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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1668495
09/08/14 03:12 PM
09/08/14 03:12 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Hotchkis 67-72 A body front sway bar: 1.5" hollow
Hotchkis 73-76 A Body front sway bar: 1.25" hollow (with a lower motion ratio on top)
The root of the issue is the motion ratios for the front sway bar mounts on the LCA's between the 67-72 and 73-76 are different (73-76 is lower), and the 73-76 sway bar goes through the K member (limiting diameter and bends).
When Hotchkis first released the 73-76 A Body sway bars, they were listed as 1.5" hollow. I called and spoke with one of the Hotchkis guys, who confirmed it was a 1.5" bar and gave me the listed wheel rates. When it arrived at my house, it was a 1.25" bar. We're talking a significant difference in wheel rate, like 700 lb vs 385 lb wheel rate. When I called to discuss with Hotchkis, I explained the issue with the motion ratio. I was told it was 'good enough', and that's all that would fit through the k member anyway. I was also told that the R&D had been done on the 67-72 K member only. I asked about bending a one off bar in 1.5" diameter hollow or doing something to get a custom bar for the 73-76 at the same wheel rate as the 67-72 chassis, and the answer was a resounding no. Needless to say, I returned it, and called Hellwig to get a custom bar bent. That's why I praise Dave at Hellwig every chance I get for helping me.
Full disclosure: I had to grind on the k member in a couple places to get my current custom Hellwig front bar to go through. A splined bar would be the perfect 'fix' to get room for a larger front sway bar.
Good talking to you on the phone today!
For everyone else- the sway bar had to be reduced to fit through the K frame, on a lot of the cars I do, I end up "upgrading" to the 67-72 bar and welding on all the tabs. It makes for some lower hanging fruit, so it's not as clean as routing through the K but it works if someone feels they need a bit more bar up front.
Custom bars are not something easy for us to do. We have a large machine and make a lot of bars for a lot of folks and the system works on a first come, first serve basis. For an example, if I want to make a bar to try out, it's usually a 2 week to 2 month wait depending on what is going on that month. Not making excuses for what happened, just explaining the process.
All that said, that is why I'm here these days and most tricky Mopar stuff gets sent to me, so that you don't end up taking to a Mustang guy who knows the basics, but not the details.
I gotta get back to these headers on this 74 Duster... 
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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1668496
09/08/14 03:30 PM
09/08/14 03:30 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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Quote:
Good talking to you on the phone today!
For everyone else- the sway bar had to be reduced to fit through the K frame, on a lot of the cars I do, I end up "upgrading" to the 67-72 bar and welding on all the tabs. It makes for some lower hanging fruit, so it's not as clean as routing through the K but it works if someone feels they need a bit more bar up front.
Custom bars are not something easy for us to do. We have a large machine and make a lot of bars for a lot of folks and the system works on a first come, first serve basis. For an example, if I want to make a bar to try out, it's usually a 2 week to 2 month wait depending on what is going on that month. Not making excuses for what happened, just explaining the process.
All that said, that is why I'm here these days and most tricky Mopar stuff gets sent to me, so that you don't end up taking to a Mustang guy who knows the basics, but not the details.
I gotta get back to these headers on this 74 Duster...
Good talking with you as well, Dan. Thanks for taking the time. I do appreciate it.
Sounds like the early bar upgrade might be something to consider. I still need to get the motor swap finished up and get back on the skidpad again.
Can you post a pic of a late k frame with an early A sway bar mounted please?
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1668502
09/10/14 09:20 PM
09/10/14 09:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 757
Toronto, Ont, Canada
boydsdodge
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 757
Toronto, Ont, Canada
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Do a run of Mopar specific rims and see if they sell....
that is a really good idea. We carry wheels for the newer muscle....
This is going on the list 
I like the wheel idea.
Sidenote;
Maybe also look into of making factory stock appearing 'steelies', but made in aluminium in 15 and 17" size.
I'm sure you gain some market from the FAST guys and anyone who likes the stock look of Mopar but is still performance minded. The Ford crowd might like this too as their wheels have a very similar design.
I understand Handling puts a lot of strain on a wheel's design, especially in a lightweight material and liability might be a dealbreaker here, but I'm kinda positive this will be a nice opportunity to put this new item in the market.
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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1668506
09/13/14 01:35 AM
09/13/14 01:35 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 240
Plano, Texas
68cuda440
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 240
Plano, Texas
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But I do agree that the A-body market is huge. 
