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Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
#1630122
06/07/14 09:09 PM
06/07/14 09:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Hey guys,
I am running an SB mopar. Last year I had a solid flat tappet cam, .002 on the rods, .003 on the mains, a remote filter with 7qts of oil, and a high volume oil pump. The block has a half fill, and on the street when the oil got to about 240 degrees (when I would shut it down) idle oil pressure was about 15 psi. I was running Brad Penn 10W40 oil.
This year I have switched to Indy 360-2 heads, a crower solid roller with MRL roller lifters that have pressure fed oiling to the needles, T&D shaft rockers with oil sprayers for the valve springs, and a standard volume pump with a high pressure spring, no more remote filter, 6 quarts total in the engine and pan (kevko). I noticed when I put oil into the motor that a TON sits up top in the heads- when I pull the valve covers off, there is so much oil sitting up top that some actually runs over the valve cover rail onto the outside of the heads. The oil I used was Mobil 15W50.
My oil pressure at idle, hot, gets to about 10 psi...today, it got to just around 8!...Cruising around 40 mph, I get 20 psi! I changed the oil to the 10W40 Brad Penn I used to use- no change. I tried adding another quart of oil to see if maybe the pump is cavitating and there is not enough oil in the pan with these heads, and it did not help the issue. Tomorrow, I was planning on installing restrictors into the shaft pedestal in the head that feeds the rocker shafts- was going to insert a set screw with a .050" hole to see if it helps the issue as per a recommendation from Todd at Competition Wedge and hopefully it helps the issue.
At this point, I am stumped as to why this is happening, and am looking for any suggestions or experiences people have had particularly with the Indy heads and solid roller lifters with pressure fed oiling- these are the only two things I changed this year, and now I am having this issue. All the other oil plugs are installed correctly, that I know for sure. I still cannot get over how much oil sits up top in these heads.
Thanks!
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630123
06/07/14 10:46 PM
06/07/14 10:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Your gonna need a high volume pump.. you have some extra man made leaks.. I had to do the same thing.. on the oil in the heads.. once you run the engine that oil is up there.. check the level after you run it a few minutes and if needed top it of 
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630124
06/08/14 01:16 AM
06/08/14 01:16 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Your gonna need a high volume pump.. you have some
extra man made leaks.. I had to do the same thing..
on the oil in the heads.. once you run the engine that
oil is up there.. check the level after you run it a
few minutes and if needed top it of
Mike, I am not sure a high volume pump would help, and hear me out as to why- my understanding, if I install an HV pump, that means that oil will pump up to the top of the engine even faster, or at a greater volume! Which means I would get the oil up there sooner, which is not my goal lol..unless my thinking is off?
Also, I added an entire extra bottle of oil OVER what I poured the pan to (5 quarts in the pan, 6 in the filter and the rest of the engine..I added 7 quarts after) and it still did not help the issue at all.
Did you have the same problem with oil pressure in your motor Mike?
I would like to try the restrictors tomorrow if I have the time, would really like to see if they will help or not
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630125
06/08/14 02:10 AM
06/08/14 02:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616
Kissimmee Fl.
dusturbd340W5
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616
Kissimmee Fl.
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if your cam has the #2 and #4 journal grooved for full time oil then you would need to restrict the oil going to rockers that have needle bearings if not you will be dumping huge amounts of oil up top really fast.
I ran Harland Sharps with full time oil to the rockers and had to restrict the oil going to them.
70 duster full chassis super pro 416 CNC Indybrock heads 727 w/brake
best so far 1.212 60 6.219 in 1/8 at 110.88 9.768 at 137.81 1/4
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: dusturbd340W5]
#1630126
06/08/14 08:59 AM
06/08/14 08:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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You have and have always had slightly worn out lifter bores. I would bet that your MRL lifters are slightly smaller in diameter than the ones they replaced. It is amazing at what one thou x 16 will do. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630128
06/08/14 09:21 AM
06/08/14 09:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,804
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,804
Portage,michigan
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Maybe thrust bearing with to much clearance. My old motor had your symptoms and that was the cause. Torque convertor the culprit .
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam, footbrake street/strip car
1.41 best 60 foot
6.54 @ 105.20
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630129
06/08/14 10:46 AM
06/08/14 10:46 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Your gonna need a high volume pump.. you have some
extra man made leaks.. I had to do the same thing..
on the oil in the heads.. once you run the engine that
oil is up there.. check the level after you run it a
few minutes and if needed top it of
Mike, I am not sure a high volume pump would help, and hear me out as to why- my understanding, if I install an HV pump, that means that oil will pump up to the top of the engine even faster, or at a greater volume! Which means I would get the oil up there sooner, which is not my goal lol..unless my thinking is off?
Also, I added an entire extra bottle of oil OVER what I poured the pan to (5 quarts in the pan, 6 in the filter and the rest of the engine..I added 7 quarts after) and it still did not help the issue at all.
Did you have the same problem with oil pressure in your motor Mike?
I would like to try the restrictors tomorrow if I have the time, would really like to see if they will help or not
Yes I had a low pressure issue on my 416 and the HV
pump took care of it... pressure is a by product of
flow vs restriction... if you dont have enough restriction
you will have low pressure.. increase flow with the
same restriction and the pressure goes up... sure
you can spend lots of money fixing the restrictions
or just put a HV pump on.. I know where my oil is
going and I didnt feel like spending another $700
to reduce the oil.... your gonna have that amount
of oil in the heads unless there is some fix but since
I dont run those heads I cant say what the fix could
be
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630131
06/08/14 01:14 PM
06/08/14 01:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
sshemi
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630132
06/08/14 01:30 PM
06/08/14 01:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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What pressure did you have when you primed the system.. I'm betting it was about 60 psi and you had 70 on your last engine... I had about 65 psi when priming.. it didnt hit the by pass pressure to open that valve... also what are you using for a timing gear set up.. does it have the chain tensioner... I'm wondering if it is covering the drivers side lifter passage at the front completely.. I had one that didnt and had to pull the engine out to find out where my low pressure was coming from and that was it(different engine from now)
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630134
06/08/14 02:04 PM
06/08/14 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
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These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Bad340fish]
#1630135
06/08/14 02:22 PM
06/08/14 02:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
LSP
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Yes, good call, look at this too. I forgot how large the oil holes in unbushed OE SBM lifter bores are.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Bad340fish]
#1630136
06/08/14 02:26 PM
06/08/14 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Yes roller lifters... and mine has bushed bores.. one
of my mistakes was not listening to the guys that
did the machine work on the block.. they suggested
running a .040 hole in the bushings but I said I
wanted .060 and they did the .060... my reasoning
was I needed a bit more oil flow because I was running
the EDM hole lifters and PR oiling to the rockers..
the EDM hole was a lot bigger than I understood it
to be.. they are .026 and the lifter bores are a
bit larger than I would have done by 1/2 thou larger
so with the bigger bores and the bigger hole it adds
up to a bigger loss
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Bad340fish]
#1630137
06/08/14 02:39 PM
06/08/14 02:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 13,232
aZLiViN
J_BODY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 13,232
aZLiViN
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Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Believe the lifters MRL offers are similar to the ones Brian at IMM had made up and that was to keep that oil hole in the bore...
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: J_BODY]
#1630138
06/08/14 02:42 PM
06/08/14 02:42 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Believe the lifters MRL offers are similar to the ones Brian at IMM had made up and that was to keep that oil hole in the bore...
I believe they are also.. with the EDM hole
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630139
06/08/14 02:44 PM
06/08/14 02:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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I chose to run the standard volume pump as that is what I ran in the past with the kevko pan (with a high pressure spring) and oil pressure was never an issue (25psi hot at idle). Last year I went to the HV pump with the stroker and having a remote filter I wanted to make sure the oil going outside of the block was pumped properly. This year I removed the remote filter setup, again just running the kevko pan (6 qts total in the engine and filter this year) and though I should just run the standard volume pump so that I don't suck the Kevko dry. I was going to go to a Milodon pan, but I felt the kevko had a superior design inside the pan and if it would work, why not? I am wondering if oil capacity is my problem, but then again, I added a quart yesterday and it did not do a thing to help. The roller lifters I am using are the MRL pro plus solid roller lifters, as seen here. http://www.mrlperformance.com/At full lift I know the oil band is not being uncovered, but I cannot recall whether or not they are uncovered on base circle...if that was the case, can I get a cam ground to push the lifters up somewhat? These were the only lifters that would be a direct drop in to my factory roller block without grinding on the block (downside is heads have to come off to remove them). When I primed the motor, I had 60 psi...On cold startup, I have 60 psi also...I don't run a timing chain tensioner, but I do run a Cloyes True roller 9 keyway timing set. What I don't understand is how the car starts with good pressure, but it just keeps dropping. I bought that second set screw, I am going to drill it and install it either later tonight or tomorrow , but I doubt it will do much. At this point, if the lifters are not being uncovered in the bores, I am not sure what else to try. 
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: J_BODY]
#1630140
06/08/14 02:44 PM
06/08/14 02:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
1Fast340
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
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Quote:
Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Believe the lifters MRL offers are similar to the ones Brian at IMM had made up and that was to keep that oil hole in the bore...
dont forget that the block is still an ancient piece of junkmachining from mother mopar that can and will trow a stick into anyones wheel at anytime. always have to check everything.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: J_BODY]
#1630141
06/08/14 02:46 PM
06/08/14 02:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Believe the lifters MRL offers are similar to the ones Brian at IMM had made up and that was to keep that oil hole in the bore...
I am not sure how similar they are in design to Brians. Mike assured me they would work fine, and turning the motor over I remember checking for uncovering the oil hole at max lift (can't recall on base circle, hopefully pulling the distributor and an inspection light might help there) and there was no issue.
At this point, if the holes are not uncovered, and the second restrictor does not help, short of changing to an HV pump, I am not sure what the hell else to do
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630142
06/08/14 03:23 PM
06/08/14 03:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Believe the lifters MRL offers are similar to the ones Brian at IMM had made up and that was to keep that oil hole in the bore...
I am not sure how similar they are in design to Brians. Mike assured me they would work fine, and turning the motor over I remember checking for uncovering the oil hole at max lift (can't recall on base circle, hopefully pulling the distributor and an inspection light might help there) and there was no issue.
At this point, if the holes are not uncovered, and the second restrictor does not help, short of changing to an HV pump, I am not sure what the hell else to do
Being that you installed one restrictor and it did
squat I really doubt that the other one will help
any... being that you dont have a bushed block you
have very little else to do except put a HV pump on
it.. otherwise your gonna be pulling the engine and
spending some bucks to correct all the leaks that
add up for the losses
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630143
06/08/14 03:32 PM
06/08/14 03:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
These are roller lifters right? Did you make sure it wasn't uncovering the oil hole at full lift?
Believe the lifters MRL offers are similar to the ones Brian at IMM had made up and that was to keep that oil hole in the bore...
I am not sure how similar they are in design to Brians. Mike assured me they would work fine, and turning the motor over I remember checking for uncovering the oil hole at max lift (can't recall on base circle, hopefully pulling the distributor and an inspection light might help there) and there was no issue.
