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Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571903
02/02/14 04:24 AM
02/02/14 04:24 AM
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Phoenix, AZ
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The Valiant still found it difficult to stay in the tens at altitude and during hot weather, and this was frustrating when it was counted on as a back-up Super Street Car. But all that changed at the Vegas Divisional Finals in '08. I was running the Challenger with a borrowed engine, and my buddy put the Valiant in the wall at the top end. That ended the Valiant's career as a borrowed out racecar, and ended my involvement in NHRA SST all in one bad day at the track.

8022569-val01.JPG (321 downloads)

"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571904
02/02/14 04:32 AM
02/02/14 04:32 AM
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A year was spent repairing the car, and converting it to street use, that lasted exactly 1/2 of a pass, as the driveshaft collapsed in the middle, taking out the floorpan, and the 904. Tell me again why I like this car, and continue to throw money at it?

8022573-101_0697.JPG (322 downloads)

"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571905
02/02/14 05:05 AM
02/02/14 05:05 AM
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Then came the 2 well documented years of Drag Week, which were an absolute blast, but the old engine was down on power, running hot on the street, and using oil. Then the ancient ported stock heads started sucking water.

That pretty much gives you the DNA of the car, now I'll briefly cover mine. I'm a very typical Mopar guy, a follower and I'm not afraid to admit it. Every buck I spend on a car has to deliver results, and every part has to be reliable, so I tend to stick to the well beaten paths of success. I was consuming automotive literature before I had a driver's license. My very first purchase from Direct Connection/Mopar Performance was the 960+ page "India paper" behemoth "Mopar Bible" that I still have to this day.

My first 440 had Sealed Power flat tops, 284/484 purple shaft, Moroso deep pan, stock heads, Torker II and 750DP. I drove the Mopar stalwarts like Jim Pierce crazy at Mokan, constantly questioning not only what parts they used, but why. I was late to MSD, Aluminum Heads, Nitrous, etc. Chuck Senatore's prolific articles brought me up to speed on my second 440, and watching the KOS pioneers advanced my love of big plate systems.

I've never been one to fall for the "Trick of the week" marketing that the whole Chevy aftermarket seems to thrive on...even if some of those tricks have been around twenty years!


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571906
02/02/14 06:40 AM
02/02/14 06:40 AM
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That brings us to the engine in Brian's photos...finally!

As I began research into which direction I wanted to go, I laid out the parameters of what I wanted. The street conversion had entailed adding a little weight to the Valiant, as well as a milder gear (4.30 to 3.89), and a tighter, more efficient converter (8 inch J&W, 4200 behind the 3.79 stroke, and a pleasure on the street), So I wanted more torque. Going from the 3.79 to a 4 inch just really didn't seem to be enough to justify a new rotating assembly. Then I read Dave Verna's masterfully written and photographed "430 inch small block build" on Moparts, and found a path I could definitely follow!
Weeks later I told my brother Dale, who owed me money from a car of mine he had sold, "Why don't you just call Rod at BPE and tell him I want the DJVCuda rotating assembly, in a 4.070 bore". Dave's engine had cranked out 627HP at 6500, and 560 ft/lbs of torque at 5000. Numbers I'd definitely be happy with except for a few caveats. The MCH Eddies and the roller cam. My X block has solid lifter bore bushings, and I want to stay with a flat tappet cam, also I felt that the Eddies are just a little small for this kind of engine.

As I knocked around ideas for a top end, researching the W and Indy stuff, Bryce Mulvey published his "new Airwolf 220 tested on a pump gas 408" thread on Moparts. While ordinarily the Word "New" would have scared me off immediately, I was intrigued with the build, the 633 HP at 6500, and 562 ft/lbs of torque at 5000 definitely caught my eye. Once again the presence of a healthy roller cam gave me rise to be cautious, but I began to think, with the Airwolf heads, on a BPE 428 shortblock, could I get comparable numbers with less cam?

I finally got Bryce on the phone, and ordered the heads, along with a beehive spring upgrade for the 3 steps bigger Hughes flat tappet I had in mind.

While I waited for my parts, I took the block to a co-worker who does machine work part time in his garage and had him bore and deck the block. Then I went to Drag Week 2013 with my beater 66 Satellite while I waited on the parts even longer!


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571907
02/02/14 10:52 AM
02/02/14 10:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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Truckville, the capital of NY
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Billy, your prolific tales of life as a Mopar guy are simply grand. You have a knack for writing and entertain us thourghly. As always I look forward to more---and thanks for keeping us snowbirds a little distracted in this stir crazy time of year.


Outcast Dodge guy.
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: 85_Ram_4speed] #1571908
02/02/14 01:28 PM
02/02/14 01:28 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Al and Matt,
I haven't seen Neil in a while, after he finally got that coveted National Event Wally in 2001, his participation fell off dramatically.

Rod,
Watching you and Ray playing with the Gen 3 Hemi makes me wonder if it is money well spent, I guess time, or time slips will tell.

