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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JoesMopar] #1631516
06/23/14 12:31 PM
06/23/14 12:31 PM
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Andrewh Offline
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since some cylinders run leaner than others, did you check at all of them?
was it measured in multiple spots along the head?

was it a dark area? (though that might just affect actual vs read) some IR thermometers require reading on a dark surface not polished aluminum.

not saying this isn't your problem, but not saying it is.
scientific method and all. single data points don't tell you anything.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JoesMopar] #1631517
06/23/14 12:36 PM
06/23/14 12:36 PM
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St. Louis
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Imrare Offline OP
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Tried the paper test, it passed. I'm getting adequate air flow.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Imrare] #1631518
06/23/14 12:38 PM
06/23/14 12:38 PM
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Did you look at the plugs? Are you sure you have good coolant circulation?

If you sit at idle and it starts heating up, will it start dropping back down if you just raise your RPM's or only when you get moving?

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JoesMopar] #1631519
06/23/14 01:01 PM
06/23/14 01:01 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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I would say the hot head is the cracked-repaired one. A restriction or more cracks. Ever lost water from radiator or build alot of pressure?

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: cudaman1969] #1631520
06/23/14 01:55 PM
06/23/14 01:55 PM
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Imrare Offline OP
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Never have lost coolant from the cracks...yet.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Imrare] #1631521
06/23/14 05:47 PM
06/23/14 05:47 PM
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Easy enough , and not super expensive to figure out , get another pair of heads , or at least replace one... BUT I'm pee in the punch, thin cylinders on that bank COULd be putting more heat in the coolant on that side and causing it to run hotter , or the coolant is somehow being restricted.

One way to figure out if it is the head that is causing it , swapp the heads side to side and see if the heat moves. I'll supply the head gaskets if your're up for the challenge. If you lived closer to NH I'd do the work.

This is getting interesting.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JohnRR] #1631522
06/23/14 08:47 PM
06/23/14 08:47 PM
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Imrare Offline OP
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Quote:

Easy enough , and not super expensive to figure out , get another pair of heads , or at least replace one... BUT I'm pee in the punch, thin cylinders on that bank COULd be putting more heat in the coolant on that side and causing it to run hotter , or the coolant is somehow being restricted.

One way to figure out if it is the head that is causing it , swapp the heads side to side and see if the heat moves. I'll supply the head gaskets if your're up for the challenge. If you lived closer to NH I'd do the work.

This is getting interesting.




JohnRR, that is an excellent idea...that is exactly what I will do. Obviously if the heat moves to the Passenger side, we've found it, if the Driver's side remains hot, more than likely a "block problem". Since the engine compartment is "all detailed" up, I am going to wait until after the Mopar Nationals (August) to do this. I should be able to remove the heads in one weekend and re-assemble it the next (okay I'm slow). The shop that rebuilt the engine wants me to try a new Carb before I do anything else, he doesn't think it is the head. I told him I would try a new carb but that I thought it was unlikely that an improper fuel mixture would only affect one side of the engine. Do you agree?

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Imrare] #1631523
06/23/14 09:14 PM
06/23/14 09:14 PM
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JoesMopar Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Easy enough , and not super expensive to figure out , get another pair of heads , or at least replace one... BUT I'm pee in the punch, thin cylinders on that bank COULd be putting more heat in the coolant on that side and causing it to run hotter , or the coolant is somehow being restricted.

One way to figure out if it is the head that is causing it , swapp the heads side to side and see if the heat moves. I'll supply the head gaskets if your're up for the challenge. If you lived closer to NH I'd do the work.

This is getting interesting.




JohnRR, that is an excellent idea...that is exactly what I will do. Obviously if the heat moves to the Passenger side, we've found it, if the Driver's side remains hot, more than likely a "block problem". Since the engine compartment is "all detailed" up, I am going to wait until after the Mopar Nationals (August) to do this. I should be able to remove the heads in one weekend and re-assemble it the next (okay I'm slow). The shop that rebuilt the engine wants me to try a new Carb before I do anything else, he doesn't think it is the head. I told him I would try a new carb but that I thought it was unlikely that an improper fuel mixture would only affect one side of the engine. Do you agree?




You've got to be kidding me...I think JohnRR is being facetious...