At this point, if the holes are not uncovered, and the second restrictor does not help, short of changing to an HV pump, I am not sure what the hell else to do
Being that you installed one restrictor and it did
squat I really doubt that the other one will help
any... being that you dont have a bushed block you
have very little else to do except put a HV pump on
it.. otherwise your gonna be pulling the engine and
spending some bucks to correct all the leaks that
add up for the losses
Your probably right, but its worth a shot still right?
If the leaks you are referring to are the lifter bores, I just find it strange that all of a sudden they show up as a problem now. I have ran hydraulic roller lifters and solid flat tappet lifters, and experienced no pressure issues at all with either...All of a sudden with these I do? Could it be because of the pressure fed oiling in these roller lifters?
I have no problem throwing my HV pump on as I still have it, sitting and ready to go. What concerns me though is sucking this kevko pan dry- with only 5 quarts in the sump and another in the filter and the rest of the block, considering how much oil these heads hold, I am somewhat scared to try it.
Wonder if I should just go to the Milodon pan like I had planned to before even though the Kevko is a nicer pan internally.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630145
06/08/14 03:41 PM
06/08/14 03:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Your probably right, but its worth a shot still right? If the leaks you are referring to are the lifter bores, I just find it strange that all of a sudden they show up as a problem now. I have ran hydraulic roller lifters and solid flat tappet lifters, and experienced no pressure issues at all with either...All of a sudden with these I do? Could it be because of the pressure fed oiling in these roller lifters? I have no problem throwing my HV pump on as I still have it, sitting and ready to go. What concerns me though is sucking this kevko pan dry- with only 5 quarts in the sump and another in the filter and the rest of the block, considering how much oil these heads hold, I am somewhat scared to try it. Wonder if I should just go to the Milodon pan like I had planned to before even though the Kevko is a nicer pan internally.
I think a lot of the loss is the EDM hole feeding the
roller.. it was a lot larger than I was told.. its
.026 and I had heard it was .013.. with the added
leak in the lifter there is less restriction and it
moves more oil.... as too the amount of oil in the
head that a totally different problem(not evenly
related to the low pressure).. with the HV pump you
will have more oil in suspension in the engine.. I
dont ever run a stock volume pan on any race engine
due to the small volume it holds
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630146
06/08/14 03:45 PM
06/08/14 03:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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Yes and HV pump will increase pressure by function of volume. You have that correct. Pull your distributor and prime it while watching the lifter bores--you will see the hemorraghing there. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: RAMM]
#1630147
06/08/14 04:07 PM
06/08/14 04:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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Just a suggestion but why don't you try a straight 40 or 50 weight oil to see what happens.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630149
06/08/14 08:48 PM
06/08/14 08:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I would rather not run straight weight oil in my motor to be honest.
Will the HV pump correct the problem enough?
What puzzles me is this- the pressure drops, then it drops some more, and more, and more, until I shut it off. If I am getting down to 8 lbs of hot idle oil pressure, will an HV pump be enough to correct the problem? Do I need a smaller restrictor in the heads also? Do I need to now bush these lifter bores for the first time ever with this block?
I am so confused about what I should do first right now as I feel like everything will be a shot in the dark
If I were you I would change the pump first and add
your other restrictor and hope thats enough.. thats
not gonna cost anything but time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630151
06/08/14 09:05 PM
06/08/14 09:05 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
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Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
I would rather not run straight weight oil in my motor to be honest.
Will the HV pump correct the problem enough?
What puzzles me is this- the pressure drops, then it drops some more, and more, and more, until I shut it off. If I am getting down to 8 lbs of hot idle oil pressure, will an HV pump be enough to correct the problem? Do I need a smaller restrictor in the heads also? Do I need to now bush these lifter bores for the first time ever with this block?
I am so confused about what I should do first right now as I feel like everything will be a shot in the dark
If I were you I would change the pump first and add
your other restrictor and hope thats enough.. thats
not gonna cost anything but time
That is the plan at this point- add the other restrictor, put in the HV pump, cross my fingers that it does the job
Otherwise the engine is coming apart to bush the lifter bores.
To get the oil pressure up from 8lbs hot to atleast 20 pounds is going to be a tough feat to accomplish I think...but at this point all I can do is try
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1630152
06/08/14 09:07 PM
06/08/14 09:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
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Toronto
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Quote:
I wonder what effect that concrete filled block is having on this issue. Probably going to end up installing a very big oil cooler to get by with street driving miles. 
None actually...I drove my filled block on the street all year last year.
My oil temps are only at about 210 when the oil pressure is dropping to 8 lbs at idle...Last year my oil temps would hit 240 and I would get 15lbs hot idling oil pressure, so right now I am not even touching the higher end of the temps I saw with the filled block...which is why if it is this bad the lower temps, it would be 0 at the higher ones.
Pan is coming off (possibly even replaced with the milodon) and then installing the HV pump to see what happens
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630153
06/09/14 09:24 AM
06/09/14 09:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
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Before you change the pump pull the intake and run the pump on a drill. Look at the lifters and see how much oil is coming past them. If you slowly turn it over while doing this you really see if the lifters are uncovering any oil holes.
There is way to much variables in the casting of the blocks to be able to say for sure that a roller lifter will work without mods. I hate to say it but I bet that is where your problem is.
I run my roller motor with no oiling to the lifters(tubed block) and its worked fine. I have over 5000 miles on this current set of lifters with just the drainback oiling them. I am pulling them out soon to get them looked at but I don't anticipate any problems.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Bad340fish]
#1630154
06/09/14 10:48 AM
06/09/14 10:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,547
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,547
Syracuse,NY
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Quote:
Before you change the pump pull the intake and run the pump on a drill. Look at the lifters and see how much oil is coming past them. If you slowly turn it over while doing this you really see if the lifters are uncovering any oil holes.
I hate to say it but I bet that is where your problem is.
 Once he tested the restrictor theory, it pretty much all leads in this direction.
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1630155
06/09/14 10:51 PM
06/09/14 10:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
Before you change the pump pull the intake and run the pump on a drill. Look at the lifters and see how much oil is coming past them. If you slowly turn it over while doing this you really see if the lifters are uncovering any oil holes.
I hate to say it but I bet that is where your problem is.
Once he tested the restrictor theory, it pretty much all leads in this direction.
Yup, Todd pretty much said it- if the restrictors didn't do it, its the lifter bores.
I have 2 options- try the HV pump and hope it helps (although getting the pressure up 12 numbers from 8 to 20 is imo going to be a tough feat for just a pump change) or the block will need the lifter galleries tubed.
I just dropped the pan, removed the standard volume pump, installed the high pressure spring into the HV pump (at this point, I need all the pressure I can get, even if it is only when the bypass opens), and reinstalled it on to the block. Tomorrow when I get home from work I am going to reinstall the pan, install a restrictor on the other head, fill it up with oil, cross my fingers and fire it up.
If the problem is still there, there is a good chance I am sitting the rest of the season out...
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630156
06/09/14 11:22 PM
06/09/14 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Yup, Todd pretty much said it- if the restrictors didn't do it, its the lifter bores. I have 2 options- try the HV pump and hope it helps (although getting the pressure up 12 numbers from 8 to 20 is imo going to be a tough feat for just a pump change) or the block will need the lifter galleries tubed. I just dropped the pan, removed the standard volume pump, installed the high pressure spring into the HV pump (at this point, I need all the pressure I can get, even if it is only when the bypass opens), and reinstalled it on to the block. Tomorrow when I get home from work I am going to reinstall the pan, install a restrictor on the other head, fill it up with oil, cross my fingers and fire it up. If the problem is still there, there is a good chance I am sitting the rest of the season out...
I thought you said you checked that(uncovering the
lifter bores)
EDIT
I bet your gonna need heavier weight oil also.. the
HV pump is only 25% more volume
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 06/09/14 11:43 PM.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630157
06/09/14 11:31 PM
06/09/14 11:31 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Yup, Todd pretty much said it- if the restrictors didn't do it, its the lifter bores.
I have 2 options- try the HV pump and hope it helps (although getting the pressure up 12 numbers from 8 to 20 is imo going to be a tough feat for just a pump change) or the block will need the lifter galleries tubed.
I just dropped the pan, removed the standard volume pump, installed the high pressure spring into the HV pump (at this point, I need all the pressure I can get, even if it is only when the bypass opens), and reinstalled it on to the block. Tomorrow when I get home from work I am going to reinstall the pan, install a restrictor on the other head, fill it up with oil, cross my fingers and fire it up.
If the problem is still there, there is a good chance I am sitting the rest of the season out...
I thought you said you checked that(uncovering the
lifter bores)
I am referring to tubing the lifters because they are quite possibly out of round and pressure is bleeding off around them.
I did not get a chance to borrow and inspection light today, but essentially my problem is at the lifters. I know I am not uncovering the lifters at max lift, and really if they are designed well I should not be uncovering them on base circle either (the latter I never remember checking for)....So regardless, if the pump swap doesn't help or fix the issue, these lifter bores will need work 
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630158
06/09/14 11:49 PM
06/09/14 11:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,555
PA
moparacer
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,555
PA
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That HV pump has the same spring in the bypass as a standard pump. if you have a clearance issue causing a pressure problem all you are going to do is move more oil through that clearance. We are not talking about gaining a few lbs of pressure here we are talking about 40-50 psi you are missing. 
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 5.44-126
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630159
06/09/14 11:55 PM
06/09/14 11:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
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Quote:
I chose to run the standard volume pump as that is what I ran in the past with the kevko pan (with a high pressure spring) and oil pressure was never an issue (25psi hot at idle). Last year I went to the HV pump with the stroker and having a remote filter I wanted to make sure the oil going outside of the block was pumped properly. This year I removed the remote filter setup, again just running the kevko pan (6 qts total in the engine and filter this year) and though I should just run the standard volume pump so that I don't suck the Kevko dry. I was going to go to a Milodon pan, but I felt the kevko had a superior design inside the pan and if it would work, why not? I am wondering if oil capacity is my problem, but then again, I added a quart yesterday and it did not do a thing to help.
The roller lifters I am using are the MRL pro plus solid roller lifters, as seen here.
http://www.mrlperformance.com/
At full lift I know the oil band is not being uncovered, but I cannot recall whether or not they are uncovered on base circle...if that was the case, can I get a cam ground to push the lifters up somewhat? These were the only lifters that would be a direct drop in to my factory roller block without grinding on the block (downside is heads have to come off to remove them).
When I primed the motor, I had 60 psi...On cold startup, I have 60 psi also...I don't run a timing chain tensioner, but I do run a Cloyes True roller 9 keyway timing set.
What I don't understand is how the car starts with good pressure, but it just keeps dropping. I bought that second set screw, I am going to drill it and install it either later tonight or tomorrow , but I doubt it will do much.
At this point, if the lifters are not being uncovered in the bores, I am not sure what else to try.
Do those lightning bands uncover at full lift? My first Isky`s did that and I had 20-25 psi max..............
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: moparacer]
#1630160
06/10/14 12:04 AM
06/10/14 12:04 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
That HV pump has the same spring in the bypass as a standard pump. if you have a clearance issue causing a pressure problem all you are going to do is move more oil through that clearance.
We are not talking about gaining a few lbs of pressure here we are talking about 40-50 psi you are missing.
50 psi????
I don't want 60 psi at idle HOT...that is asking for trouble
I get 60 psi at idle cold...even warm when I rev the throttle, I get over 40psi. But I have not stomped on it yet because the low idle pressure is worrying me.
