440 rebuild
#1668981
09/08/14 03:36 PM
09/08/14 03:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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mopar
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OP
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Posts: 416
Georgia
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I have a 440 out of a 73 New Yorker on the engine stand. Motor looks to be in good shape but needs a rebuild. I have a few questions for you guys in regards to how to rebuild this bad boy. It will be going into the 66 fury, hooked up to the 727 that was in the New Yorker. I will be putting 3.23s in the rear end down the road, but for now it will have the 2.94s. I am looking to make ample amounts of torque to get this big boat moving down the road fairly quickly. Here is the combo I am thinking about.
stealth heads from 440source lunati voodoo 60302 stock cast crank stock rockers and shaft stock distributor rebuild kit from Summit Racing, not sure yet on compression ratio
Would the stock intake and rebuilt thermoquad work well with this setup, or should I go ahead and spend the cash to get the Edelbrock RPM and 750-800 cfm carb.
What would be a good compression ratio to run in this motor? Any suggestions to the combo would be greatly appreciated. This will be my first rebuild. I have a close friend that builds chevy engines frequently that will be helping me assemble.
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: KingTuna]
#1668982
09/08/14 03:39 PM
09/08/14 03:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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Also forgot to ask, would exhaust manifolds work ok with this set up or would heads be needed? If have to use headers, I will use shorties as long tubes in a c body are a royal pain from what I have heard.
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: KingTuna]
#1668983
09/08/14 03:45 PM
09/08/14 03:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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The stealth heads are overkill, but good for upgrades down the road. just order all Summit stuff and roll. T-Chain, re-built kit (hope you don't need a bore, if so get higher compression pistons), the Summit 465-488 cam works good (AMHIK), Used dual palne intake, Holley 750 and headers.. Should pull just fine. Use as many used items as you can(except engine internals) and it should be a cheap build.
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1668984
09/08/14 05:09 PM
09/08/14 05:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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I thought about just keeping the stocks heads on there. They are 346's. If I'm not mistaken, they have the semi-hardened valve seats correct? The motor has 170,000 miles on it, so I'm inclined to think it would be a good idea to rebuild them while they were off.
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: gch]
#1668988
09/08/14 10:22 PM
09/08/14 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Good cam choice. Don't go bigger.
Use the aluminum heads. They won't cost you much more than redoing the 346s.
I hate the heavy stock 440 pistons, but if you are buying a kit try to get the Six Pack pistons, L2355F or something like that. They have a compression distance of 2.05, that will help build compression. DO look at the KB pistons, they have a couple of nice slugs. Everything else you mention is good, if you can afford the Perf RPM that's the one, if not then the CH4B is miles ahead of a Performer, and shouldn't cost an arm and leg. The stock cast iron intake and T-Quad can work too. Put your upfront money INSIDE the engine, intake manifolds and carbs can be upgraded later. At $165 the Firecore distributor is an easy choice.
Find a pair of HP exhaust manifolds and go 2 1/2" back with an H-pipe and my favorite Dynomax Super Turbos, the 17748 or 17749. Why H-pipe? It's less expensive and gets the job done. Nothing wrong with the X, but one can fabricate and install an H in a short time.
I'd keep the 2.94s, it'll be a great cruiser, and FAST on the highway.
R.
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1668990
09/09/14 11:29 AM
09/09/14 11:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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Thank yall for all the input. I'm going to talk to the machine shop sometime this week and see how much they would charge to redo the heads. A friend of mine had a set of 351 modified heads rebuilt by him about a year ago and he charged $500 to rebuild the set. That included putting hardened seats in, but I don't think he had any port work done. I would love to go the stroker route, but 2300 bucks is almost what I hope to build the motor for. I am hoping to keep everything down to around 3000$, or as close as possible. I definitely agree with putting what money I have into the internals. Will look into a set of HP manifolds as well. The New Yorker already had electric ignition on it. Mopar orange box. Definitely will check out that distributor though as I always hear bad things about the orange box.
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: dogdays]
#1668993
09/09/14 04:22 PM
09/09/14 04:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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OP
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The New Yorker has the 5 digit speedometer, and it is at 70,000 right now. Car was not parked until 2004, so I'm just going worst case scenario and thinking its more like 170,000. With the valve covers off though, there is nothing that I have seen that scares me. When I take off one the heads it might be a different story though. Good thing is that the motor is free. A little Marvels and a few days wait and she turned right over. I agree with you on the aluminum heads. I believe that is the best way to go. The combustion chambers on the Stealths are also much better than the stock heads as well, correct? I added up the just the major parts alone and right now I am looking at 2,700 dollars. This is the rebuild kit, edelbrock intake, holley 750, stealth heads, voodoo cam & lifters, double roller timing chain, rocker shafts, rocker arms, pushrods. I'm gonna be very happy when this is done but very broke...
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: dogdays]
#1668998
09/09/14 11:48 PM
09/09/14 11:48 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,149 Central NC
gch
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,149
Central NC
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Quote:
There is very little functional difference between a 750 vacuum secondary Holley and an 800cfm Edelbrock Thunder Series (AVS) carb.
