Need help with fuel delivery system
#1610186
04/21/14 10:42 AM
04/21/14 10:42 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,377
Back In Iowa
belv2vert66
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,377
Back In Iowa
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Picked up my 408 from Shady Dell Friday and was reminded that I have no fuel pump eccentric. So I need to design and install an electric fuel pump system. A look on line pretty much so confused me with all the choices. The motor made 498 HP and 520 TQ. The car is a 66 dart that sees quite a few street miles and the track as well. Luckily I have a 3/8 sending unit and 3/8 stainless steel factory style line from the sending unit forward. I want the system to be trouble free and as un obtrusive to the look of the car as possible (think sleeper)But, if it means doing it "right" I can live with the look. I really want to avoid the line coming to the passenger side fender well with a regulator and 2 3 foot braided steel lines looping around to the carb. I am sure it works awesome but not the look I am after. My questions are: Can I use the 3/8 sending unit as my pick up and avoid welding in a sump? I read the install instructions for several pumps and it says to mount it lower than the tank. Yet tons of pictures I see on line clearly show the pump above the tank. I have seen a lot of pics where there is a factory tank with a rear sump welded in and the pump mounted on the rear frame rail above the sump ? What is possible here ? Do I need a return line from the regulator. I see Holley makes a black pump that makes less noise and will run cooler. Does it work well ? Or is it hype ? I don't want to have any issues with vapor lock. Ideally I would like to use the factory pick up in the sending unit. Run the Holley Black pump. No return line, plumb the regulator in right by the carb as part of it's inlet. Am I crazy ? 
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Re: Need help with fuel delivery system
[Re: belv2vert66]
#1610187
04/21/14 12:02 PM
04/21/14 12:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Picked up my 408 from Shady Dell Friday and was reminded that I have no fuel pump eccentric. So I need to design and install an electric fuel pump system. A look on line pretty much so confused me with all the choices. The motor made 498 HP and 520 TQ. The car is a 66 dart that sees quite a few street miles and the track as well. Luckily I have a 3/8 sending unit and 3/8 stainless steel factory style line from the sending unit forward. I want the system to be trouble free and as un obtrusive to the look of the car as possible (think sleeper)But, if it means doing it "right" I can live with the look. I really want to avoid the line coming to the passenger side fender well with a regulator and 2 3 foot braided steel lines looping around to the carb. I am sure it works awesome but not the look I am after. My questions are:
Can I use the 3/8 sending unit as my pick up and avoid welding in a sump?
I read the install instructions for several pumps and it says to mount it lower than the tank. Yet tons of pictures I see on line clearly show the pump above the tank. I have seen a lot of pics where there is a factory tank with a rear sump welded in and the pump mounted on the rear frame rail above the sump ? What is possible here ?
Do I need a return line from the regulator. I see Holley makes a black pump that makes less noise and will run cooler. Does it work well ? Or is it hype ? I don't want to have any issues with vapor lock.
Ideally I would like to use the factory pick up in the sending unit. Run the Holley Black pump. No return line, plumb the regulator in right by the carb as part of it's inlet. Am I crazy ?
All good questions and you will find lot's of people who have done it wrong and will say it's fine when it's not when the weather get's hot. You will shorten the life of the pump if you cause it to cavatate by restricting the inlet by trying to get the pump to suck up hill and a 3/8" OD pickup is not big enough to supply enough fuel to prevent cavation with a electric performance fuel pump.
The warmer it is, the harder it is to suck gas. Do you want to worry about that during the summer when we drive our cars?
That's because gas will vaporize real easy under vacuum(suction) with a electric hi performance pump. Your electric fuel pump can not suck vapor, not at all.
Yes the pump must be gravity fed, that means the stock 3/8" pickup is not good or OK in hot weather. You need a sump, I know what a PIA.
And yes you need a return with a electric pump especially in hot weather.
Too bad you don't have a eccentric, it would make it so much cheaper and easier for you to use a mechanical pump and not have to modify your stock tank. Yes a mechanical pump would keep up with your motor.
Good luck, good for you for asking.
Fuel transfer is a black art that few understand. The really fast guys figure it out by the school of hard knocks most of the time.
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Re: Need help with fuel delivery system
[Re: belv2vert66]
#1610188
04/21/14 12:33 PM
04/21/14 12:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Lots of ways to go at that HP level. Your existing 3/8" line will work. So will a dead head system ( no return line ). I prefer gearotor style pumps. Mounting doesn't have to be below the tank pickup, but should be as low as practical for street operation - and rubber isolated for noise. Pump should have an internal bypass if you run a dead head system. Fuel line should be as far away as possible from any heat sources in the engine compt. area. You should run pre and post filters, but just a post filter will be ok if you know your tank is clean. Pre filter can be a cleanable screen type while the post filter can be a replaceable type. a QUALITY pressure reg. is a good idea - again mounted away from heat sources ( along with the post filter ). Right side fender well is the usual area. The system ( at your HP level ) should be able to fill a 1 gallon gas can in about 30 seconds. If you live in a very hot area, or you have a lot of under hood heat to contend with, a return style fuel system might be a consideration. Good luck building your system.