Also, I did mention that I added the high pressure spring to the HV pump tonight before I installed my HV pump..
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1630161
06/10/14 12:06 AM
06/10/14 12:06 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
I chose to run the standard volume pump as that is what I ran in the past with the kevko pan (with a high pressure spring) and oil pressure was never an issue (25psi hot at idle). Last year I went to the HV pump with the stroker and having a remote filter I wanted to make sure the oil going outside of the block was pumped properly. This year I removed the remote filter setup, again just running the kevko pan (6 qts total in the engine and filter this year) and though I should just run the standard volume pump so that I don't suck the Kevko dry. I was going to go to a Milodon pan, but I felt the kevko had a superior design inside the pan and if it would work, why not? I am wondering if oil capacity is my problem, but then again, I added a quart yesterday and it did not do a thing to help.
The roller lifters I am using are the MRL pro plus solid roller lifters, as seen here.
http://www.mrlperformance.com/
At full lift I know the oil band is not being uncovered, but I cannot recall whether or not they are uncovered on base circle...if that was the case, can I get a cam ground to push the lifters up somewhat? These were the only lifters that would be a direct drop in to my factory roller block without grinding on the block (downside is heads have to come off to remove them).
When I primed the motor, I had 60 psi...On cold startup, I have 60 psi also...I don't run a timing chain tensioner, but I do run a Cloyes True roller 9 keyway timing set.
What I don't understand is how the car starts with good pressure, but it just keeps dropping. I bought that second set screw, I am going to drill it and install it either later tonight or tomorrow , but I doubt it will do much.
At this point, if the lifters are not being uncovered in the bores, I am not sure what else to try.
Do those lightning bands uncover at full lift? My first Isky`s did that and I had 20-25 psi max..............
At full lift the bands are NOT uncovered. I am worried about base circle though. I have some pictures before I put the manifold on that I took on my phone- max lift, ZERO issues, but it is hard to see on base circle from the picture if it is uncovered.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: rebel]
#1630164
06/10/14 09:06 AM
06/10/14 09:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
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Those MRL lifters look like they have plenty of places for oil to get out.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Bad340fish]
#1630165
06/10/14 10:35 AM
06/10/14 10:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,044
Victoria, Australia
Ian
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,044
Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
Those MRL lifters look like they have plenty of places for oil to get out.
i thing a guy over here had same problem changed to morrels fixed it
something to do with oil hole in them are to big
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Ian]
#1630166
06/10/14 10:41 AM
06/10/14 10:41 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Those MRL lifters look like they have plenty of places for oil to get out.
i thing a guy over here had same problem changed to morrels fixed it
something to do with oil hole in them are to big
It is a big hole at .026... I'm thinking about the
same thing
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Airwoofer]
#1630170
06/10/14 12:56 PM
06/10/14 12:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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After seeing that lifter I am glad I went with the Comp Cams 828-16 lifter. Going to check this week on a spare machined block to see if I can slip my roller in the 408 I am running now. Finally got some time to work on my own heads.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: b1dartsport]
#1630172
06/10/14 01:02 PM
06/10/14 01:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,250
Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,250
Between a rock & a hard place
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Quote:
I had the same problem with Crane super pro lifters, T&D rockers and Indy 360-2 230 cc heads. I tubed the passenger oil galley and installed a 1/2" deep pipe plug in the front of the other galley to block oil flow coming up from the mains. Only cost about $60 for the copper pipe and drill bits, a lot cheaper than getting lifter bores bushed or buying new lifters. My 
This is what Mopar was telling us for YEARS to do, right? Cheap and simple.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: cudadoug]
#1630173
06/10/14 01:13 PM
06/10/14 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
I had the same problem with Crane super pro lifters, T&D rockers and Indy 360-2 230 cc heads. I tubed the passenger oil galley and installed a 1/2" deep pipe plug in the front of the other galley to block oil flow coming up from the mains. Only cost about $60 for the copper pipe and drill bits, a lot cheaper than getting lifter bores bushed or buying new lifters. My
This is what Mopar was telling us for YEARS to do, right? Cheap and simple.
Cant do it if you run push rod oiling like I am...
I'm thinking about changing back to the stock oiling
but thats only if I stay with the W-2s.. my W-5s have
the short shaft TD rockers and have to run PR oiling
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: b1dartsport]
#1630175
06/10/14 09:36 PM
06/10/14 09:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
I had the same problem with Crane super pro lifters, T&D rockers and Indy 360-2 230 cc heads. I tubed the passenger oil galley and installed a 1/2" deep pipe plug in the front of the other galley to block oil flow coming up from the mains. Only cost about $60 for the copper pipe and drill bits, a lot cheaper than getting lifter bores bushed or buying new lifters. My
The engine has to come out and apart for this, correct?
I just got the pan back on tonight...unfortunately the silicone is not dried up enough to try starting it tonight..Hopefully tomorrow.
I am hopeful, but know that more then likely this will not fix the problem...[Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] luck man..
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1630178
06/10/14 10:07 PM
06/10/14 10:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-828-16/
John, only reason I am running the MRL's- they are guranteed to fit a factory roller blocks taller lifter bosses, and they had pressure fed oiling to the rollers so that they live on the street.
I did not want to grind on my block as the lifters were supposed to be dropped in with the engine still in the car (that never happened though...but I still had the lifters, they look like a nice piece, so I still used them).
Tried calling MRL today, but it kept saying phone lines were down. Going to try calling him tomorrow and see what he says.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: ccarson]
#1630179
06/10/14 10:29 PM
06/10/14 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 795
Glendale Az
Darryls-Demon
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 795
Glendale Az
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Quote:
You have an internal leak too much oil on top means less for the rods and mains.
when running solid rollers bush the lifter bores, straightens up the lifter geometry and controls and and limits the amount of oil going to the top end, if you do not have push rod oiling and dont want to have the lifter bores bushed at least do the old copper tube trick cheap dirty and effective.
SB Chrysler's have too much oil available to the top end of the motor, My engine builder explained this to me and would not install
solid rollers without bushing the lifter bores, the factory lifter bores in my block were not inline or in location.
I have Comp solid roller lifters, TD rockers and pushrod oiling
I have a .720 lift solid roller and no excess oil to the top end
35 psi oil pressure @ idle
My W2 headed SB has push rod oiling TD rockers .700 lift solid roller, the cam has 5500 miles on it and the lifters have around 9500 miles and 65 passes at the track and they have never been rebuilt. lifter bores are NOT bushed. Motor has 30 psi at idle, 20 in gear.
Needless to say I have not any problems with my valve train setup.
Brian and his dad Fred at IMM engines built the motor.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Darryls-Demon]
#1630180
06/10/14 10:33 PM
06/10/14 10:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
You have an internal leak too much oil on top means less for the rods and mains.
when running solid rollers bush the lifter bores, straightens up the lifter geometry and controls and and limits the amount of oil going to the top end, if you do not have push rod oiling and dont want to have the lifter bores bushed at least do the old copper tube trick cheap dirty and effective.
SB Chrysler's have too much oil available to the top end of the motor, My engine builder explained this to me and would not install
solid rollers without bushing the lifter bores, the factory lifter bores in my block were not inline or in location.
I have Comp solid roller lifters, TD rockers and pushrod oiling
I have a .720 lift solid roller and no excess oil to the top end
35 psi oil pressure @ idle
My W2 headed SB has push rod oiling TD rockers .700 lift solid roller, the cam has 5500 miles on it and the lifters have around 9500 miles and 65 passes at the track and they have never been rebuilt. lifter bores are NOT bushed. Motor has 30 psi at idle, 20 in gear.
Needless to say I have not any problems with my valve train setup.
Brian and his dad Fred at IMM engines built the motor.
You dont have the EDM oil hole do you.. thats where
I think the problem is.. that and his spring oilers
but now he is restricting the oilers
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630183
06/10/14 10:56 PM
06/10/14 10:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 795
Glendale Az
Darryls-Demon
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 795
Glendale Az
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You have an internal leak too much oil on top means less for the rods and mains.
when running solid rollers bush the lifter bores, straightens up the lifter geometry and controls and and limits the amount of oil going to the top end, if you do not have push rod oiling and dont want to have the lifter bores bushed at least do the old copper tube trick cheap dirty and effective.
SB Chrysler's have too much oil available to the top end of the motor, My engine builder explained this to me and would not install
solid rollers without bushing the lifter bores, the factory lifter bores in my block were not inline or in location.
I have Comp solid roller lifters, TD rockers and pushrod oiling
I have a .720 lift solid roller and no excess oil to the top end
35 psi oil pressure @ idle
My W2 headed SB has push rod oiling TD rockers .700 lift solid roller, the cam has 5500 miles on it and the lifters have around 9500 miles and 65 passes at the track and they have never been rebuilt. lifter bores are NOT bushed. Motor has 30 psi at idle, 20 in gear.
Needless to say I have not any problems with my valve train setup.
Brian and his dad Fred at IMM engines built the motor.
You dont have the EDM oil hole do you.. thats where
I think the problem is.. that and his spring oilers
but now he is restricting the oilers
I am not sure Mike if the Comp lifters have EDM oiling or not.
On Dragweek 2012 I checked the valve lash once, this was with the smaller cam { I had time while Moparbilly was changing a head gasket
]
The lifters had 7000 miles on them at the start of DW 2013 and I did not pull the valve covers all week, I did check the oil Thursday evening though.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630188
06/11/14 07:29 PM
06/11/14 07:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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My money is on the problem not being the lifters but something else over looked. Take a step back and cool off for a bit.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: ademon]
#1630190
06/11/14 07:44 PM
06/11/14 07:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
So your running a lot more lift than what MRL specs these lifters for?? The oil psi now isn't terrible, is that with 20/50?
No, its .500 lobe lift...My cam is .412 lobe lift, so I am running well within what is safe for them.
The oil psi I think is absolute garbage- my oil temps were only at 210, and when I drive around they can get up to 230/240 which will thin the oil out even more. I was running my Brad Penn 10W40 oil that I still had
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1630191
06/11/14 07:46 PM
06/11/14 07:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
My money is on the problem not being the lifters but something else over looked. Take a step back and cool off for a bit.
Honestly dude, I have no idea what else it could be...I just had the engine apart...I made SURE all the oil plugs were secure and back in their correct spots, the bottom end clearances did not change...All that changed was cam, lifters, and heads- I have now tried different oil, restrictors in the heads, different pumps, and still squat.
I am going to take the car out around the block now for a bit, see if it acts any different under load, but I highly doubt it.
It is hard to take a break from it when I am DYING to get back in and race it, but at this point I think I do need a break
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1630192
06/11/14 07:51 PM
06/11/14 07:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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Matt to go one step further on the oil plugs Bob was talking about I gotta tell you a story about my Duster. When I bought the car it had an edelbrock headed 360 engine with a 510 hydraulic cam and ran mid 11's. This car sounded like CRAP when idling or driving around the pits but once you got it in the burn-out box and down the track it sounded great. When I finally tore the engine down for rebuild it was missing not one plug but three. The one Bob was talking about that you can see with the distributor out was missing, The small pressed in one under the main cap was missing, and the one under the oil filter was missing. The hydraulic lifters would pump up when reved up but it sounded like a sewing machine at low rpm.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1630193
06/11/14 07:53 PM
06/11/14 07:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
Just tried running the car with the HV pump installed. I only let it warm up in the driveway, didn't try driving it around at all.