You would think, but our sales say otherwise. We sell over 5 times as much B&E as we do A body. The bosses are really hard to convince that we should do more for the A's when they look at the numbers. I have to have ammo to take to the bosses so that it makes sense.
I have always preferred the A body Barracuda. B&E cars are too big. It is not a money thing. I just believe the A body was a better thought out design than the E-body platform and I like the way my '68 looks better than the '70-'74 boats. I feel the E was driven more by marketing and my impression was that the design (under the sheet metal) was rushed to market. Not to knock it, I once bought a '70 Challenger and gave it to my brother (he wanted one - guy had a complete non running one in his backyard he wanted $300 for), I wouldn't toss it out with the bath water, I just prefer A bodies.
I just bought a set of A body torsion bars... from someone else obviously. Your A-body UCA is priced much higher than competitor's products with no clear distinction. I called and asked, and was told the only difference was moving the UBJ rearward to increase Caster. Money is not the issue, value and performance are what I am looking for.
Currently I have a welded K frame, 1.12" T-bars, 1-1/8" solid front swaybar ('73-'76 style), '73-'76 spindles, aluminum Dr Diff hubs, Baer 13" two piece rotors, Dr Diff caliper mounts w/ his "Brembo" style calipers, Dr Diff rear brake kit. Rear has 225lb mono leaf rear springs w/ Caltracs. Tires are Falken RT615k. 255/40-18 front, 295/40-18 rear. 18x9 front, 18x10 rear. I have a custom made front radiator support brace; it started out XV, but we had to section it, shorten it, and notch it to fit the car and clear my radiator, so I would not call it the XV brace anymore. The car has sub frame connectors and torque boxes welded in. Rear frame rails are also tied together with 1x2 square tube that makes up the fuel tank mount. Suspension is not complete. I still need to finalize my steering box, the LCAs, and a few other details. Probably go with the Borg box, but need to figure out exhaust as well. I will drive it before I make the rear bar decision. My rear spring rate is high, but the axle is narrowed (springs brought in, thus reducing roll rate). This is mostly a street car, but I would like it to be track capable and a good driving and handling street car. Rear I can go as big as 325/30-19, maybe even 345/30-19. I may go 275/35-18 front w/ the wider 19" rear tire for a street set up, and the existing wheels and tires for track use. With the 295/40-18 I have a lot of room left over. With that much tire in the rear I am curious if the rear bar will be needed. Not that I know much on the subject of suspension design. I have a Masters in Mechanical Engineering and I specialize in dynamic systems and controls. I have dealt mostly with robotics and process control systems in my career, not vehicle suspension design. The car is currently under assembly, so nothing is yet final. I am not married to the 1-1/8" bar, I just happened to buy it for the car 21 years ago (not even sure who made it). How do I figure out the correct bar for the front? How about the rear? On the rear I just about have to go with something custom since my springs are relocated. Based on rates and geometry is it possible to figure out bar sizes without testing? Do I just go to a big 1-1/2" bar or a custom splined front bar, then make a 1" splined bar for the rear with variable mounting positions to tune the rear rate - even so, how do I go about discovering the proper setting or rear rate? Skid pad? Slalom?
On shocks: I have a set of Spax adjustable shocks new in the box that have not yet been installed. I like the idea of the Viking "Beserker" system. I used to work at a research lab that was doing active suspension development, it would be interesting to see where this product line goes. If I decide to go with fixed valve or manually adjustable valved shocks what information is needed to get a set properly configured? Corner weights? Spring rates? Un-sprung component weights? How wide a range are the adjustable shocks? Are they a sort of one size fits all fix that is soft enough or stiff enough that you can just turn the knob until you get the response you want? Do I just toss an accelerometer on the hub and adjust the damping to get something critically damped... tell me the response curve to shoot for and I can manage that part! I'm sure it is not that simple, but maybe I am overthinking it.
Engine in the car is a little 440 waiting on my aluminum heads to ship. Solid cam, EFI six pack tunnel ram, T56 six speed, twin disc clutch, MW aluminum driveshaft. It should put down more than 350rwhp... it was running 90mph in the 1/8th mile with iron heads, an automatic, a carburetor, and two burned plug wires. Car has an aluminum radiator and fiberglass hood. Between the radiator, hood, and heads it may be close to small block weight. Nothing fancy new like the Gen3 Hemi in the "uhcoog1" Duster, so my weight distribution may not be quite so favorable. Need to finish the car and scale it to find out.