Fastest 300
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Re: Need help with fuel delivery system
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1610193
04/21/14 10:49 PM
04/21/14 10:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for the ideas guys ! Keep em coming.
Hughes engines cam extension so you can run a regular mech pump/LA timing cover for the pump to mount.(cheap/easy/trouble free)
This sounds like something to consider. 
Sure you can drag race them all day long and even drive them to and from the strip with a electric pump sucking through the stock pickup? But have you ever really driven them during the summer for extended period of time?
A holley blue pump won't suck through a 3/8" pickup all day long on a hot day and not give you any trouble deadheaded! Especially if you live at higher altitudes.
Most times when you think the problem is up front with boiling fuel, it is in back in the rear at the inlet of the electric pump when it's not gravity fed.
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Re: Need help with fuel delivery system
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1610195
04/22/14 11:10 PM
04/22/14 11:10 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,377
Back In Iowa
belv2vert66
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,377
Back In Iowa
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for the ideas guys ! Keep em coming.
Hughes engines cam extension so you can run a regular mech pump/LA timing cover for the pump to mount.(cheap/easy/trouble free)
I wondered about this. I am already running the early timing cover and tab cause of my Radiator inlets and outlets, pulleys and all that. I just figured it was time to upgrade. I am really considering this after looking at the cost and appearance of the electric system and return line. Wish I would have thought of it when the engine was being assembled ! Of course everything is dry as abone coming off the dyno. No leaks !
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Re: Need help with fuel delivery system
[Re: Tommy D]
#1610198
04/25/14 11:25 AM
04/25/14 11:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
meepmeep70
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
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Quote:
I run this combo in my street car and ran it in our 10.80 ET N/SS car for some time. It was suggested to me by a well-known class racer, and I was told it's good to 10.0's or so. I run a small Carter electric pump (through the 3/8" line). The pump is mounted inside the axle hump, and is out of sight. This combo also uses a small Carter (40 gal per hour) mechanical pump. On the street car, i use only the mechanical pump to drive around town or to shows. I have a toggle for the electric pump which is needed when making all out drag strip passes or pulling a hill. The street car went 11.17 @122.2MPH whith this set up. It's cheap. I've had this system in the car for well over ten years, and I've had no problems. Everyone I tell says it won't work. T
 ,so can run both?? interesting,hit the electric when needed?
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Re: Need help with fuel delivery system
[Re: Tommy D]
#1610199
04/25/14 11:31 AM
04/25/14 11:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
I run this combo in my street car and ran it in our 10.80 ET N/SS car for some time. It was suggested to me by a well-known class racer, and I was told it's good to 10.0's or so. I run a small Carter electric pump (through the 3/8" line). The pump is mounted inside the axle hump, and is out of sight. This combo also uses a small Carter (40 gal per hour) mechanical pump. On the street car, i use only the mechanical pump to drive around town or to shows. I have a toggle for the electric pump which is needed when making all out drag strip passes or pulling a hill. The street car went 11.17 @122.2MPH whith this set up. It's cheap. I've had this system in the car for well over ten years, and I've had no problems. Everyone I tell says it won't work. T
That carter pump will allow suck through unlike other pumps and is a street pump not a hi performance hi volume pump.
But why use both? A regular mechanical pump will do the job just fine without a electric pump. If the mechanical pump fails, you could fill the crankcase with gasoline using a electric like that.
But by waiting to turn it on like going up a hill, you run the risk of running your motor lean and it can hurt it. It don't take much to hurt them when it's lean when running out of gas under load.
And 10 seconds is fast, but almost any pump can keep up with a 10 second car. So just because your car runs 10s don't mean your fuel system is up to snuff. Talk to a low 9 or 8 second car owner, they know how to move fuel.
Since it works for you... 
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Re: Need help with fuel delivery system
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1610200
04/25/14 05:10 PM
04/25/14 05:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
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If you are racing the car regularly, I would install a cell and 140gph pump with good flowing pre filter and -8 line. If you are a twice a year racer and care more about stock practicality, I would be willing to bet the Holley red pump would work for you with the 3/8 line and stock sender, without a return, regulator or sump.
2 kids and a dog
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) I forgot and the tank was 1/2 full and in second gear it uncovered the pickup due to fuel slosh while making a pass and stumbled badly... Back out of it.... Would run fine again....made me a big believer in fuel cells for racing.... But at that power level with the tank topped off I never had an issue