Water temps got between 180-200 and oil temps were at about 210 degrees and idle in gear was around 10-12 pounds (900-1000 rpms) and in neutral at around 13-1400rpms around 18-20psi.
I spoke with Mike at MRL. The lifters are designed to not uncover on base circle or max lift with a .500 lobe on the cams, which I am nowhere near running. He also said he has never seen this issue before, and that he has also not had to tube a small block in years unless it was for a high rpm dirt track engine.
My motivation at this point has dropped to zero...Not even sure I want to tube this block- I have to decide what I am going to do when I yank it out to fix it, and in the mean time I am thinking of throwing together a budget stock headed stock stroke sb in it just so I can have some fun and spray the piss out of it.
Matt I know how you feel about right now but its not a very hard or time consuming project, but it is a project. Its been awhile since I did mine but I lined up all the needed tubing and drill bits ahead of time. I wish you lived closer and together we could bang this out. Just a suggestion but why don't you put a small 550 lift solid in this engine and start on a fresh block and work on it as time and money are available. It would give you a needed break and you could still enjoy the car.
I know it is not a time consuming project, but finding the time to even work on it is getting difficult. With 408ci, a stock block, and nitrous, I am not even sure I want to put more money/time into this block to put it back together and possibly blow things up- not to mention, driving this thing around with hardblock on the street sucks.
My dad has a 340 sitting on the shelf in the garage with stock x heads and a .484 lift cam, and I have spare intakes, headers, carbs, and cams...I am thinking I might yank the current motor, put it on the stand at my buddy's place, then do a nice redneck rebuild on the 340, throw on some of my spare parts, hope for a high 12 and spray the beejesus out of it at the track to just have some fun.
I really don't know at this point...With our brutal winter I was really looking forward to the summer and racing, but that won't be happening anytime soon for me. Things could be worse though, I have to keep reminding myself its just a damn car lol
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630194
06/11/14 07:56 PM
06/11/14 07:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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Oh boy, tornado warnings going off.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630195
06/11/14 08:00 PM
06/11/14 08:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
LSP
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
So your running a lot more lift than what MRL specs these lifters for?? The oil psi now isn't terrible, is that with 20/50?
No, its .500 lobe lift...My cam is .412 lobe lift, so I am running well within what is safe for them.
The oil psi I think is absolute garbage- my oil temps were only at 210, and when I drive around they can get up to 230/240 which will thin the oil out even more. I was running my Brad Penn 10W40 oil that I still had
I'd pull the manifold and see if you can get a good look at the lifters on the base circle with a small reversible mirror.
Did you rev it at all? If so, what did the oil pressure do?
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1630196
06/11/14 08:00 PM
06/11/14 08:00 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Matt to go one step further on the oil plugs Bob was talking about I gotta tell you a story about my Duster. When I bought the car it had an edelbrock headed 360 engine with a 510 hydraulic cam and ran mid 11's. This car sounded like CRAP when idling or driving around the pits but once you got it in the burn-out box and down the track it sounded great. When I finally tore the engine down for rebuild it was missing not one plug but three. The one Bob was talking about that you can see with the distributor out was missing, The small pressed in one under the main cap was missing, and the one under the oil filter was missing. The hydraulic lifters would pump up when reved up but it sounded like a sewing machine at low rpm.
Im going to pull the dizzy and just check, it can't hurt and takes 2 minutes. The one under the cap is good, I just put a new one in and it is SOLID.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630199
06/11/14 08:09 PM
06/11/14 08:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
Just-a-dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
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Matt you said the MRL lifters pressure feed the wheel, are they also set up for push rod oil?
If so are you feeding oil to the top both ways?
"Just a Bracket car dressed up like a streetcar"
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630200
06/11/14 09:35 PM
06/11/14 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I'm still a FIRM believer its the lifters with that .026 hole leaking a ton of oil... I'm planning on pulling mine out and putting my other(stock style rollers) in just to see... I've built PLENTY of roller engines with the so called stock type rollers and NEVER had a low oil pressure issue.. until now.. the most I get hot at cruise speed(2200 rpm) is 50psi.. I ALWAYS had 70psi above idle rpm with a standard pump.. I dont have the issue of your boss height to deal with so I dont have to get special lifter height bars
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: BPE]
#1630201
06/11/14 09:41 PM
06/11/14 09:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Matthew,
I have a brand new set of Comp 8043 lifters with the inboard link bars that I will send to you to try, if you are wanting to see if that will make any difference. Just one more thing to rule out without having to spend a lot of time or money. I'm assuming the pistons worked out with the valve reliefs when you went to the Indy's.
Rod
That is very kind of you Rod, only thing is nobody knows or can gurantee that their lifters are drop in to these roller blocks other then MRL, which is why I went with his.
And yes, no issues with the pistons
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Just-a-dart]
#1630203
06/11/14 10:05 PM
06/11/14 10:05 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Matt you said the MRL lifters pressure feed the wheel, are they also set up for push rod oil?
If so are you feeding oil to the top both ways?
They are also set up for pushrod oiling, but I am not oiling through the pushrods, my mantons are solid.
Mike at MRL said the EDM hole is .020" and to possibly try tightening up the lash on my cam from .024", but I am not sure that would make much of a difference since already trying the restrictors didn't do much to help.
I took the car for a drive again just a little while ago...Oil pressure got to about 10-12lbs at idle, and under WOT only 50lbs 
I am going to pull the intake tomorrow and see what is going on. I have cooled down somewhat and will probably be pulling this engine to tube the lifter galleries- now I just need to find out more info on the tubing process and how the lifters get any oil after this mod is done
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630204
06/11/14 10:16 PM
06/11/14 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Matt you said the MRL lifters pressure feed the wheel, are they also set up for push rod oil?
If so are you feeding oil to the top both ways?
They are also set up for pushrod oiling, but I am not oiling through the pushrods, my mantons are solid.
Mike at MRL said the EDM hole is .020" and to possibly try tightening up the lash on my cam from .024", but I am not sure that would make much of a difference since already trying the restrictors didn't do much to help.
I took the car for a drive again just a little while ago...Oil pressure got to about 10-12lbs at idle, and under WOT only 50lbs
I am going to pull the intake tomorrow and see what is going on. I have cooled down somewhat and will probably be pulling this engine to tube the lifter galleries- now I just need to find out more info on the tubing process and how the lifters get any oil after this mod is done
IF you tube the block with NO holes, the only oil
that lubes the lifter is drain back.. not a big deal
as there is plenty of drain back.... he is saying its
a .020 hole for the axle/roller?... if it is.. its
.020X 16... thats a big leak.. thats why I still think
its a lifter issue and I will know for sure in a few weeks
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630205
06/11/14 10:20 PM
06/11/14 10:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Matt you said the MRL lifters pressure feed the wheel, are they also set up for push rod oil?
If so are you feeding oil to the top both ways?
They are also set up for pushrod oiling, but I am not oiling through the pushrods, my mantons are solid.
Mike at MRL said the EDM hole is .020" and to possibly try tightening up the lash on my cam from .024", but I am not sure that would make much of a difference since already trying the restrictors didn't do much to help.
I took the car for a drive again just a little while ago...Oil pressure got to about 10-12lbs at idle, and under WOT only 50lbs
I am going to pull the intake tomorrow and see what is going on. I have cooled down somewhat and will probably be pulling this engine to tube the lifter galleries- now I just need to find out more info on the tubing process and how the lifters get any oil after this mod is done
IF you tube the block with NO holes, the only oil
that lubes the lifter is drain back.. not a big deal
as there is plenty of drain back.... he is saying its
a .020 hole for the axle/roller?... if it is.. its
.020X 16... thats a big leak.. thats why I still think
its a lifter issue and I will know for sure in a few weeks
Mike, can you explain what you mean by tubing with NO holes? I am trying to understand the tubing process- I read up on it in the engine manual, but it does not mention an option of not drilling the holes after the block has been tubed. Oil just from drainback is sufficient to lube the lifters???
Also, does anyone know what drill bit size comes in the tube and peen tool kit from Mopar?
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: W5DART66]
#1630211
06/11/14 10:37 PM
06/11/14 10:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
5lbs at idle so what will be fine.
50lbs at wide open little light but will be supper stock hemi guys run 40-50 lbs max pressure.
Put some 25/50 racing penzoil drive it around see how your pressure is then cut filter see how it looks.
The only problem will be sucking pan dry may have to run some extra in the pan as you will have 2qts up top working it way back down.
I dont have any problem with the volume in the pan
as I have 8 1/2 qts in the pan plus filter... HE will
have a problem... I am thinking about pulling my roller
cam just because of all the noise... great for racing
but DAMN loud on the street... I guess I'm getting OLD
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: W5DART66]
#1630214
06/11/14 10:47 PM
06/11/14 10:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
5lbs at idle so what will be fine.
50lbs at wide open little light but will be ok supper stock hemi guys run 40-50 lbs max pressure.
Put some 25/50 racing penzoil drive it around see how your pressure is then cut filter see how it looks.
The only problem will be sucking pan dry may have to run some extra in the pan as you will have 2qts up top working it way back down.
But this isn't a superstock deal, its a street motor. I had 15W50 Mobil 1 racing synthetic in it, and I had the same pressure as I do with the 10W40 Penn racing oil. Would 20W50 make much of a difference?
I remember posting on here last year when I was worried that 60lbs would not be enough pressure at WOT....50lbs just scares the bejesus out of me, it seems low for longevity's sake...but I am not an expert, which is why I am asking
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: 1967dartgt]
#1630216
06/11/14 10:48 PM
06/11/14 10:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
5lbs at idle so what will be fine.
50lbs at wide open little light but will be supper stock hemi guys run 40-50 lbs max pressure.
Put some 25/50 racing penzoil drive it around see how your pressure is then cut filter see how it looks.
The only problem will be sucking pan dry may have to run some extra in the pan as you will have 2qts up top working it way back down.
I dont have any problem with the volume in the pan
as I have 8 1/2 qts in the pan plus filter... HE will
have a problem... I am thinking about pulling my roller
cam just because of all the noise... great for racing
but DAMN loud on the street... I guess I'm getting OLD
He was talking to Matt.
MAYBE so.. but he clicked on my post so he basically
was talking to me... if you want to talk to THAT person
click on his POST OR his QUOTE.. then you are talking
to him
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: BPE]
#1630217
06/11/14 10:49 PM
06/11/14 10:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
And what they look like in a LA block.
Rod
Rod, I will pull the intake and see what is up first...I really don't think anything is being uncovered, but I won't know until I look. If nothing is uncovered it seems my only option is to tube (although I am not really sure I understand how even tubing can fix the problem if what it really might be is excessive lifter to lifter bore clearance).
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: ademon]
#1630218
06/11/14 10:50 PM
06/11/14 10:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
I would try tightening the lash as he said, run a synthetic race 20/50, and a good quality filter.
How will that help though? I am not sure I understand the fix there. I ran 15W50 Mobil 1 synthetic, and I only ever run Wix filters.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: W5DART66]
#1630220
06/11/14 10:53 PM
06/11/14 10:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Not 20/50. 25/50 racing oil Penzoil
50lbs will be fine it's the sucking pan dry that would scare me more.