As far as improper fuel mixture..I don't know, unless you have one side of the idle mixture screws really leaned out over the other...and even then I don't know if that's possible. Your car would be running off the idle circuit when this is happening so I guess it's of interest. You can set it pretty easy with a vacuum gauge.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JoesMopar] #1631524
06/23/14 09:36 PM
06/23/14 09:36 PM
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St. Louis
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Imrare Offline OP
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I'm not kidding. Moving the head to the other side for analysis is not only sensible, it is also less expensive than buying a new head, just in case the block turns out to be the issue.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Imrare] #1631525
06/23/14 10:25 PM
06/23/14 10:25 PM
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New Jersey, USA
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yella71 Offline
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Its not core shift or tune up or any of that stuff. the engine is assembled with something wrong. pull the heads and check the gaskets and the water pump. I think they put the head gaskets on wrong. core shift my a$$


71 challenger convertable, 64 sport fury 383 ci with factory air 99 sebring convertable 89 CTD pup
Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Imrare] #1631526
06/24/14 12:47 AM
06/24/14 12:47 AM
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Please post back with what you find from swapping the heads to each side.

Didn't I see a pic in another thread where you already had the heads off? What came of that?

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JoesMopar] #1631527
06/24/14 11:29 AM
06/24/14 11:29 AM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Easy enough , and not super expensive to figure out , get another pair of heads , or at least replace one... BUT I'm pee in the punch, thin cylinders on that bank COULd be putting more heat in the coolant on that side and causing it to run hotter , or the coolant is somehow being restricted.

One way to figure out if it is the head that is causing it , swapp the heads side to side and see if the heat moves. I'll supply the head gaskets if your're up for the challenge. If you lived closer to NH I'd do the work.

This is getting interesting.




JohnRR, that is an excellent idea...that is exactly what I will do. Obviously if the heat moves to the Passenger side, we've found it, if the Driver's side remains hot, more than likely a "block problem". Since the engine compartment is "all detailed" up, I am going to wait until after the Mopar Nationals (August) to do this. I should be able to remove the heads in one weekend and re-assemble it the next (okay I'm slow). The shop that rebuilt the engine wants me to try a new Carb before I do anything else, he doesn't think it is the head. I told him I would try a new carb but that I thought it was unlikely that an improper fuel mixture would only affect one side of the engine. Do you agree?




You've got to be kidding me...I think JohnRR is being facetious...

As far as improper fuel mixture..I don't know, unless you have one side of the idle mixture screws really leaned out over the other...and even then I don't know if that's possible. Your car would be running off the idle circuit when this is happening so I guess it's of interest. You can set it pretty easy with a vacuum gauge.




No I'm completely serious.

But trying a carb is not a bad idea , though 2 cylinders on each bank are fed by half the carb... BUT the distribution of that stock intake leaves a lot to be desired.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Challenger 1] #1631528
06/24/14 11:47 AM
06/24/14 11:47 AM
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Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I would have thought that engines produced in the late 60's that were subject to a "core shift" would have been disposed of long ago by attrition or warrantee claims. I'm finding that some of these may have survived.

Has anyone experienced Core Shift in an engine block (383, 440, etc.) that did not become a problem until years later when the block received its first 30 overbore? By problem I mean overheating or cracked cylinder wall.




Has anyone really found "core shift" to be responsible for over heating?




So no clear answers so far, while we are chasing ou tails.

IMO, a thin cylinder wall would not "add" any heat to the overall system that was not already there. It would more likely make one cyl cooler and cause that tuning problem. Cyl walls do not create heat other by friction, by being thin they may only rob heat from the combustion cycle/exhaust.

Now if the concern is core shift is so great that water flow is blocked or disrupted to an extent that water flow is seriously compromised, seems like a different path to determine is needed then the current direction.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JohnRR] #1631529
06/24/14 11:56 AM
06/24/14 11:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Easy enough , and not super expensive to figure out , get another pair of heads , or at least replace one... BUT I'm pee in the punch, thin cylinders on that bank COULd be putting more heat in the coolant on that side and causing it to run hotter , or the coolant is somehow being restricted.

One way to figure out if it is the head that is causing it , swapp the heads side to side and see if the heat moves. I'll supply the head gaskets if your're up for the challenge. If you lived closer to NH I'd do the work.

This is getting interesting.




