Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
#1540304
11/26/13 11:21 PM
11/26/13 11:21 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245 Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
|
Car started slowing down and then at a test night recently we broke a valve spring (no other damage), so after 200+ runs we knew it was time for a freshen...
Rod bearings on #1 #2 #3 and #5 were trashed...down to the copper in many places and had been hot enough to color the rod caps and the crank journals that lovely shade of blue/black/brown.
Here's the odd part: #4 #6 #7 #8 rod bearings looked very good for the amount of time we had on the thing, actually looking almost new!
Bearing clearance was all set at .0028, done by a VERY competent machine shop (and re-checked twice when I assembled it, and NOT with plastic gauge...lol!) and it ran good enough go a best of 10.14 @ 128. Looking back at the log books, at one point last year we made 68 straight laps between 10.22 and 10.28, so for a long time she was very healthy.
We did run a high volume pump, and with Valvoline race oil 20/50 it would show oil pressure well past 100# on cold start up and 80# warm in gear. Driver was telling me the gauge was in excess off 100# through the lights. After dwelling on this for quite some time (maybe too long?) we changed to a lighter oil (10/30) and that did knock some pressure off, but we were still over 90# cold and nearly 100# at the stripe.
I'm wondering if the excess pressure was the cause with those rod journals not "seeing" enough oil, or something else. If so, why only those rods I mentioned?
OR, was there oiling systems mods that I should have considered? I ask that because when I tore down the 300+ run 340 that was in the car prior, Rod bearings #1 #2 and #3 had MUCH more wear than all of the others.
Discuss...
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: jeff1974]
#1540306
11/27/13 12:43 AM
11/27/13 12:43 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245 Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
|
Quote:
Doug...according to all old reference material I have, you must do the oiling mod to slow the oil delivery down the left side oil galley by plugging it at the front of the block and using a Cross over pipe from the rear of the left galley by the passage that feeds up to the rockers to the right side galley by the front passage to the right side rockers. This mod slows the oil delivery down the left galley, increasing the pressure to the mains and prevents the bearing starvation symptoms you have described.
Huh. Who knew?? This is what happens when a "big block" guy build his first small block...
One question though: If that is the case (oil starvation to the DS of the motor) then why would #1 AND #2 have the same issue??
Does anyone have pics of the mods mentioned above??
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: cudadoug]
#1540307
11/27/13 12:53 AM
11/27/13 12:53 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 152 Illinois, USA
jeff1974
member
|
member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 152
Illinois, USA
|
I have a beautiful diagram of the mod I described along with the relevant text, if you pm me your email address I'd be happy to copy it from an old book I got back in the mid seventies called the smallblock Mopar hand book. Excellent reference guide for the time it was published.
Last edited by jeff1974; 11/27/13 08:27 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: jeff1974]
#1540312
11/27/13 03:21 AM
11/27/13 03:21 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245 Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
|
Quote:
I have a beautiful diagram of the mod I described along with the relevant text, if you pm me your email address I'd be happy to copy it from an old book I got back in the mid seventies called the smallblock Mopar hand book. Excellent teference guide for the time it was published.
THANK YOU!! email me at dmayle@pac-trans.com
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: cudadoug]
#1540313
11/27/13 09:52 AM
11/27/13 09:52 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,647 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
|
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,647
in a cattle trailer down by th...
|
Unless you are pushrod oiling or running a juice lifter you can just block the oil to the left side lifter galley at the #1 main.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion. 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: b1dartsport]
#1540316
11/27/13 04:35 PM
11/27/13 04:35 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
You should buy the drill bits from good tool supply --I forget now but I think the point angle is different and the flutes are like 120 degrees??There is a trick to the bit so it will do that specific job right. I have some of the bits and just can't remember what Herb told me before I bought them way years ago but that needs to be looked into. The other thing Herb figured out was that Melling drilled the hole for the relief valve to shallow by .100 so it acted the same as shimming the thing up thus the monster pressure--use a std volume on SB and you never have issues. I had an original S&M 10-12 qt off one of the small block cars and it used a std volume housing with Milodon extension and longer rotors ( I am guessing No longer made) we always use std volume on SB's to avoid that plus 100 lb deal
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: 65signet]
#1540320
11/27/13 05:44 PM
11/27/13 05:44 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
|
One of the things I find really interesting about this modification is that I've built literally 100's of small block stroker combo's over the years and none have this mod done to them. Noteworthy is that none of them exhibit unusual wear on the bearings, nor do they have unusually high oil pressure with a high volume pump. Of those engines, most see no more than 7800 rpm and many likely see only 72-7400 rpm at the stripe. I believe that mod may be more beneficial to the higher rpm combo's that may run in the 8000+ rpm range. I wouldn't tell anybody not to do it, but I do question if not doing that mod is the real problem with the OP's engine.
machine shop owner and engine builder
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: Performance Only]
#1540321
11/27/13 05:57 PM
11/27/13 05:57 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 152 Illinois, USA
jeff1974
member
|
member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 152
Illinois, USA
|
True that.. No telling if not having this done was the cause of the issues that developed in that engine. Just the description of the extreme oil pressure made me think the mod might help. Likely the clearances were tight and .003" might have helped with that super high pressure too. The oil doesn't want to make the turns down into the mains under that high of pressure and this mod is designed to help that issue.
Last edited by jeff1974; 11/27/13 08:31 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: jeff1974]
#1540322
11/27/13 09:26 PM
11/27/13 09:26 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,647 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
|
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,647
in a cattle trailer down by th...
|
Quote:
True that.. No telling if not having this done was the cause of the issues that developed in that engine. Just the description of the extreme oil pressure made me think the mod might help. Likely the clearances were tight and .003" might have helped with that super high pressure too. The oil doesn't want to make the turns down into the mains under that high of pressure and this mod is designed to help that issue.
If you can block the oil to the left galley then that tube mod would only introduce two moe 90* angles into the flow. Blocking the oil to the left lifter galley is the best thing to do in my opinion, that dead heads the #1 main feed right there so it's not feeding another large galley. The other mods mentioned in the link are very good to do also. Although I hadn't seen that before that was what I did with my engine.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion. 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
|
|
|
Re: Odd (mild damage) inside 416 stroker
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1540323
11/27/13 09:40 PM
11/27/13 09:40 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 152 Illinois, USA
jeff1974
member
|
member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 152
Illinois, USA
|
Indeed thats true, but with the modern profiles introduced for street/strip use with hydraulic rollers..this mod can be very beneficial. Not everyone wants or needs solid roller cams, or solid lifter setups. And, even if they do, this mod will work for them. So, it looks like a good idea for anyone not contemplating full competition setups, but still requiring dependable street/strip performance for the long term between teardowns and rebuilds.BTW those aren't 90 degree elbows for the crossover tube. More like 60*...
Last edited by jeff1974; 11/27/13 09:43 PM.
|
|
|
|
|