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Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install #1661310
08/20/14 04:53 AM
08/20/14 04:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
So, in the next couple of weeks I am going to make the leap and start taking the Dart apart so that I can install my TVS, Doctor Diff front brakes, and 8 3/4 rear end. I'd just like your opinions, advice, and parts you think I'll need (I may be forgetting some) so that I can eliminate as much down time as possible. The goal is to get the car running again before October. So here I go...

Chassis and Suspension:
So, as far as chassis and suspension goes, as mentioned earlier, I already have the Hotchkis TVS. I also purchased their subframe connectors and LCA pivot shaft and bushing kit. I was thinking about just installing the UCA, strut rods, and steering rods while holding off on welding the sway bars and subframe connectors till after the car is driving. On the side, I purchased a set of 1.06" T-bars from Firm Feel that should be swapped in at the same time since the LCA have to come out for new bushings. Are there any other parts I'm forgetting that I need to replace to completely rebuild the front suspension?

Brakes:
So for the front brakes, I will be using Dr Diff's 13" rotor kit with the "Brembo-style" calipers. I already have them at home, but what would be the easiest way of assembling that? Should I install the spindle first or put the brakes on the spindle and install the whole sub-assembly with the UCA? Also, does anyone have any recommendations for MC's? The one I have is a 2-bolt 1 1/32", and I'm not sure if that will cut it. And since I have the KH discs and am eliminating the drums, do I need to change out the distribution block? I'm still uncertain at this point.

The rear brakes are almost done. Everything's bolted on, but I just need to figure out how the 11.7" kit with Cobra calipers connects to my stock brake lines. Or, do I need to modify them? Anyone have pictures or help? Cass gave me the the hardware and connections with some instructions, but I'm a visual learner. I have parking brake lines too.

8 3/4 Rear End:
The 8 3/4 has 3.55 gears and an Eaton TrueTrac in it. I just completely assembled it, adjusted for play, and filled it up with oil on Friday. It just needs a break in. I installed a 7290 yoke on it but am unsure at the moment of what the yoke is on my driveshaft. I'm guessing it may be a 1350 and I believe Dr Diff sells a proper U-Joint. I know I'm going to have to get my driveshaft cut but I'll probably get to that when the rear end is back in the car. I'm guessing the shop is going to want the driveshaft measured their way.

Is it possible to install the 8 3/4 at the same time as the leaf springs or should the leaf springs be bolted on beforehand?

Wheels and Tires:
For wheels, I was going to purchase an 18x9-10" set with 275/35/18 tires all the way around. They're going to be two piece wheels so I can set my ideal back spacing/offset. I'm just unsure about the best means of doing so. I'm guessing, bear minimum, I may have to roll my fenders to get everything to fit.

Luckily, I've got a lot of people who want to help me with this car. I've got my uncle (retired body work guy), my friend from the baja club who was helping me 2 years ago, and a couple of my coworkers so I won't be doing some of this alone.

I don't work Friday-Sundays and finish work at 2pm everyday so, luckily, I've got some time to work on this. I know I kind of just threw out a bunch of information at you guys but I appreciate your guys' knowledge and support. Thank you for everything.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661311
08/20/14 10:12 AM
08/20/14 10:12 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
super stock
Uhcoog1  Offline
super stock

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Exciting stuff!

Suspension and chassis:
Have you recently replaced ball joints and pitman/idler arms? And are you using factory LCA's? You could brace the LCA's (AR Engineering kit from firm feel). You could also weld up and brace the k member, if you want to go so far as to take it out (AR engineering kit from firm feel)

Brakes:
I'm not familiar with the piston sizes in those brembo calipers. The cobra calipers are well sized for the rear. I would recommend no distribution block. Just a straight line back. And a t fitting for the front.
Find out front piston sizes and run the math sheet.
Your master may be fine. I run a 15/16 2 bolt I got from dr diff. The 15/16 might be a better size for you. Though If I were you, I would start with the master you have and change if you feel you need it after running.
Rear brakes: I run braided lines to my rear calipers for ease of working on them. Did dr diff send you a set? If not, see if the front braided brake line part number will work (I used same PN braided on all 4).

Wheels:
You're going to have to nail your back spacing if you're going to get 275/35/18's to fit square. I'm unfamiliar with 2 piece wheels- but don't you need new cylinders to change offset? Sounds expensive to swap sets?
What size wheels do you have now? How do they fit?
I run 265/40/18 square on the street (I like the taller tire), and 275/35 fit as well. I'm running +45mm offset in the front(7.2" back spacing), and they rub the frame and the wheel well at about the same time (around 1.25 turn of wheel). I lost turning radius. If you don't go so low, you can run less offset.
The rears are tight as well both inner and outer wheel tubs have tire rub marks from tire rubbing. 60.5" width rear with +45mm offset there as well. Also running dr diff offset leaf spring hangers (would be in leaf springs if not)

Cheap way to find perfect fit is to get a high offset wheel of the size and tire you want, and use spacers until you find the 'perfect' location in the wheel well. Subtract the spacer width from the offset and you're done. Where are you located? I have a 18x9.5 +45 spare laying around.

