked into the drop-in surge tanks and components, from what I've seen they're pretty pricey for what they are and I will have to modify it to fit the contour of the factory tank as it is. Basic/cheap hinges should be able to perform adequately, perhaps with some light modifications to them [making the "door" have a larger frontal area in one direction or something. I will have to assess that once I get them in-hand.
The OE fuel pump modules do seem like a reasonable option, I haven't looked into sealing one of those to the tank, but I will check it out [any links?].
I agree on reliability of an aftermarket pump being hard to come-by, if I was planning on a long road trip [Power Tour or something], carrying another $160 Walbro wouldn't be too straining to do, but I understand the concern. I do feel I am going in the direction of higher reliability compared to running it externally, which is pretty common to do in these applications, by mounting it internally.
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1682234
10/05/14 04:45 PM
10/05/14 04:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 106
Central IL
Trojmn
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 106
Central IL
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Quote:
carrying another $160 Walbro wouldn't be too straining to do, but I understand the concern.
you'll likely be running a walbro in the oem cansiter anyways... and yes bring along an extra pump anyways. IMO your after the module, if an OEM pump fits the pressure/GPH even better, if not you'll likely replace it with a wally anyways.
I've seen rings somewhere... still looking
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1682235
10/05/14 04:59 PM
10/05/14 04:59 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 553
Sac, CA, USA
ntstlgl1970
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 553
Sac, CA, USA
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I had started modifying another new stock tank after all the problems I had going to MATS. I was going to use a 255 LPH pump with the corvette regulator. On the one way check valve thing, one idea I was going to try was using maybe 4 or 6 thread in (metal) PCV valves I know it sounds weird, but they are a one way metal valve and super cheap. The one way ball valves from fuel safe made me think of this. I also was going to spend some time at the wrecking yard to see what types of flanges could be adaptable to the stock tank. In the end, my wife convinced me to get a bolt in tank from Rick's stainless. They use a metal flange they either buy or make themselves to fit the camaro ss fuel pump module.
rickstanks.com
Call and ask if they will sell the flange seperately. It's worth a shot. The camaro ss pump module is ~175ish or less online, internal regulator and return, one line out, 58 psi.
or maybe a fuel pump module flange from a LX mustang, they make everything for one of those cars.
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: tahoechallenge]
#1682237
10/06/14 03:22 AM
10/06/14 03:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I bought just the trap doors from fuel safe and made my own surge tank.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1682239
10/06/14 08:30 PM
10/06/14 08:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
Have you considered the Aeromotive stealth fuel pump setup for your stock tank?
One of these? No, I have not. If you are referring to the Phantom Aeromotive pumps, I have looked at those. At the moment I am looking into a Gen 5 Camaro fuel pump module.
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: shawge]
#1682241
10/07/14 03:46 AM
10/07/14 03:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
HUSTLESTUFF
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
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Make sure you get the ZL1 camaro pump.
"Were in it to win it. Anything less will end up being..... A whole lot of fun doing!!" UNLAWFL
RIP UN
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: HUSTLESTUFF]
#1682242
10/07/14 09:12 AM
10/07/14 09:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
Make sure you get the ZL1 camaro pump.
That one requires PWM control or external regulation, according to what I have read, which is something that I have somewhat came up with a solution for via a pair of Ford FPDMs.
What is your experience with the ZL1/CTS-V pump?
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: shawge]
#1682243
10/07/14 09:13 AM
10/07/14 09:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
This one?
Perhaps, to me is seems pretty over-priced for fancy aluminum parts that aren't really gaining me much. A little cylindrical foamie around a standard-type pump doesn't seem to be a major benefit to me.
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: HUSTLESTUFF]
#1682245
10/07/14 09:47 AM
10/07/14 09:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Make sure you get the ZL1 camaro pump.
That one requires PWM control or external regulation, according to what I have read, which is something that I have somewhat came up with a solution for via a pair of Ford FPDMs.
What is your experience with the ZL1/CTS-V pump?
Have one in my girlfriends 2014 1LE camaro. SquirrelCat
Gotcha, the PWM is my hurdle with the ZL1 pump. The standard pump can be ran with a 4th gen regulator in it[w/vaporworx adapter]. Either the Ford FPDM or utilizing a Solid-State Relay seems to be what people are using to PWM a fuel pump with the ECU output.
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: ntstlgl1970]
#1682247
10/07/14 11:44 PM
10/07/14 11:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
I think the SS module is good for 550ish horsepower and the ZL1 700 according to the guy I talked to at Ricks. I seem to remember reading someone adapting the PWM pump/control module to a megasquirt controller. I'm thinking along the same lines as you, a 5.7 with a turbo.....so I've been doing similar research
I could pretty easily spend $300-$400 and have a PWM controller talk with the MS3. But I was really looking for a budget way to control it. Currently the Ford setup would be ~$110 or so.
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1682248
10/08/14 03:16 AM
10/08/14 03:16 AM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 553
Sac, CA, USA
ntstlgl1970
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 553
Sac, CA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the SS module is good for 550ish horsepower and the ZL1 700 according to the guy I talked to at Ricks. I seem to remember reading someone adapting the PWM pump/control module to a megasquirt controller. I'm thinking along the same lines as you, a 5.7 with a turbo.....so I've been doing similar research
I could pretty easily spend $300-$400 and have a PWM controller talk with the MS3. But I was really looking for a budget way to control it. Currently the Ford setup would be ~$110 or so.
What I was thinking was have the MS run the ford pwm controller. ford repair data provides the "ranges" that the computer commands to the module and the ms has a generic pwm output that may drive it (this is what I am using to drive the PWM governor solenoid on my 518 trans for example), or it could be driven with the ms gpio via can bus since the GPIO has a wider range of frequencies it can support. From what I have seen (in the ford data), there are 3 commanded frequencies to the FPDM. I'll see if I can find the charts with this data again
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Re: Modifying Stock E-body Tank - EFI + Baffling
[Re: ntstlgl1970]
#1682249
10/19/14 09:33 AM
10/19/14 09:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
What I was thinking was have the MS run the ford pwm controller. ford repair data provides the "ranges" that the computer commands to the module and the ms has a generic pwm output that may drive it (this is what I am using to drive the PWM governor solenoid on my 518 trans for example), or it could be driven with the ms gpio via can bus since the GPIO has a wider range of frequencies it can support. From what I have seen (in the ford data), there are 3 commanded frequenties to the FPDM. I'll see if I can find the charts with this data again
I came across the same information somewhere, its on some 50% scale of some sort. 50% duty cycle supplied to the FPDM is 100% pump power. I read it on a MS forum somewhere along the lines. I also read into Ford guys running dual FPDMs, both in parallel to split the load of the fuel pump between the two. They can overheat, apparently, and crap out.
A the moment the Gen5 stock Camaro pump is what I'm after. There's a decent chance that I will start it out with straight power and not mess with the PWM at first, it should be able to take that just fine with the lighter pressure regulator. For mounting it, I'll be laser-cutting some parts to make my own steel weld-in ring and run it that way, like the VetteWorx...but not stainless of course.
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