Mike,
Our DW14 plans are still very much in the air, but I definitely intend to bring the Valiant, and most likely the Belvedere. Like Don say's we still have 219 days, so no use getting it figured out yet!

Jay and Bill,
Try to enjoy the ride...it may get bumpy from time to time.

Robert,
Hope the wrenching on the Barracuda is going well, and hope your ears weren't burning too much while I was visiting Brian in Indio!

Chad,
Thanks for the compliment, and for checking in.

John,
Yep, Dr. J's heads (Airwolf 220), an SV, and a flat tappet cam, some guys just have a knack for leaving HP on the table, I can't help myself!

Where the heck is Wize? Somebody go check under the Rocky and make sure he is OK!



Now let's crunch some numbers... no not the fun numbers, the not so fun numbers.

The BPE rotating assembly was 2306.75 to the door. Rod Bloomer was amazing to work with, and all the components were top notch.

The Dr. J's Performance Airwolf 220s were 2595.00 to the door with beehive springs. Bryce Mulvey was difficult to get in touch with, but all our correspondence was cordial and professional, the eventual 4 month wait time was agonizing, plan accordingly!

My co-worker gave me the block and a balanced rotating assembly back for 295.00.

So I'm sitting at (where's the calculator, my head hurts. My Wife and her lawyer aren't reading this thread are they?) roughly 5200, and I've still got a ways to go.

8022824-homework10001.JPG (313 downloads)

"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571909
02/02/14 01:47 PM
02/02/14 01:47 PM
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PA.
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I know Brian had to flow one of the heads before installation as I know I would have. How did they stack up? The reason i ask is Brices numbers on STOCK Edelbrocks seem a tad high so high starting numbers equals high finish numbers. Also I may have missed it but what lift cam are you going with and what ratio rocker? Good-luck this year.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571910
02/02/14 02:30 PM
02/02/14 02:30 PM
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Michigan
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You guys were a pleasure to deal with. Hope to see some dyno numbers soon, now you just need to buy my barracuda.

Rod

Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: BPE] #1571911
02/02/14 02:40 PM
02/02/14 02:40 PM
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Atco NJ
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Glad I could help with my very small part - Cant wait to hear the results & Good luck with DW!

Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: DJVCuda] #1571912
02/02/14 05:42 PM
02/02/14 05:42 PM
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At this point, I was sitting around contemplating my options. I could toss it on the engine stand in my carport, and assemble it using as many as the old components off the 389 as possible. This option would limit my cash outlay, but I've only screwed together 2 small blocks. The first was a 318 with new silvolite pistons, 360 heads and intake, and a little 268H cam. The wife sure was mad when that thing fired off, you see, it was for her 76 Volare Duster, and I had sworn it wasn't going to be a hotrod. I'd used the 268H in a 440, and it would idle at 800, but it sounded completely different in that 318! The second was the simple re-fresh of the Valiant's 389. I sat there and looked at those nearly jewel like Race-tec pistons, clutching my copy of Jim Szilagyi's "How to build Big Inch Mopar Small Blocks" tightly to my chest, and I came to the realization I was probably in over my head!

The second option was to seek out professional help. That meant a four hour drive to Indio California, a tank of diesel, and explaining to Brian why I just didn't put all this in his hands from the very beginning. What I would be doing was something closely resembling driving to a restaurant, setting my own bag of groceries down on the Chef's prep table, and telling him what I expected my meal to taste like! I could get thrown out on my head, with groceries to follow, I could get cursed at and have to deal with an angry chef, or he could smile, meet all my expectations, and then charge me more than if I'd just ordered off the menu. The initial phone inquiry went quite well, so I decided to load everything up and visit IMM.

8023353-homework10002.JPG (272 downloads)

"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571913
02/02/14 06:05 PM
02/02/14 06:05 PM
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Bowling Green, KY
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Your Valiant is sweet, Billy. I would like to find the same year in a Lancer to race.

Dennis

Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: cudaboy] #1571914
02/02/14 06:39 PM
02/02/14 06:39 PM
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Joplin, Mo
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Billy great story as always. Thanks for the kind words. I never realized I had that much info to offer. But appreciate your perspective. Jim

Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: rt66jim] #1571915
02/03/14 12:49 AM
02/03/14 12:49 AM
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I dropped everything off just before Christmas, and as expected, Brian was skeptical about some of the parts. We bantered back and forth about what I was looking for. Basically I told him I was looking for a 600+ HP tractor motor, that would put the Valiant solidly in the 10's, all the time, every time. Something I could drive on pump gas, but I would probably race on good gas. When talk came around to cam choice, and final compression ratio, he gave me an earnest look and asked, "Do you trust me?" He followed that up with wry smile and a quick, "And you KNOW I don't do tractor motors!"

And yes John, I could tell by the way he was eying the Airwolfs that one would be on his bench before I made it back to the AZ border...