Hope that helps a bit.


-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661312
08/20/14 10:24 AM
08/20/14 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
RylisPro Offline
top fuel
RylisPro  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
I just did what you are about to do to your car earlier this year. I had a local shop tackle most of the suspension stuff though but here are some suggestions. Mind you I have an Ebody but pretty much using similar parts

Front end Hotchkis:
Get some grade 8 or higher button head bolts for the tie rods because you might need them in case you need clearance at the wheel due to the tie rod bumpsteer spacers. I ended up not using the hotchkis aluminum spacers and was able to get shorter steel spacers at the hardware store. I am using a 10.5" wheel so you might not need this for a narrower combo. I would also get the rubber booties for the rod ends as well.


brakes:
I used an aluminum MC from a dodge truck but I have hydroboost though. The pedal feel is great but I can't heel toe anymore as it grabs way too quick. I just changed my driving style. I still have to swap to Carbotechs

Cass sent me another distribution block to use, I would email him again.

8 3/4:
only thing I did different was get 1350 u joints on both ends.

wheels:
I would get 2 rain wheels and tires with deepest offset and using a variety of aluminum spacers to find the exact offset you need front and rear. You might be surprised that a wider tire might fit! I rolled my fenders too.


Hope that helps!


73 `Cuda
Instagram: @rylispro
YouTube: RylisPro
www.rylispro.com
925-214-9192
Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: RylisPro] #1661313
08/20/14 11:21 AM
08/20/14 11:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
To OP, I also use 1350's, but in all honesty, I think they are overkill for non drag use. I suspect though 1330 alternatives are slim, and 1310 not an upgrade from OEM.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661314
08/20/14 12:39 PM
08/20/14 12:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets Offline
Senior Management
feets  Offline
Senior Management

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
The front and rear suspension installation is a weekend project.
If you were closer I'd swing by and help you knock it out.

The rear brakes lines will require a double flare tool to attach them to the calipers. You will need to find a flexible (rubber or (preferably) braided) line to connect each side to the calipers. That will allow them to move about (they are sliders) without breaking the line.

I've got everything you need to do the install and the shop space to do it.
Bring it on out here and we'll get it done.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: Uhcoog1] #1661315
08/20/14 07:39 PM
08/20/14 07:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
Quote:

Exciting stuff!

Suspension and chassis:
Have you recently replaced ball joints and pitman/idler arms? And are you using factory LCA's? You could brace the LCA's (AR Engineering kit from firm feel). You could also weld up and brace the k member, if you want to go so far as to take it out (AR engineering kit from firm feel)




I haven't rebuilt anything suspension wise that's why I was wondering what else I'd need to replace as my coworker asked me about replacing my LCA ball joints. And yes, I'll be using the factory LCA's. I also have an entire front end assembly (drum-to-drum) with all the suspension components and steering linkages from a '71 Demon if I need to steal parts. It wouldn't be difficult to brace the LCA's when they come out. I just need to make sure one of my friends has a welder handy. As much as I'd like to weld up and brace the k-frame, I think I'm going to hold off on that till I do an engine swap.

Quote:

Brakes:
I'm not familiar with the piston sizes in those brembo calipers. The cobra calipers are well sized for the rear. I would recommend no distribution block. Just a straight line back. And a t fitting for the front.
Find out front piston sizes and run the math sheet.
Your master may be fine. I run a 15/16 2 bolt I got from dr diff. The 15/16 might be a better size for you. Though If I were you, I would start with the master you have and change if you feel you need it after running.
Rear brakes: I run braided lines to my rear calipers for ease of working on them. Did dr diff send you a set? If not, see if the front braided brake line part number will work (I used same PN braided on all 4).




I just went to the garage and measured the pistons with my digital caliper. The reading was kind of iffy because my batteries were dying but all of the pistons were about 36.5mm in diameter (1.43").

I know Dr Diff recommends the 15/16" bore but when I checked on his website a couple days ago, I think he said the MC was out of stock. I don't think I have feets' brake calculator saved to my laptop. I could probably do a quick search for it.

Dr Diff sent me some hoses, brackets, and hardware to install with the lines. I'm just not sure how they go on as it's the first time I've worked with rear discs. I can post pictures of what I have later.