Saying one will work and one won't on a C-body is just wrong.
R.
If you read my post it says "it will run fine".I was merely stating my experience from the stock carb to a 750 holley on a stock 440 with highway gears.I noticed a huge loss in low end.Granted the stock carb was smaller cfm wise and therefore more responsive.
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: gch]
#1668999
09/10/14 01:01 PM
09/10/14 01:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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I was looking at the Holley 4160 for my carb choice. The stock thermoquad is a 800 or so correct?
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: KingTuna]
#1669000
09/10/14 02:01 PM
09/10/14 02:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 43 League City, TX
BlueGhost
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League City, TX
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Another option might be stock type pistons and Edelbrock 72cc E-Street heads.
You would get similar compression to stealth heads and flat top pistons, but take advantage of a more modern combustion chamber.
1958 Plymouth Suburban
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: KingTuna]
#1669002
09/10/14 03:42 PM
09/10/14 03:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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Quick question. Lets hypothetically say that I decide to stay with stock cast iron heads. How much would it affect performance if I didn't port them? Would simply installing biggers valves help with a nice combustion chamber polish? How well do the stock heads flow up to .500 lift? I'm just trying to look at all angles because right now I will be over budget. I still have to swap the spindles and disc brakes from the New Yorker to the Fury, and rebuild the trans.
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: KingTuna]
#1669003
09/10/14 03:47 PM
09/10/14 03:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
The New Yorker has the 5 digit speedometer, and it is at 70,000 right now. Car was not parked until 2004, so I'm just going worst case scenario and thinking its more like 170,000. With the valve covers off though, there is nothing that I have seen that scares me. When I take off one the heads it might be a different story though. Good thing is that the motor is free. A little Marvels and a few days wait and she turned right over. I agree with you on the aluminum heads. I believe that is the best way to go. The combustion chambers on the Stealths are also much better than the stock heads as well, correct? I added up the just the major parts alone and right now I am looking at 2,700 dollars. This is the rebuild kit, edelbrock intake, holley 750, stealth heads, voodoo cam & lifters, double roller timing chain, rocker shafts, rocker arms, pushrods. I'm gonna be very happy when this is done but very broke...
for $2700 you can find a mill already built with better parts. I suggest you look at as many used parts as you can. The only thing new I'd spend money on new is a cam and t-chain set along w/ bearings. You can even find good deals on used .030 pistons. Just my $.02 I bought the engine in this car for $3k of of a moparts member.
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: KingTuna]
#1669004
09/10/14 08:19 PM
09/10/14 08:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 518 Georgia
Steve Bryant
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Georgia
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In regard to the heads, there is an excellent writeup on the gains for porting and back-cuts on the valves. http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/This article tells you all you need to know about the steel heads. You can compare these numbers against the published numbers for the Eddy and Indys. If I remember correctly, the back-cuts on the valves will give you more gains than the Mopar porting templates. I did both on mine and I don't think my engine shop charged me more than a couple-hundred for the extra work.
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: Steve Bryant]
#1669005
09/10/14 09:37 PM
09/10/14 09:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,376
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The problem is that the bigblock heads don't flow any more than the better smallblock heads. Backcutting the valves with no other changes won't do much. Heck, the MP templates don't do that much, still won't get an iron head within the aluminum head out of the box.
Find Steve Dulcich's three-part article on porting B/RB heads. The link in the last post is the first of the three parts in Dulcich's bigblock head trilogy. Be sure to also find and read Fast68's writeup on porting 906s, which is in the Tech archives.
Bottom line for me is that the 40+-year-old iron (they were never steel) heads flow poorly and have a lousy combustion chamber, except for the 915s. Any of them will cost more to port and rebuild than a Stealth or other entry level aluminum head. After they are ported, the iron heads have been known to crack and then all that money is up in smoke. Don't do it.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 09/10/14 09:42 PM.
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: KingTuna]
#1669006
09/11/14 12:18 AM
09/11/14 12:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,650 Harm City Md.
Dan Halen
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Quote:
Quick question. Lets hypothetically say that I decide to stay with stock cast iron heads. How much would it affect performance if I didn't port them? Would simply installing biggers valves help with a nice combustion chamber polish? How well do the stock heads flow up to .500 lift?
Actually, as told to me by a few reputable Super Stock guys, the only reason to install larger valves in a production head, would be to fix a worn out seat. The 2.08 valves generate better velocity since the ports are so poor to begin with. Stock heads flow in the low 200s, they're good truck heads.
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Re: 440 rebuild
[Re: Dan Halen]
#1669007
09/11/14 11:19 AM
09/11/14 11:19 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
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Got ya, now I understand a little better. Well, I guess it's time to start seeing if I can liquidate a few other playtoys to help fund. I wouldnt mind find a used engine for a good price, but as I have never built one myself I would really like to. Stealth heads it is! Quick question about them. I have seen some say you can run them straight out of the box, and I have seen others say to have a machine shop check them and ensure everything has the proper clearances, etc. Any opinions?
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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