JohnRR, that is an excellent idea...that is exactly what I will do. Obviously if the heat moves to the Passenger side, we've found it, if the Driver's side remains hot, more than likely a "block problem". Since the engine compartment is "all detailed" up, I am going to wait until after the Mopar Nationals (August) to do this. I should be able to remove the heads in one weekend and re-assemble it the next (okay I'm slow). The shop that rebuilt the engine wants me to try a new Carb before I do anything else, he doesn't think it is the head. I told him I would try a new carb but that I thought it was unlikely that an improper fuel mixture would only affect one side of the engine. Do you agree?




You've got to be kidding me...I think JohnRR is being facetious...

As far as improper fuel mixture..I don't know, unless you have one side of the idle mixture screws really leaned out over the other...and even then I don't know if that's possible. Your car would be running off the idle circuit when this is happening so I guess it's of interest. You can set it pretty easy with a vacuum gauge.




No I'm completely serious.

But trying a carb is not a bad idea , though 2 cylinders on each bank are fed by half the carb... BUT the distribution of that stock intake leaves a lot to be desired.




For the record, I betting it's not the heads and not the block, no matter how thin the sleeves are.

The engine builder knows the engine and the person using it and what it's used for. I can't believe how no one wants to hear what he has said or suggested.

You would think jetting up is easier than swapping heads just to see if the engine builder has a clue??

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Challenger 1] #1631530
06/24/14 01:31 PM
06/24/14 01:31 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:



You would think jetting up is easier than swapping heads just to see if the engine builder has a clue??




Somewhere along the line in these many threads the carb change has been suggested , a few times , but the OP is STUCK ON FACTORY STOCK and poo poo'd a carb change , or the carb , being the problem.


Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JohnRR] #1631531
06/24/14 01:44 PM
06/24/14 01:44 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:

Quote:



You would think jetting up is easier than swapping heads just to see if the engine builder has a clue??




Somewhere along the line in these many threads the carb change has been suggested , a few times , but the OP is STUCK ON FACTORY STOCK and poo poo'd a carb change , or the carb , being the problem.






I'm pretty sure carburetors are more mysterious today than fuel injection was us 30 years ago.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: JohnRR] #1631532
06/24/14 01:50 PM
06/24/14 01:50 PM
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Columbia, CT
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I think the head swap is a good exercise. It's not invasive and can be done much quicker than two days unless you're only working a few hours each day on it.
In terms of core shift - it exists in almost everything. heads, intakes, blocks, water pump housings... It doesn;t make somrething fatal but I've failed blocks because one entire side was shifted away from the major thrust making the pin axis the thickes dimension... The other side was fine. Also - a bearing issue can cause too much heat - especailly something like bearings not chamfered enough for some of the stroker cranks. Rings can cause exces heat in the oil and the iron. I'd think subsequent rebuilds and refreshens would have addressed all of those.
I'll also throw this out... I had a Dart with a big block that ran great. I did a cam swap and it began to have an overheating problem. Enough that I traded it after getting frustrated with it. It took the new owner about an hour to find it. A field mouse had gotten into the lower radiator tank during the cam swap (inside my shop). It did not escape before the radiator was reinstalled. That would intermittently plug the water outlet from the rad, causing the car to overheat after some miles of driving.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: moper] #1631533
06/24/14 03:27 PM
06/24/14 03:27 PM
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St. Louis
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Imrare Offline OP
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I'm listening to everyone. I am going to try a carb change before changing the heads but I'm skeptical that just because Auto Zone says I need an XY carb, is it really manufactured to 1969 specs? It could be a problem too.

The rebuilder did richen up the carb after running it on the test stand...by rejetting and new metering rods...don't know anymore than that about the carb other than it is a Carter 4711S.

Point is, the engine cooling performance is EXACTLY as it was before the extensive machine work, balance, blueprinting, and rebuild. The only removable engine parts that are the same (other than the block) are the heads, carb, and water pump housing and I've already verified the performance of the water pump and housing on the engine stand. That leaves the Carb, Heads, and Block.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: Imrare] #1631534
06/24/14 06:07 PM
06/24/14 06:07 PM
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Florida
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Ockham's Razor:
It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

Simply put, the most obvious answer is usually right.

Curious how this turns out.

Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift???? [Re: BDW] #1631535
06/24/14 09:24 PM
06/24/14 09:24 PM
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Posts: 291
St. Louis
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Imrare Offline OP
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Obvious answer?

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