Quote:

Wheels:
You're going to have to nail your back spacing if you're going to get 275/35/18's to fit square. I'm unfamiliar with 2 piece wheels- but don't you need new cylinders to change offset? Sounds expensive to swap sets?
What size wheels do you have now? How do they fit?
I run 265/40/18 square on the street (I like the taller tire), and 275/35 fit as well. I'm running +45mm offset in the front(7.2" back spacing), and they rub the frame and the wheel well at about the same time (around 1.25 turn of wheel). I lost turning radius. If you don't go so low, you can run less offset.
The rears are tight as well both inner and outer wheel tubs have tire rub marks from tire rubbing. 60.5" width rear with +45mm offset there as well. Also running dr diff offset leaf spring hangers (would be in leaf springs if not)

Cheap way to find perfect fit is to get a high offset wheel of the size and tire you want, and use spacers until you find the 'perfect' location in the wheel well. Subtract the spacer width from the offset and you're done. Where are you located? I have a 18x9.5 +45 spare laying around.

Hope that helps a bit.




So, story on the wheels... OzHemi's has a wheel "guy" who supplies him outters. I believe, the same guy also took a set of the centers on OzHemi's Torana and decided to replicate and manufacture a cast set of them. I've seen his ad on CL a couple months ago, but he stated I could get any width between 4-13" (or something) for the 18" wheel, any offset, in any bolt pattern for $1650. So, pretty good deal. If he doesn't have the cast centers anymore, OzHemi also has a supplier for forged centers and I'll just have to bite the bullet and get those. Only problem with going with off the shelf wheels is that I think the rears are going to need less of an offset than the fronts since it's an A-body rear and not a B-body. I just measured and it's ~58.5" rotor-to-rotor.

With regarding to tire size, I know it's doable. If it's going to be that difficult to get a 275/35/18 on there, I can go one step down to 265/35/18 (losing some sidewall) or I can probably try to fit a 255/40/18 which may offer a more comfortable ride.

Now, on my Stealth, I do have some aftermarket wheels on them. They're MSW Type 11's. I don't recall completely but I think they were 17x7's or 17x8's with 5.7 bs (45mm or 38 mm offset). I was using 245/45/17 wheels on that. I could probably tell my mechanic to remove one of them and I could try using one as a mach up; however, I'm not sure if they'll fit on the fronts with the big brakes or center register. If they do fit, I could probably just put some new tires on those and hold off on wheels for awhile.
http://www.ozracing.com/car_wheels_var/MSW/25190/AVANTGARDE/MSW%2011/25536.aspx#

I'm located in Covina, CA 91724.

Thanks for your help.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: RylisPro] #1661316
08/20/14 07:50 PM
08/20/14 07:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
Quote:

I just did what you are about to do to your car earlier this year. I had a local shop tackle most of the suspension stuff though but here are some suggestions. Mind you I have an Ebody but pretty much using similar parts

Front end Hotchkis:
Get some grade 8 or higher button head bolts for the tie rods because you might need them in case you need clearance at the wheel due to the tie rod bumpsteer spacers. I ended up not using the hotchkis aluminum spacers and was able to get shorter steel spacers at the hardware store. I am using a 10.5" wheel so you might not need this for a narrower combo. I would also get the rubber booties for the rod ends as well.


brakes:
I used an aluminum MC from a dodge truck but I have hydroboost though. The pedal feel is great but I can't heel toe anymore as it grabs way too quick. I just changed my driving style. I still have to swap to Carbotechs

Cass sent me another distribution block to use, I would email him again.

8 3/4:
only thing I did different was get 1350 u joints on both ends.

wheels:
I would get 2 rain wheels and tires with deepest offset and using a variety of aluminum spacers to find the exact offset you need front and rear. You might be surprised that a wider tire might fit! I rolled my fenders too.


Hope that helps!





I wish I had a lathe handy because I could probably make my own steel spacers if needed be. As for the rod end boots, I already purchased a set and they came in on Monday.

Was the front disc kit supposed to come with a distribution block? If so, I didn't get one. I was holding off on ordering it till I figured out how it works, but I like uhcoog1's idea for just having a T for the front and a line that goes to the back.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: jcc] #1661317
08/20/14 07:53 PM
08/20/14 07:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
Quote:

To OP, I also use 1350's, but in all honesty, I think they are overkill for non drag use. I suspect though 1330 alternatives are slim, and 1310 not an upgrade from OEM.




I honestly don't know what yoke is on my driveshaft; however, I know for a fact I've got the 7290 on my 8 3/4.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: feets] #1661318
08/20/14 07:57 PM
08/20/14 07:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
Quote:

The front and rear suspension installation is a weekend project.
If you were closer I'd swing by and help you knock it out.

The rear brakes lines will require a double flare tool to attach them to the calipers. You will need to find a flexible (rubber or (preferably) braided) line to connect each side to the calipers. That will allow them to move about (they are sliders) without breaking the line.