How do I know if its sucking the pan dry?
Also, I am running 6 qts in my engine...5 in the pan, another 1 in the filter and rest of the engine. Is that not sufficient?
It seems from what I have read that a Moroso pan poured only holds 6 quarts in the sump, one more then my current pan. Will an upgrade to that pan really help?
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630222
06/11/14 10:57 PM
06/11/14 10:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
And what they look like in a LA block.
Rod
Rod, I will pull the intake and see what is up first...I really don't think anything is being uncovered, but I won't know until I look. If nothing is uncovered it seems my only option is to tube (although I am not really sure I understand how even tubing can fix the problem if what it really might be is excessive lifter to lifter bore clearance).
IF you tube the block you get ZERO loss from the lifter
bores... now the way it is you have a loss from the bore
to the lifter and the oil thats going through the
lifter to either the PR and the roller hole.. even
if you dont run PR oiling and the lifter is set up
for it you still get that loss
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630224
06/12/14 12:00 AM
06/12/14 12:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
So John and Mike- the lifters, once tubed and drilled in the galleries, only get oil from drainback? If that is the case, I am guessing it would be a good idea to remove the restrictors I have in the heads to ensure that enough oil makes it up top and drains back to the lifters?
After the block is tubed, will there be enough oil to lubricate the lifters just from drainback? Is there a downfall to this if I ever wanted to go back to a flat tappet in this block sometime down the road?
Sorry for all the questions guys...I really do appreciate everyone's input and advice so far in here! It has all been of great help
Thats the PROBLEM when you tube the block.. once you
do it.. its done(without some major work).. the return
oil EVEN with your restrictors is plenty... once the
head starts draining back it drains plenty.. start\up takes a minute
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630225
06/12/14 12:16 AM
06/12/14 12:16 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Couldnt you drill some pin holes in the copper tube to at least give SOME oil to the lifters for the edm oilers? Seems tubing the block would defeat the purpose of the axle oiling.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1630227
06/12/14 12:31 AM
06/12/14 12:31 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Couldnt you drill some pin holes in the copper tube to at least give SOME oil to the lifters for the edm oilers? Seems tubing the block would defeat the purpose of the axle oiling.
From what I've heard you dont need the added oil to
the roller IF you keep the RPM up above 1000-1100 rpm
and I think I'm going that way.. I was trying to keep
it at 800-900 with the edm hole for the street but
I'm at 22 psi hot idle with a HV pump.. I want to
see oil pressure at idle on my gauge.. just like him
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: b1dartsport]
#1630230
06/12/14 12:42 AM
06/12/14 12:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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I bought my bit from my local Ade Hardware. Matt with this set-up I actually changed from 20-50 Brad Penn to 10-30 Brad Penn to LOWER it to the pressure I wanted with a standard oil pump.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: b1dartsport]
#1630232
06/12/14 12:50 AM
06/12/14 12:50 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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I bought a Direct Connection kit the first time I did one 35+ years ago and would never do it again but here's a picture and part number. Way to much money. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/racoilrespac.html
Last edited by pittsburghracer; 06/12/14 12:50 AM.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1630234
06/12/14 01:08 AM
06/12/14 01:08 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I bought a Direct Connection kit the first time I did one 35+ years ago and would never do it again but here's a picture and part number. Way to much money.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/racoilrespac.html
I bought the same kit... it is a 2 part kit..but for
me I get 25% of the price..I still have it and have
loaned it out many times
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1630236
06/12/14 07:51 AM
06/12/14 07:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
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Isn't tubing the block going to negate the benefits of the pressurized axle oiling on his lifters? J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: RAMM]
#1630237
06/12/14 09:14 AM
06/12/14 09:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
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Matt, my car is a street car and I am running with a tubed block and roller lifters. My comp 828-16 lifters uncovered the oil hole no doubt.
I have at least 5000 miles on my current set of lifters working just off drainback oil. Of that mileage about 2500 of it is drag week so thats days on end at 3000-4000RPM in 100* outside temps. On drag week I run Rotella 15W40 with a qt of Lucas just because of the long drives. I normally run 10W30 and have a hot idle psi of about 18(with 10w30).
I am fixing to pull my current set of lifters to send to comp to be checked and/or rebuild. The only reason I am doing this is because roller lifters are a common failure with the drag week crowd so I am trying to be safe.
I had my machine shop do my lifter tube so I can't speak to that. I did however go and enlarge all of the oil passages in my block myself, while a little stressful with the long drill bits it wasn't that bad to do and I feel it was well worth it.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Bad340fish]
#1630238
06/12/14 11:53 AM
06/12/14 11:53 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,709
NJ central
Scamp408
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,709
NJ central
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I run the 828 with no tube and have no problems. A lot has to do with the cam you have. Also my old motor the oil plug was left out by dist gear and had same psi you have now. I tried the the hv pump with the high psi spring not much better. I found the plug missing and was able to install through little dist hole (pain) and my pressure was 100psi cold at 2000rpm.
Last edited by scamp408; 06/12/14 06:43 PM.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Scamp408]
#1630239
06/12/14 12:56 PM
06/12/14 12:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
I run the 828 with no tube and have no problems. A lot has to do with the can you have. Also my old motor the oil plug was left out but dist gear and had same pssi you have now.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: B G Racing]
#1630240
06/12/14 11:50 PM
06/12/14 11:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
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So I have some results- pulled the intake, primed the motor...There is a TON of oil coming out of the bottom of the lifters! So it is definitely there where I am losing oil pressure. There were no plugs missing (was actually hoping it was that so it would be an easy fix)
It also seems like the cam is getting a ton of oil on journals 2 and 4 constantly (cant remember if the cam is fully grooved or not).
I already have enlarged all my oil passages in this block (I followed GuitarJones oiling mods over on forabodiesonly.com years ago, worked out great).
One thing I am not understanding though- by drilling the holes in the tube in the lifter gallery, am I not just pumping oil into the tube? I am still not sure I understand what those holes are for.
And yes, the tube will negate the pressure fed oiling to the rollers, but at this point I am not going to spend coin on a costly machining operation for a stock block.
I am getting off work early tomorrow, yanking the engine, getting it on a stand at the shop, and hopefully after work every day this week I can get it apart, fixed, and back together and maybe even in the car next weekend if the starts align and luck is on my side.
I need to find the bits to do this. I am also wondering if I can go back to my standard volume pump after this is all said and done? I will also be pulling the restrictors out of the heads to get more oil up there and drained back to lube the lifters.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#1630242
06/13/14 12:25 AM
06/13/14 12:25 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
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Quote:
Quote:
Isn't tubing the block going to negate the benefits of the pressurized axle oiling on his lifters? J.Rob
Yes! That's why the Comp lifter works so well. It works 95% of the time!
I'm working with both Crane and Isky on a new Mopar lifter that will take care of some issues still seen by the comp lifter.
What do you mean by "it works 95% of the time"?
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#1630244
06/13/14 07:57 AM
06/13/14 07:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,101
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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Tulsa OK
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This is all just my opinion but I believe there is two much casting variation to make a roller lifter that "for sure" works in a stock block. The only answer I can see is making the wheel smaller and allowing more of the lifter body to cover it. I don't believe a smaller wheel is a good option for the higher performance crowd.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630245
06/13/14 11:02 AM
06/13/14 11:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
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Quote:
So I have some results- pulled the intake, primed the motor...There is a TON of oil coming out of the bottom of the lifters! So it is definitely there where I am losing oil pressure. There were no plugs missing (was actually hoping it was that so it would be an easy fix)
It also seems like the cam is getting a ton of oil on journals 2 and 4 constantly (cant remember if the cam is fully grooved or not).
I already have enlarged all my oil passages in this block (I followed GuitarJones oiling mods over on forabodiesonly.com years ago, worked out great).
One thing I am not understanding though- by drilling the holes in the tube in the lifter gallery, am I not just pumping oil into the tube? I am still not sure I understand what those holes are for.
And yes, the tube will negate the pressure fed oiling to the rollers, but at this point I am not going to spend coin on a costly machining operation for a stock block.
I am getting off work early tomorrow, yanking the engine, getting it on a stand at the shop, and hopefully after work every day this week I can get it apart, fixed, and back together and maybe even in the car next weekend if the starts align and luck is on my side.
I need to find the bits to do this. I am also wondering if I can go back to my standard volume pump after this is all said and done? I will also be pulling the restrictors out of the heads to get more oil up there and drained back to lube the lifters.
Matt, The oil leaves the oil pump and goes to the passenger side oil galley first. The lifter bore is to the side of the oil galley and has a large slot in it which feeds oil to the lifters. The tube blocks this slot. The holes you have to drill up from the mains through the tube will feed oil to the rest of the motor.  If you do not drill up from the mains through the tube, the only place you will have oil will be the right side oil galley. You will see this when you get your motor apart.-Randy
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: b1dartsport]
#1630246
06/16/14 01:11 PM
06/16/14 01:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10
Jackson, Michigan
MRL_Performance
member
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member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10
Jackson, Michigan
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Ok, I dont get on here much but I thought I had better see if I can clear a few things up. I do not believe the lifters are totally at fault here. This engine had low side oil pressure to begin with, as stated in the thread. The claim is there is to much oil up top, that has ZERO to do with the lifters as this engine does not oil thru the pushrods.
There will be oil running out of the roller as they are pressure fed with a Very small EDM hole, any pressure fed roller lifter will show this. The claim here is that the Band is coming out the bottom of the lifter bore on base circle. Its not impossible, but highly unlikeley. I have posted a pic of the lifter on base circle with a .420" LOBE lift solid roller cam, not even close to uncovering the band.
If your lifter bore are sloppy, you might have some lose there.
And new info at the very end of this thread might shed some light on the oil pressure issue, Loose cam bearings. If they are puking oil with a drill I can only imagine the oil lose at running RPM.
If the lifters are found the be 100% positive the issue, we will refund your money. But if you take the engine apart and change 2-5 things and is now ok, then we will never know if its 100% the lifters. Im willing to bet that JUST changing the lifters will not net you 20-30psi oil pressure.
I sell them and use them in my builds. If they didnt work then all of my engines would have no oil pressure with the Standard volume, Standard pressure oil pump I always use in my small block builds. But they have plenty of oil pressure. They also dont have very loose cam bearings which are very well known for a low oil pressure issue.
I did suggest running a very tight lash for a short period of time to see if the engine is loosing to much oil in the pushrod oiling area, but I dont know if it was done or not.
Im not saying its IMPOSSIBLE for the lifters to be causing this issue, but its unlikely.
Last edited by MRL_Performance; 06/16/14 01:15 PM.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MRL_Performance]
#1630247
06/16/14 05:19 PM
06/16/14 05:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
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Toronto
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Thanks for replying Mike, but I think you might be taking my post a little out of context.
At no point was I trying to blame the lifters. In fact, the lifters seem to be very high quality and fit just as you had said. My concern, as you can see in my original post was that is this common with pressure fed solid roller lifters. The only reason I titled my post "Indy 360-2 heads and MRL roller lifters" is because those were the only 2 things changed and I thought that would get replies from those who have used either part and could offer insight as to whether this was normal or way off base for either part.