A couple of days later, I received a detailed E-mail estimate for 4K+. I fired back an indignant response, questioning why he was condemning all my parts, and charging me such exorbitant labor rates. The next e-mail he sent me was all very measured responses, typed in red. I felt a pang of remorse for picking on him, as he had obviously missed the joke...but, it was fleeting. I really like Brian, and the one's I really like, get it the worst!

Last week, when he called to arrange the dyno session and pick up of the finished product, it was his turn to get a few digs in. "You know those heads didn't flow as well as Bryce claimed, right?"
"Yeah, Brian, I'm not surprised, I considered the numbers optimistic all along. The port volume, and the dyno numbers were factors in the purchase as well". I had to shoot him down quick before he got rolling, kinda like the guy at work who asks If that was your wife he saw at the club last night. You want to know, but you don't want to let him get under your skin, so you just roll with it!


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571916
02/03/14 01:18 AM
02/03/14 01:18 AM
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I know Brian would have some sleepless nights if he didn't check a port on his bench. The primary reason I give before and after numbers is to show a customer CFM gain. When someone tells me an Edelbrock head flows 260cfm stock I know for a fact that bench needs calibrated. From what I have seen 243 seems to be a real common stock max flow out of an Edelbrock head. With a lot of work and a 2.08 valve they can reach over 310 but if I remember right even Brian says " you better check each port" as you are walking a very thin line. You can only get so much area without moving the pinch over and going with an off-set rocker. I want to play with a set to see how much can be gained with supposedly less water in the floor. Not the best place to gain area but where else can you go. My Friend dropped off his Indy intake today so I can test it on my head. On the set I ported for him the extra port volume in it actually raised his head flow instead of hurting it a little like most intakes do.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: pittsburghracer] #1571917
02/03/14 01:48 AM
02/03/14 01:48 AM
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SoCal
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Billy, should I post the graph up?


Brian Hafliger
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1571918
02/03/14 02:03 AM
02/03/14 02:03 AM
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Hilltown Pa
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Great to read another story by you. Hope to one day meet you in person at drag week.


Brett Miller W9 cnc'd heads
STR Chassis fabraction
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571919
02/03/14 02:03 AM
02/03/14 02:03 AM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Cam choice:
Had I ordered the cam previously, I would have went with the Hughes HTL6468AS, 264/268 @.050 and .594/.611 lift with the 1.5 rockers. I would have had it ground on a 110.

My brother Dale was lobbying for the Howards 710782-06 grind with 264/268 @.050 and 632/643 lift. Out of the box this comes on a 106, so that wouldn't have worked.

But, it was up to Brian, and since he knew this thing would see serious street miles, had no oil at the lifter galley, and tied to the already purchased beehive springs, he decided to go conservative on the ramps. His choice was a comp flat tappet, 269/275 @.050, and 600/601 lift on a 111 Lobe separation.

The other parts Brian was left to procure were a new oil pump and shaft, billet roller timing chain set, .045 Cometics along with all the other gaskets, Manton 11/32 pushrods, SFI Balancer, and a SuperVictor intake. He re-used my Crane gold 1.5 rockers.

11.1 to 1 static compression, 175 psi cranking. 33 degrees total timing. IMM's shop 1000HP Holley with 82/90 and front PV only, and IMM shop 1 7/8 to 3" TTI headers through mufflers.

I think I've covered all the pertinent info..,I never have been a dyno flog guy, just always struck me as engine torture, so despite Brian's willingness to spend all day trying different things, I wasn't interested in going after a glory sheet. We tried more timing, it didn't like it, we tried tighter lash, didn't like it. The 5 good pulls were all within about 10hp of each other, and that was good enough for me.

The Basic numbers
RPM Torque HP
4200 507 405
4400 524 439
4600 537 470
4800 545 498
4900 547 510
5000 546 520
5200 542 536
5400 540 555
5600 535 570
5800 531 586
6000 525 600
6200 518 611
6300 512 614
6400 504 615
6500 498 616

Coming from a guy who say's he doesn't build tractor motors, a torque curve above 500 from 4200 to 6400 thrills me to no end. We pulled it to 6700 later and it lost 1 HP at 6600 and 1 HP at 6700, so 6500 was the true peak.


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1571920
02/03/14 02:05 AM
02/03/14 02:05 AM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:

Billy, should I post the graph up?




Geez Brian, wish I would've read that before I typed all that out!


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571921
02/03/14 02:15 AM
02/03/14 02:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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Romeo MI
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Quote:

Quote:

Billy, should I post the graph up?




Geez Brian, wish I would've read that before I typed all that out!




So Billy... with the 616 hp and the torque it made..
what do you or Brian figure it'll run.. I dont know
the weight of the car at race weight

Re: Drag Week 62 Valiant's Small Block is finally ready! [Re: MoparBilly] #1571922
02/03/14 02:18 AM
02/03/14 02:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,162
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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Nice job.!!!!!!!! Isn't it great that we can take parts like this and make very nice HP at lower RPM's and not have to beat the piss out of everything.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




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