I've got everything you need to do the install and the shop space to do it.
Bring it on out here and we'll get it done.




Well, a weekend project for most people is like a 2-4 week project for me.

I've got at least one friend who has the double flare tool that could probably help me out. And the kit came with rubber lines.

I wish I could bring it out but I don't think work would be too happy with me taking a 1 week vacation with the mess that's going on. Plus I don't have a truck and trailer.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661319
08/20/14 07:57 PM
08/20/14 07:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger
OzHemi  Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
With getting the right back spacing...you can also get an idea what you think will work, then just have him heat the outer up and drop the center in without welding it. You can try it out and he can move it around as needed until you get it spot on then they can be together.

When I had the initial set built for the Torana.. I had a center I bolted onto the car and some slightly oversized (ID diameter) outers that I could slide back and forth and got it just where I wanted it.

I have a spare set of wheels here too that I had made with the last of the forged centers, and went with the wider in back and slightly changed the back spacing on too. Just haven't gotten around to the wider tires yet.

If you didn't have wheel studs you could hold a wheel of mine under there...with the 265/35-18's on them. (no studs since mine is 5 on 4 3/4" of course )

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: OzHemi] #1661320
08/20/14 08:03 PM
08/20/14 08:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
Quote:

With getting the right back spacing...you can also get an idea what you think will work, then just have him heat the outer up and drop the center in without welding it. You can try it out and he can move it around as needed until you get it spot on then they can be together.

When I had the initial set built for the Torana.. I had a center I bolted onto the car and some slightly oversized (ID diameter) outers that I could slide back and forth and got it just where I wanted it.

I have a spare set of wheels here too that I had made with the last of the forged centers, and went with the wider in back and slightly changed the back spacing on too. Just haven't gotten around to the wider tires yet.

If you didn't have wheel studs you could hold a wheel of mine under there...with the 265/35-18's on them. (no studs since mine is 5 on 4 3/4" of course )




Is your wheel guy still making the cast wheels?

And as for your wheel, we could just drill/bore a giant hole through the centers to make the mach up work.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661321
08/20/14 08:05 PM
08/20/14 08:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger
OzHemi  Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
As far as I know he is...I can give him a call..


How about we just angle grinder off all your wheel studs? Or convert your car to Chevy bolt pattern to make it easier.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: OzHemi] #1661322
08/20/14 08:08 PM
08/20/14 08:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger
OzHemi  Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
Oh and if you need driveshaft stuff at all... the place around the corner here is awesome.. Powertrain Industries in GG..

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: OzHemi] #1661323
08/20/14 08:28 PM
08/20/14 08:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
Quote:

Oh and if you need driveshaft stuff at all... the place around the corner here is awesome.. Powertrain Industries in GG..




That's who I was planning on using.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661324
08/20/14 11:17 PM
08/20/14 11:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
3
340duster340 Offline
master
340duster340  Offline
master
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
for the rear install, since the housing is all assembled (and heavy), i would mount the front spring hangers first, with springs attached.

roll the housing over the springs and elevate it on jack stands -- way up.

then raise and install rear spring hangers

lower rear on to springs, u-bolt it down.

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: 340duster340] #1661325
08/20/14 11:24 PM
08/20/14 11:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
That sounds a lot easier then from my experience. Are we talking with the center installed, because it is so front heavy, it is awkward to rotate into position and hold while bolting up. I install with the springs and slightly loose U bolts.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: jcc] #1661326
08/21/14 01:06 AM
08/21/14 01:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
These are all good notes!

Some pics from last week. Quick Mach up of what the brakes would look like...


After I assembled my 8 3/4 on Friday...

Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661327
08/21/14 01:55 AM
08/21/14 01:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
master
72Swinger  Offline
master

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
On the wheels I would get 4 fronts and just use thin billet spacers on the rear. The ability to rotate front to back helps a ton on the pocket book.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: Uhcoog1] #1661328
08/21/14 03:13 AM
08/21/14 03:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
MuuMuu101  Offline OP
I got lucky at Woodward!

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
I thought they were rubber last time I looked at them. Looks like their braided lines. Same with the front. Anyways, this is what's left of my Dr Diff kit to put on the rear (minus the parking brake cables). There's an L-bracket in the bag that's supposed to hold the line, I believe, but I'm not sure where that's supposed to bolt. I also have no idea what the other hardware is for.

8247172-unnamed.jpg (156 downloads)
Re: Hotchkis TVS, Brakes, and Rear End Install [Re: MuuMuu101] #1661329
08/21/14 03:29 AM
08/21/14 03:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
RylisPro Offline
top fuel
RylisPro  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal



73 `Cuda
Instagram: @rylispro
YouTube: RylisPro
www.rylispro.com
925-214-9192
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