As I had mentioned, and more then once, the oil band was not being uncovered at max lift, and once I pulled the intake, it was not being uncovered on base either. I did not try tighter lash, because to be honest, I did not think that was going to increase my oil pressure 20psi- pulling off the intake proved that. LOTS of oil coming out the bottom of the lifters and the cam bearings. I am not blaming that on the lifters, and know my block probably needs bushed, but instead I am going to tube it since this block is not worth bushing the lifter bores. The cam bearing issue does have me slightly concerned as well, and I am even wondering if there is a way to restrict oil to them at this point (I had to clearance the cam bearings with an old cut cam as a tool, and this the clearance I ended up with where the cam would turn smoothly).
I am not asking for a refund, nor was I even thinking of trying other lifters. I think you are getting the wrong picture here, but I can understand that....Nobody here other then myself built or have seen the inside of this engine, and therefore everything is just a suggestion for what might be happening- to me it looked like lots of oil coming out of the cam and lifters, but then again, I have never primed a solid roller motor before nor paid much attention to cam bearings before when priming a motor, so maybe I am just way off.
Engine is already out of the car and partially torn down. I am going to tube the block, and report back with my results. Hopefully it fixes the issue.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630249
06/16/14 05:55 PM
06/16/14 05:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10
Jackson, Michigan
MRL_Performance
member
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member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10
Jackson, Michigan
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There will be oil coming out the lifter rollers, its made to do that. All the engines I have built with these lifters do that, all of them. None of them have had low oil pressure. I do know that if you do have a grooved cam journal on #2 & #4 and you didnt restrict the oil coming up from the crank, its going to cause an issue. A slight drop in oil pressure is normal going to this style solid roller, maybe 5psi or so, but thats normal. If you only had 10-15psi to begin with, it may cause an issue at idle, but not off idle. If you replaced the oil pump and pressure spring with no change, then you are bleeding a TON of oil somewhere, and my guess is the cam bearings. I have seen this issue first hand before.
I was not directing this right at the owner of the engine but to all who are reading this post. Im just trying to shed some light on this. Its my product thats under attach by some and Im here to help answer some questions.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MRL_Performance]
#1630250
06/16/14 06:03 PM
06/16/14 06:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
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Quote:
There will be oil coming out the lifter rollers, its made to do that. All the engines I have built with these lifters do that, all of them. None of them have had low oil pressure. I do know that if you do have a grooved cam journal on #2 & #4 and you didnt restrict the oil coming up from the crank, its going to cause an issue. A slight drop in oil pressure is normal going to this style solid roller, maybe 5psi or so, but thats normal. If you only had 10-15psi to begin with, it may cause an issue at idle, but not off idle. If you replaced the oil pump and pressure spring with no change, then you are bleeding a TON of oil somewhere, and my guess is the cam bearings. I have seen this issue first hand before.
I was not directing this right at the owner of the engine but to all who are reading this post. Im just trying to shed some light on this. Its my product thats under attach by some and Im here to help answer some questions.
I only ever had 15 psi at hot idle last year when the car was REALLY HOT...as in it wanted to shut off from being so hot. However, cruising and WOT pressure was not effected by this. It was normally 20-25 psi last year.
I do have oil being restricted to my #1 and #3 cam bearings, but not to my #2 and #4. This is an LA motor, and as such, the rockers are fed from #2 and #4 cam bearings. I believe this cam also has full groove on the #2 and #4 journals. So is there even a safe way to limit the oil going through there since it is also supplying the rockers?
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630251
06/16/14 06:05 PM
06/16/14 06:05 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
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Quote:
why don't you check the lifter bores while you have it out?
That might be something I have done
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MRL_Performance]
#1630252
06/16/14 06:07 PM
06/16/14 06:07 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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How much of a restriction do you recommend at the #2 and #4 cam bearings when the cam is fully grooved?
Last edited by onig; 06/16/14 06:10 PM.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630253
06/16/14 06:12 PM
06/16/14 06:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
why don't you check the lifter bores while you have it out?
That might be something I have done
what kind of clearance did you have?
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630254
06/16/14 07:00 PM
06/16/14 07:00 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 46
North
Dodgenu
member
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member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 46
North
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Quote:
" (I had to clearance the cam bearings with an old cut cam as a tool, and this the clearance I ended up with where the cam would turn smoothly).
Here is your problem right there.You messed up the cam bearings by trying to do a hookie clearence job with grooves in a cam.WTF only on Moparts do I see guys say to do this [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean]. If you bolt your crank down and it don't turn very good do you get another crank ,grind grooves in it, bolt it down and spin it to get clearence...NO so you don't do it with cam bearings either.Put some new cam bearings in it .LOL
My motor runs 60 lbs hot and 80 at fully boogie and I just ran 9.70s with my 408 duster
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Dodgenu]
#1630255
06/16/14 07:02 PM
06/16/14 07:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
" (I had to clearance the cam bearings with an old cut cam as a tool, and this the clearance I ended up with where the cam would turn smoothly).
Here is your problem right there.You messed up the cam bearings by trying to do a hookie clearence job with grooves in a cam.WTF only on Moparts do I see guys say to do this [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean]. If you bolt your crank down and it don't turn very good do you get another crank ,grind grooves in it, bolt it down and spin it to get clearence...NO so you don't do it with cam bearings either.Put some new cam bearings in it .LOL
My motor runs 60 lbs hot and 80 at fully boogie and I just ran 9.70s with my 408 duster
 thats where I would start
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Dodgenu]
#1630256
06/16/14 07:03 PM
06/16/14 07:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
" (I had to clearance the cam bearings with an old cut cam as a tool, and this the clearance I ended up with where the cam would turn smoothly).
Here is your problem right there.You messed up the cam bearings by trying to do a hookie clearence job with grooves in a cam.WTF only on Moparts do I see guys say to do this [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean]. If you bolt your crank down and it don't turn very good do you get another crank ,grind grooves in it, bolt it down and spin it to get clearence...NO so you don't do it with cam bearings either.Put some new cam bearings in it .LOL
My motor runs 60 lbs hot and 80 at fully boogie and I just ran 9.70s with my 408 duster
There are machine shops that do this exact thing! And they are new cam bearings- the last 3 sets of them I have installed were all TIGHT...they NEEDED to be clearanced, so do you suggest I put another set in that tight and just run it? lol
Thanks for the input though!
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630258
06/16/14 07:08 PM
06/16/14 07:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
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Quote:
we suggest you take it to a machine shop and find out why they are tight. or you can keep chasing your tail
More then one machine shop suggested this method back when the engine was apart 2 years ago and I first ran into the issue....Also mentioned that SB mopars tend to have tight cam journals
I am no expert, nor claim to be...just do the best I can with the advice given to me by the experts
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630259
06/16/14 07:12 PM
06/16/14 07:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
we suggest you take it to a machine shop and find out why they are tight. or you can keep chasing your tail
More then one machine shop suggested this method back when the engine was apart 2 years ago and I first ran into the issue....Also mentioned that SB mopars tend to have tight cam journals
I am no expert, nor claim to be...just do the best I can with the advice given to me by the experts
I have at least4 small blocks and not a one of them has tight cam bearings. and all idle at 60psi with stock pumps.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630260
06/16/14 07:46 PM
06/16/14 07:46 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 46
North
Dodgenu
member
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member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 46
North
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
we suggest you take it to a machine shop and find out why they are tight. or you can keep chasing your tail
More then one machine shop suggested this method back when the engine was apart 2 years ago and I first ran into the issue....Also mentioned that SB mopars tend to have tight cam journals
I am no expert, nor claim to be...just do the best I can with the advice given to me by the experts
I have at least4 small blocks and not a one of them has tight cam bearings. and all idle at 60psi with stock pumps.
I don't have or have had any issues with tight cam bearing either.
If the cam is tight then usually I find that it is bent, even if it is a fresh ground cam most of the time they need to be straightened.
I will put the cam on V blocks and put my dial indicator on each of the journals to make sure the cam is straight.If you have .001 runout in 2 different journal it will have a tight spot.If the cam checks out to be .000 run out in all journals then lightly massage the bearings with a grey scotch brite and some WD-40.If the tight ness continues then remove the bearing and check for scaring where the bearing rides,Someone may have marred the surface removing the cam bearings .If all esle looks good then polish the cam journals til it spins freely.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Dodgenu]
#1630262
06/16/14 09:25 PM
06/16/14 09:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
we suggest you take it to a machine shop and find out why they are tight. or you can keep chasing your tail
More then one machine shop suggested this method back when the engine was apart 2 years ago and I first ran into the issue....Also mentioned that SB mopars tend to have tight cam journals
I am no expert, nor claim to be...just do the best I can with the advice given to me by the experts
I have at least4 small blocks and not a one of them has tight cam bearings. and all idle at 60psi with stock pumps.
I don't have or have had any issues with tight cam bearing either.
If the cam is tight then usually I find that it is bent, even if it is a fresh ground cam most of the time they need to be straightened.
I will put the cam on V blocks and put my dial indicator on each of the journals to make sure the cam is straight.If you have .001 runout in 2 different journal it will have a tight spot.If the cam checks out to be .000 run out in all journals then lightly massage the bearings with a grey scotch brite and some WD-40.If the tight ness continues then remove the bearing and check for scaring where the bearing rides,Someone may have marred the surface removing the cam bearings .If all esle looks good then polish the cam journals til it spins freely.
and i know he doesn't want to hear it but he's pissin in the wind not finding the problem and fixing it. putting a tube in wont fix the problem I bet.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MRL_Performance]
#1630265
06/16/14 11:37 PM
06/16/14 11:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
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Quote:
As a builder, I run into tight cam bearings all the time. Its more of an issue in BBM, but it does come up in SBM from time to time. Its 95% the cam bearing bore that is to small, and it needs to be sized right. If the bore is tight there are 2 ways to fix it, either make the hole bigger where the bearing gets pressed in, or make the OD of the cam bearing smaller to fit better without being "crushed" into a smaller size.
If you DO have the full groove cam journal, I would put a restriction in the feed up from the mains to about .040-.060" You can do this with a threaded stop screw and a hole drilled in it. You dont need much of a hole if its there all the time. .060" would be on the very HIGH side. If you dont want to do it there, then it has to be done in the head under the rocker mount.
Do they offer reduced OD cam bearings for the SBM? This has been an issue with this block from day one when I first replaced the cam bearings.
I tore the engine down today, and the cam is indeed full groove on 2 and 4 cam journals. However, I have a question about the restriction- I have already inserted a set screw that I drilled a .062" hole in as a restrictor in each head in the pedestal that feeds oil to the rocker shafts and it made absolutely no difference....Unless installing a restrictor in the passage from the mains to the cam bearings would make the restriction act differently, then that trick did not work to give me more pressure. So would that mean my lifter bores are more then likely the culprit???
As I tore down the engine today, there were no oil plugs, passages, parts, etc. amiss. As I said before, all I changed over the winter was the heads and the cam, and before that oil pressure was not an issue.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630266
06/16/14 11:41 PM
06/16/14 11:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
we suggest you take it to a machine shop and find out why they are tight. or you can keep chasing your tail
More then one machine shop suggested this method back when the engine was apart 2 years ago and I first ran into the issue....Also mentioned that SB mopars tend to have tight cam journals
I am no expert, nor claim to be...just do the best I can with the advice given to me by the experts
I have at least4 small blocks and not a one of them has tight cam bearings. and all idle at 60psi with stock pumps.