-Michael
Michael
1968 Barracuda Notchback Coupe
440 EFI 6-pack, T56 Magnum 6-spd
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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: Rapom65]
#1668508
09/20/14 05:37 PM
09/20/14 05:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
99% of the Mopar guys I know are working stiffs who manage to scratch out a few bucks from the monthly budget to put towards purchasing stuff for their one and only hobby - their A body. Unlike the gold chain and Gucci loafer sporting crowd who's wallet is so thick they have to have an assectomy to sit level who frequent the E body, Chevy and Ford camps. Sorry we are so "cheap". We gravitate to the A body platform because the price for Bs & Es are mostly out of reach thanks to popularity of the "car collector" circus so prevalent now days. The sad fact is that Mopars are the smallest contingent of the "Big 3", by far, so EVERY part is more expensive to purchase making the car far more expensive to build than other makes. I wont spend the limited cash I have on the latest bling part, no matter who makes it, unless it will have a significant impact on the car over a stock item.
What would I squeeze blood out of a rock for? Bearing type sway bar end links although I built my own. Affordable rear rims for my narrowed axle so I can fit modern rubber under the car since tire manufacturers wont make performance 15" rubber. Splined front/rear sway bar kits. The C body spindle ideas kicked around so far have real appeal to me since a front brake upgrade is high on my list of future wants.
I understand the perception , but I think you would be shocked if you knew what I made annually . I know quite a few E-Body owners who are just like us/working stiffs. Besides I say an A-Body should be able to out perform an E-Body anyhow simply due to weight. Sure I agree there are the uber rich people with big/no budgets. They will always be there. Same in circle track racing. The trick is to weed out the hype and BUILD your own stuff. I'd like to see manufactures offer/engineer kits so you could do it your self and save money and they could be safe from liabilities. The Chrysler kit car project was designed for either do it your selfers , or the big budget teams and could be bought in various forms.
The splined sway bar deal is easy and fairly cheap. Lots of used Nascar/circle track take off's to pick from. This is my next suspension project. I bought a couple K-frames to use just for this.
Your right in that there simply are not enough of us ( YET!)interested in making Mopar's handle, but I do see it's growing. Between all the Mopar online forums there is like what....20-30 people into making there cars handle? Non Mopar people have the perception that Mopars are only good in a straight line and it's places like Hotchkiss and their E-Max that are working/helping to change this .
There are lots of people on forums that look but never register or post. On another forum where I posted my C-Body spindle project, there is almost 30,000 views. I've had people from all over the world ask if I would put together a kit. I'm not that interested in doing so, not my area of expertise but someone like Hotchkiss could! Hard part is finding the spindles. I'd love to see them do so!
Things are changing in the handling Mopar world,but slowly. 
Last edited by brads70; 09/20/14 05:47 PM.
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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1668509
09/20/14 07:42 PM
09/20/14 07:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
Tomswheels
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
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Dan wrote: "All that said, that is why I'm here these days and most tricky Mopar stuff gets sent to me, so that you don't end up taking to a Mustang guy who knows the basics, but not the details."
Hey that sounds like a shot at me! How about a Hotchkis/Wilwood reasonably priced 6 piston brake kit for 73+ disc spindles?
Last edited by Tomswheels; 09/20/14 07:45 PM.
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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1668510
09/20/14 07:50 PM
09/20/14 07:50 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Dan wrote: "All that said, that is why I'm here these days and most tricky Mopar stuff gets sent to me, so that you don't end up taking to a Mustang guy who knows the basics, but not the details."
Hey that sounds like a shot at me! How about a Hotchkis/Wilwood reasonably priced 6 piston brake kit for 73+ disc spindles?
Tom, nope it was in reference to a guy that used to work sales at Hotchkis.
Aaaaaannnd... you had the option to be the R&D for that and you wussed out!
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Re: What would you like to see?
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1668511
09/20/14 08:00 PM
09/20/14 08:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
Tomswheels
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
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Quote:
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Dan wrote: "All that said, that is why I'm here these days and most tricky Mopar stuff gets sent to me, so that you don't end up taking to a Mustang guy who knows the basics, but not the details."
Hey that sounds like a shot at me! How about a Hotchkis/Wilwood reasonably priced 6 piston brake kit for 73+ disc spindles?
Tom, nope it was in reference to a guy that used to work sales at Hotchkis.
Aaaaaannnd... you had the option to be the R&D for that and you wussed out!
Well I'm ready now!
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