I don't have or have had any issues with tight cam bearing either.
If the cam is tight then usually I find that it is bent, even if it is a fresh ground cam most of the time they need to be straightened.
I will put the cam on V blocks and put my dial indicator on each of the journals to make sure the cam is straight.If you have .001 runout in 2 different journal it will have a tight spot.If the cam checks out to be .000 run out in all journals then lightly massage the bearings with a grey scotch brite and some WD-40.If the tight ness continues then remove the bearing and check for scaring where the bearing rides,Someone may have marred the surface removing the cam bearings .If all esle looks good then polish the cam journals til it spins freely.
and i know he doesn't want to hear it but he's pissin in the wind not finding the problem and fixing it. putting a tube in wont fix the problem I bet.
Just so I am clear about it, I have v blocks that I drop my cams into to check for straightness- this block has been this way from day 1! Essentially what I am being told to do with grey scotchbrite is what I did with the cam tool that I use, and now the clearance is ok.
The block is apart to find the problem! Did you think I pulled the motor and tore it down because I enjoy it? lol...I know that the tubing modification is quite the process, and to be honest, I am not looking forward to doing it AT ALL! I mic'd the lifters and they are within spec...the restrictors to the heads did not work, so I am thinking it is the lifter bores that are the problem, but I don't know yet for certain till I do a couple of other things.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630267
06/17/14 12:10 AM
06/17/14 12:10 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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Matt when you tube this block take your time and do some research. Fully understand why you are doing what you are doing as you go along. Forget to drill a feed hole or plug off something and you WILL wipe out the bearings. Take your time and ask questions as you go. BE CLEAN, be very clean.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1630268
06/17/14 12:13 AM
06/17/14 12:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
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Quote:
Matt when you tube this block take your time and do some research. Fully understand why you are doing what you are doing as you go along. Forget to drill a feed hole or plug off something and you WILL wipe out the bearings. Take your time and ask questions as you go. BE CLEAN, be very clean.
I have studied the oiling diagram, and also spoke with a fellow local moparts member who has actually generously lent me his reaming bit (the MP one specifically for this) and it makes a lot more sense now. I do understand the point behind it, however, I would like to hear some more from Mike and check a few more things before I give it a go.
Tonight when I tore the motor down I noticed that obviously I will have to drill first into the galley before reaming. Does anybody know what size I can tap the hole at the front of the block that has the press in plug and at the back of the block where the screw in plug is so that I can run pipe plugs there instead?
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MRL_Performance]
#1630270
06/17/14 06:36 AM
06/17/14 06:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Restricting the oil in the head does not address the issue of the oil puking out the cam bearings. Thats why it made no difference. If your cam bearings are too loose, or if the full groove is not able to control the oil, you need to address that.
I do not know of any under size bearings, I have a tool to put them on the lath and take a few thou off the OD of the cam bearing shell until I get the right fit
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Dodgenu]
#1630271
06/17/14 07:00 AM
06/17/14 07:00 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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In the past few years I have come across engines that the cam was tight. The latest was a Pontiac 400 engine. The cam was tight with new bearings. Called some machine shops and they told me to clearance the bearings. They also said that this is now a common issue and run into it quite frequently. The machine shop uses an old cam with grooves cut into the bearing journals to clearance the bearings. The shop actually had two cams likes this and gave me one to keep and use to clearance my bearings. I suppose the most correct way would be to align hone the cam bores and fit oversize bearings in it. I have never heard of oversize cam bearings, they may be out there but have not seen them. I would sooner clearance the cam bearings to allow the cam to spin freely as the bearings are the sacrificial wear members and the least costly. If the cam journals are machined down to fit nicely, that cam is now junk if one would want to use it in another block or sell it. Roller camshafts are not cheap.
"Only on MOPARTS people say to do this clearance trick to the bearings, WTF?" Ahh NO! Looking on the biggest drag racing forum on the Net, YB, and guys will tell you to do the same thing, with all makes, not just Mopars. Dodgenu, you actually said to do essentially the same thing with the scothbrite pad to the bearings and then go a step further to message the cam journals. Like I said I don't agree on the journal part, one little srew-up and theirs no turning back. Cam bearings are only $30 buck a set.
I don't feel that members need to be bashed or criticized for asking questions or doing certain things. Not everybody on this forum is at the same level with experience. This is why we are here, to learn and help out others. We need to give credit to the guys that want to do it them selves. Weather it is to learn, save money, or getting the satisfaction of having done it. Some people just have a machine shop do all the work and not look back. I am sure that most of us do this for a hobby. I am sure that most of us do not have the expensive machines to perform all engine building tasks and only send out what we can't do in our garage. I will never blame a man for trying, as long as he is trying to do the job to the best of his abilities with what he has.
Back on topic, lets try and help out the OP. This is interesting and I am learning as well.
69 Dart
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: MRL_Performance]
#1630272
06/17/14 08:59 AM
06/17/14 08:59 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Restricting the oil in the head does not address the issue of the oil puking out the cam bearings. Thats why it made no difference. If your cam bearings are too loose, or if the full groove is not able to control the oil, you need to address that.
I do not know of any under size bearings, I have a tool to put them on the lath and take a few thou off the OD of the cam bearing shell until I get the right fit
So my only option then would be to restrict the oil going from the mains up to the cam bearings for cam bearings #2 and #4 using a .040-.060" hole in a set screw? The smallest drill bit I have is a .062" bit- I am worried though that a restrictor will hurt how much oil gets up to the rocker arms....should there still be enough going up there with this size of restrictor?
I was always under the impression that by removing material from the OD of the bearing, it would not have the proper "crush" in the cam bores, or possibly fit too loose.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: onig]
#1630273
06/17/14 09:02 AM
06/17/14 09:02 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
In the past few years I have come across engines that the cam was tight. The latest was a Pontiac 400 engine. The cam was tight with new bearings. Called some machine shops and they told me to clearance the bearings. They also said that this is now a common issue and run into it quite frequently. The machine shop uses an old cam with grooves cut into the bearing journals to clearance the bearings. The shop actually had two cams likes this and gave me one to keep and use to clearance my bearings. I suppose the most correct way would be to align hone the cam bores and fit oversize bearings in it. I have never heard of oversize cam bearings, they may be out there but have not seen them. I would sooner clearance the cam bearings to allow the cam to spin freely as the bearings are the sacrificial wear members and the least costly. If the cam journals are machined down to fit nicely, that cam is now junk if one would want to use it in another block or sell it. Roller camshafts are not cheap.
"Only on MOPARTS people say to do this clearance trick to the bearings, WTF?" Ahh NO! Looking on the biggest drag racing forum on the Net, YB, and guys will tell you to do the same thing, with all makes, not just Mopars. Dodgenu, you actually said to do essentially the same thing with the scothbrite pad to the bearings and then go a step further to message the cam journals. Like I said I don't agree on the journal part, one little srew-up and theirs no turning back. Cam bearings are only $30 buck a set.
I don't feel that members need to be bashed or criticized for asking questions or doing certain things. Not everybody on this forum is at the same level with experience. This is why we are here, to learn and help out others. We need to give credit to the guys that want to do it them selves. Weather it is to learn, save money, or getting the satisfaction of having done it. Some people just have a machine shop do all the work and not look back. I am sure that most of us do this for a hobby. I am sure that most of us do not have the expensive machines to perform all engine building tasks and only send out what we can't do in our garage. I will never blame a man for trying, as long as he is trying to do the job to the best of his abilities with what he has.
Back on topic, lets try and help out the OP. This is interesting and I am learning as well.
Thanks for at least recognizing what I am trying to do here. As I said, nobody here has actually seen the engine in question, so no one can say what it is for sure- I can only look for advice, and try to do what I think would work best.
At this point it is looking like a restrictor for the cam bearings as well as tubing the lifter galleries should hopefully help my problem. Going to do some measuring and checking of things first though.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630274
06/17/14 10:11 AM
06/17/14 10:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
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Quote:
Thanks for at least recognizing what I am trying to do here. As I said, nobody here has actually seen the engine in question, so no one can say what it is for sure- I can only look for advice, and try to do what I think would work best.
At this point it is looking like a restrictor for the cam bearings as well as tubing the lifter galleries should hopefully help my problem. Going to do some measuring and checking of things first though.
Good luck with the fix for your issue and this thread has been very informative. Keep your head up and be proud you ask questions for advice. Too many think they know's don't ask and mess stuff up and no one learns anything in that situation.
I had comp lifters break on me and decided to go with the MRL lifters when some of my Dakota buddys swear by them. But what really convinced me was the awesome customer support I got from Mike at MRL. I bugged the crap out of him waiting on the new redesign offset pro plus lifters for SBM. I will be installing them here in the coming week putting my motor back together. I have a magnum block so I don't think I will have your issues but still following this thread as I have a 70 340 block waiting for a stroker build
2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: B G Racing]
#1630277
06/17/14 12:51 PM
06/17/14 12:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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Has anybody else restricted the oil going to the #2 and #4 cam bearings when using a fully grooved journal at those two locations. If so what size hole did you use?
69 Dart
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: onig]
#1630278
06/17/14 01:25 PM
06/17/14 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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I was looking at a SB and thinking about a few things and had some questions for people that have done the tube mod.
A) Does the pipe plug at the rear of the right galley need to be enlarged to 1/2" pipe as opposed to the 3/8" pipe that it currently uses? 5/8" is larger than the required hole size of 37/64" needed for a 3/8 NPT? I would think so.
B) At the front of the right galley the 19/32" plug will not be used again as it will be too small. Are people using a 5/8" plug or taping and threading it for 1/2 NPT.
C) If using a 1/2 NPT plug will it not block off the oil passage going to the #1 main bearing. Are people cutting the length of 1/2 NPT so as not to block off the passage, plus it also has to fit under the camshaft plate if I remember correctly.
D) The 5/8 reamer that is in the Mopar Kit for doing this tube mod; it will not fit into a 19/32 hole of the galley so are people drilling out to 5/8" and them reaming it to make the pipe fit? Or is the reamer tapered so as not to drill up, to make it fit.
I am real curious about this.
Thanks
69 Dart
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630279
06/17/14 02:05 PM
06/17/14 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
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Quote:
Quote:
There will be oil coming out the lifter rollers, its made to do that. All the engines I have built with these lifters do that, all of them. None of them have had low oil pressure. I do know that if you do have a grooved cam journal on #2 & #4 and you didnt restrict the oil coming up from the crank, its going to cause an issue. A slight drop in oil pressure is normal going to this style solid roller, maybe 5psi or so, but thats normal. If you only had 10-15psi to begin with, it may cause an issue at idle, but not off idle. If you replaced the oil pump and pressure spring with no change, then you are bleeding a TON of oil somewhere, and my guess is the cam bearings. I have seen this issue first hand before.
I was not directing this right at the owner of the engine but to all who are reading this post. Im just trying to shed some light on this. Its my product thats under attach by some and Im here to help answer some questions.
I only ever had 15 psi at hot idle last year when the car was REALLY HOT...as in it wanted to shut off from being so hot. However, cruising and WOT pressure was not effected by this. It was normally 20-25 psi last year.
I do have oil being restricted to my #1 and #3 cam bearings, but not to my #2 and #4. This is an LA motor, and as such, the rockers are fed from #2 and #4 cam bearings. I believe this cam also has full groove on the #2 and #4 journals. So is there even a safe way to limit the oil going through there since it is also supplying the rockers?
I definately do NOT consider 20-25 lbs. WOT hot good numbers............I had the same deal w/my Isky red-zones which Isky swore would work in my stock lifter bores and needless to say, they sent me their solid body versions,credited my card and paid for my new p-rods and I got a HUGH sorry and a couple of t-shirts.......... You had issues before that need to be adressed................
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1630280
06/17/14 05:15 PM
06/17/14 05:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
There will be oil coming out the lifter rollers, its made to do that. All the engines I have built with these lifters do that, all of them. None of them have had low oil pressure. I do know that if you do have a grooved cam journal on #2 & #4 and you didnt restrict the oil coming up from the crank, its going to cause an issue. A slight drop in oil pressure is normal going to this style solid roller, maybe 5psi or so, but thats normal. If you only had 10-15psi to begin with, it may cause an issue at idle, but not off idle. If you replaced the oil pump and pressure spring with no change, then you are bleeding a TON of oil somewhere, and my guess is the cam bearings. I have seen this issue first hand before.
I was not directing this right at the owner of the engine but to all who are reading this post. Im just trying to shed some light on this. Its my product thats under attach by some and Im here to help answer some questions.
I only ever had 15 psi at hot idle last year when the car was REALLY HOT...as in it wanted to shut off from being so hot. However, cruising and WOT pressure was not effected by this. It was normally 20-25 psi last year.
I do have oil being restricted to my #1 and #3 cam bearings, but not to my #2 and #4. This is an LA motor, and as such, the rockers are fed from #2 and #4 cam bearings. I believe this cam also has full groove on the #2 and #4 journals. So is there even a safe way to limit the oil going through there since it is also supplying the rockers?
I definately do NOT consider 20-25 lbs. WOT hot good numbers............I had the same deal w/my Isky red-zones which Isky swore would work in my stock lifter bores and needless to say, they sent me their solid body versions,credited my card and paid for my new p-rods and I got a HUGH sorry and a couple of t-shirts.......... You had issues before that need to be adressed................
I wouldn't even run a race motor with that kind of pressure.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630281
06/17/14 06:10 PM
06/17/14 06:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
There will be oil coming out the lifter rollers, its made to do that. All the engines I have built with these lifters do that, all of them. None of them have had low oil pressure. I do know that if you do have a grooved cam journal on #2 & #4 and you didnt restrict the oil coming up from the crank, its going to cause an issue. A slight drop in oil pressure is normal going to this style solid roller, maybe 5psi or so, but thats normal. If you only had 10-15psi to begin with, it may cause an issue at idle, but not off idle. If you replaced the oil pump and pressure spring with no change, then you are bleeding a TON of oil somewhere, and my guess is the cam bearings. I have seen this issue first hand before.
I was not directing this right at the owner of the engine but to all who are reading this post. Im just trying to shed some light on this. Its my product thats under attach by some and Im here to help answer some questions.
I only ever had 15 psi at hot idle last year when the car was REALLY HOT...as in it wanted to shut off from being so hot. However, cruising and WOT pressure was not effected by this. It was normally 20-25 psi last year.
I do have oil being restricted to my #1 and #3 cam bearings, but not to my #2 and #4. This is an LA motor, and as such, the rockers are fed from #2 and #4 cam bearings. I believe this cam also has full groove on the #2 and #4 journals. So is there even a safe way to limit the oil going through there since it is also supplying the rockers?
I definately do NOT consider 20-25 lbs. WOT hot good numbers............I had the same deal w/my Isky red-zones which Isky swore would work in my stock lifter bores and needless to say, they sent me their solid body versions,credited my card and paid for my new p-rods and I got a HUGH sorry and a couple of t-shirts.......... You had issues before that need to be adressed................
I wouldn't even run a race motor with that kind of pressure.
I know this thread is ALOT to follow through, but come on fellas- 25 psi HOT at WOT??? Is that really how it read? I am referring to HOT idle...I have stated that more then once in this thread, even in the original post if I am not mistaken....to think I would have started a thread that I felt 12 psi at idle hot is too low but then I ran a motor at WOT at only 25 psi last year???? really???
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: onig]
#1630283
06/17/14 06:21 PM
06/17/14 06:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
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Quote:
I was looking at a SB and thinking about a few things and had some questions for people that have done the tube mod.
A) Does the pipe plug at the rear of the right galley need to be enlarged to 1/2" pipe as opposed to the 3/8" pipe that it currently uses? 5/8" is larger than the required hole size of 37/64" needed for a 3/8 NPT? I would think so.
B) At the front of the right galley the 19/32" plug will not be used again as it will be too small. Are people using a 5/8" plug or taping and threading it for 1/2 NPT.
C) If using a 1/2 NPT plug will it not block off the oil passage going to the #1 main bearing. Are people cutting the length of 1/2 NPT so as not to block off the passage, plus it also has to fit under the camshaft plate if I remember correctly.
D) The 5/8 reamer that is in the Mopar Kit for doing this tube mod; it will not fit into a 19/32 hole of the galley so are people drilling out to 5/8" and them reaming it to make the pipe fit? Or is the reamer tapered so as not to drill up, to make it fit.
I am real curious about this.
Thanks
A.Yes B.1/2 NPT C. You would have to buy a very long plug to block No.1 main. D. I used a 10" 5/8 drill bit and just installed the pipe after drilling from both ends.-Randy
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630284
06/17/14 06:36 PM
06/17/14 06:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
whats your point, we are just trying to help. don't get your panties in a wad
At this point if anyone is going to offer advice, they would need to read through the thread...where I mentioned more then once that I had 20-25 psi HOT idle oil pressure last year, not 25 psi hot WOT oil pressure....I would need a horse shoe up my ass for my engine to have lasted even 10 passes like that I would imagine.
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: onig]
#1630285
06/17/14 06:45 PM
06/17/14 06:45 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 46
North
Dodgenu
member
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member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 46
North
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Quote:
In the past few years I have come across engines that the cam was tight. The latest was a Pontiac 400 engine. The cam was tight with new bearings. Called some machine shops and they told me to clearance the bearings. They also said that this is now a common issue and run into it quite frequently. The machine shop uses an old cam with grooves cut into the bearing journals to clearance the bearings. The shop actually had two cams likes this and gave me one to keep and use to clearance my bearings. I suppose the most correct way would be to align hone the cam bores and fit oversize bearings in it. I have never heard of oversize cam bearings, they may be out there but have not seen them. I would sooner clearance the cam bearings to allow the cam to spin freely as the bearings are the sacrificial wear members and the least costly. If the cam journals are machined down to fit nicely, that cam is now junk if one would want to use it in another block or sell it. Roller camshafts are not cheap.
"Only on MOPARTS people say to do this clearance trick to the bearings, WTF?" Ahh NO! Looking on the biggest drag racing forum on the Net, YB, and guys will tell you to do the same thing, with all makes, not just Mopars. Dodgenu, you actually said to do essentially the same thing with the scothbrite pad to the bearings and then go a step further to message the cam journals. Like I said I don't agree on the journal part, one little srew-up and theirs no turning back. Cam bearings are only $30 buck a set.
I don't feel that members need to be bashed or criticized for asking questions or doing certain things. Not everybody on this forum is at the same level with experience. This is why we are here, to learn and help out others. We need to give credit to the guys that want to do it them selves. Weather it is to learn, save money, or getting the satisfaction of having done it. Some people just have a machine shop do all the work and not look back. I am sure that most of us do this for a hobby. I am sure that most of us do not have the expensive machines to perform all engine building tasks and only send out what we can't do in our garage. I will never blame a man for trying, as long as he is trying to do the job to the best of his abilities with what he has.
Back on topic, lets try and help out the OP. This is interesting and I am learning as well.
Try to help out? Where is this last post of your were you giving advice to the Op? So STFU, Noone is bashing and I did not say to put a Rolok pad on a grinder and run it through the cam bearings did I. Agree to disagree but my way is the way the top engine builders do it, and who cares about abunch of yahoos on Yellow Bullet.Call Steve Schmidt or another real engine builder and ask what they do.. I gave some good advice so use it or don't because it don't really care. There is a reason why my car runs so good campared to most the 408 stroker motors that are running today. Good luck
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1630287
06/17/14 06:52 PM
06/17/14 06:52 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
whats your point, we are just trying to help. don't get your panties in a wad
At this point if anyone is going to offer advice, they would need to read through the thread...where I mentioned more then once that I had 20-25 psi HOT idle oil pressure last year, not 25 psi hot WOT oil pressure....I would need a horse shoe up my ass for my engine to have lasted even 10 passes like that I would imagine.
#1, sorry, I read it wrong #2, sorry I`m not as perfect as you.............. 
Whatever dude...
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: onig]
#1630291
06/17/14 08:46 PM
06/17/14 08:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
C) If using a 1/2 NPT plug will it not block off the oil passage going to the #1 main bearing. Are people cutting the length of 1/2 NPT so as not to block off the passage, plus it also has to fit under the camshaft plate if I remember correctly.
C. You would have to buy a very long plug to block No.1 main. Randy
Randy, thanks so much for the reply I appreciate it.
In regards to the question C); I will have to double check but, from memory, the feed hole from the galley to #1 main is like 3/8" to 1/2" from the front of the block.
From what I remember about that plug, what I did was I only threaded the galley until it was before the oil hole. I got an allen type plug that had a very deep allen key. I ground the plug down from the front until it was just deep enough to reach the end of the threads which was before the oil passage. It sealed up just fine, I have had no leaks from any of the plugs-Randy
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: b1dartsport]
#1630292
06/18/14 12:32 AM
06/18/14 12:32 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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Hey Randy.
I was thinking of the same thing, to shorten the length of the plug so it would not cover the feed hole.
69 Dart
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: onig]
#1630293
06/18/14 11:41 AM
06/18/14 11:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
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Hey guys the bickering back and forth is ruining a good thread. Remember we are trying to help a fellow mopar guy and learn new stuff that others may not know. I have learned a lot from this thread about small block mopar oil system upgrades and tricks. Good luck to the OP of this thread and I can tell you are discouraged and don't blame you, just remember we are here to help you out bud
2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: mshred]
#1630296
06/19/14 12:54 AM
06/19/14 12:54 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I would try to get to the bottom of the tight cam bearing deal first.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Low oil pressure with 360-2 heads and MRL lifters
[Re: Quicktree]
#1630300
06/19/14 01:25 PM
06/19/14 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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Restricting oil to the cam bearings is not a problem. If restricting oil to #2 & #4 cam bearings, then the oil going to the heads will also be restricted. Having a good amount of oil up top is good to help cool the valve train and springs, as long as the oil does not sit there and take away from your capacity. Looking at those -2 heads it does not look like a lot of oil will sit there for too long, which is good.
Another idea that was mentioned to me was to reposition the #2 & #4 cam bearings so the oil holes do not line up, essentially blocking oil going to the heads. In this situation you will have to drill from the mains to the bearings to allow oil to reach the cam bearings. Then a line would have to be installed from an oil galley to feed the passage that goes to the head, so as to oil the top end. This plumbing is done in the block not the head. This is how it was explained to me from a friend of mine. Sounds like it should work.
Has anybody tried this?? Let us know.
69 Dart
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