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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: MADMANMOPAR]
#15484
05/27/05 12:22 AM
05/27/05 12:22 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
TO THE DRIVER, STUMPY & AAR CUDA & 5537SG,
I AM THE GUILTY MOPARTS MEMBER THAT STARTED THIS 5 PAGE AND COUNTING THESIS ON THE EFFECTS OF REMOVING A POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE FROM A RUNNING CAR TO CHECK IF YOUR ALTENATOR WAS WORKING OR NOT... I KNOW IT WAS THE BACKYARD (NOT DEALER TRAINED) MECHANIC WAY TO TEST AN OLDER CARS ALTENATOR, BUT THE FACT IS PEOPLE WHO WORKED ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS HAVE DONE THIS PROBABLY MORE THAN ONCE WITHOUT A NUCLEAR REACTION HAPPENING.. I KNOW I HAVE DONE IT ON A COUPLE OF MY CARS WHICH WERE A 1969 AND 1971 YEARS (WITH POINT IGNITIONS) AND HAVE NOT HAD ANY OF THE SHORT OR LONG TERM ELECTRONIC FAILURES DESCRIBED..
TO 5537SG'S POINT(S) I REALIZE NEW CARS ARE ALOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN OUR OLDER MUSCLE CARS, HAVE MORE SENSITIVE ELECTRONICS AND REQUIRE ALOT MORE EDUCATION AND TOOLS TO FIX AND REMOVING THE POSITIVE CABLE IS NOT TO BE ATTEMPTED...AND I WILL USE A VOLTMETER NEXT TIME TO CHECK IF MY ALTENATOR IS WORKING OR NOT..JUST TO BE SAFE
BUT RIGHT OR WRONG, I AGREE WITH AARCUDA AND STUMPY WHEN THEY SAY IT WAS THE COMMON METHOD PERFORMED LOTS OF TIMES ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS WITHOUT CHERNOBAL TYPE MELTDOWNS.. I'VE SEEN IT DONE TOO MANY TIMES..
THE FACTS IN THIS THREAD CAN BE DEBATED, ARGUED ABOUT, CUSSED AT... BUT THAT WAS NOT THE INTENTION OF MY POST.. I WAS TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE GET HIS CAR GOING, NOT TO DAMAGE IT FURTHER.. SORRY IF MY BACKYARD WAYS CAUSED ANY ILL FEELINGS, BLOWN-UP RADIO'S, TACH'S OR THE CHINA SYNDROME..
GUESS I SHOULD OF KEPT MY 2 CENTS IN MY POCKET ON THIS SUBJECT..
theres nothing wrong with adding your 2 cents to this. I dont see how you could be the direct cause of this discusson, but that really doesnt matter. What matters is that people learn the correct way to solve their troubles. Teaching people the incorrect methods will not help them, and may also cause them some troubles that they didnt even know they instigated.
I agree with stumpy and aar cuda too, I never doubted the fact that many people did this to test their charging system. Im even guilty of it myself. The difference is, I had a failure, and it cost me $$$ So, being the type of guy I am, I researched why it happened. Ive since gone on to become a professional mechanic mostly because of my thirst for knowledge in this as a hobby.
But, just because we did it, and some got lucky, doesnt make it the right thing to do. I dont wish for anyone to have ill effects from bad or improper advice, so I think its best to intervene rather than sit back and watch.
In the discussion I offered several easy ways to confirm this, and offered easier solutions to diagnose these problems, the correct way. Regardless of what year the car is.
the only concern I have with your statement quoted above is that you claim the facts can be argued. I dont agree that facts can be argued. Aa fact is a fact. It is a fact that an alternator's voltage will build and build until it finds a way out. It will take out a diode usually in te rectifier which has limits. AARCUDA said so in his description of diodes. But I knew it long before.
If you have done this on Chrysler products, you have a much lesser chance of a failure because Chrysler has blessed us with overkill on most things they made. This includes an alternators ability to dissipate heat.
Typically the only thing to fail in the old chrysler round and square backs is the brushes wear down to nothing. They usually have some brush left, but the slip ring on the rotor actually wears out first by a hair. Most small shops dont bother rebuilding these because its cheaper for them to sell a replacement. These shops will also confirm that the Mopar alternators are the least common in their shops.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH A
[Re: BigTerry]
#15485
05/27/05 12:41 AM
05/27/05 12:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Hey guys the problem is the newer car electrical system if I understand correctly are what they call a CLOSED LOOP system where earlier cars had a openloop system. so when you unhook a new car battery while it running you taking a comoponet out of the circuit!! am I correct on this?? 
Open and closed loop refer to a state the vehicles electronic engine controls are operating in. In a nutshell, open loop means the car is running off pre-programmed parameters that would be close to ideal. They typically operate in open loop during warmup , which is basically until the oxygen sensor comes online. It might not allow the trans to shiift into overdrive etc.. Each manufacturer has different ideas.
Closed loop is when the computer will make appropriate changes to the operating parameters when the vehicle is warmed up and the oxygen sensor is sending logical information to the ecu.
When the O2 sensor reports logical information to the computer, it will adjust fuel injector pulse widths (amount of fuel the engine sees) to keep the vehicle operating close to ideal fuel/air ratios. That's what is called closed loop.
additionally, most cars are using heaters in the oxygen sensors to help get them online sooner. Also to cope with 02 sensors mounted downstream in the exhaust system (post catalytic converter) They may run too cold there.
keep in mind during all of this, an oxygen sensor may be reporting a signal thats "skewed" enough to change the ideal fuel mixture for the situation. The computer sees a signal thats relatively normal, and continues on like everything is fine. This is when things get harder to diagnose. Keep in mind, if the computer sees an illogical signal, that just cant make sense, it realizes this and turns on your check engine soon light. The computer saves this data, and in post 96 cars, saves a whole freeze frame of everything the computer is monitoring. Your speed, what gear youre in, how far the throttle was depressed etc..
Open and closed loop are not actually what we are discussing in this situation, but I hope that helps your understanding of it! I can get more in detail if you desire. 
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH A
[Re: 5537SG]
#15486
05/27/05 03:19 AM
05/27/05 03:19 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I'm late to the dance here but for what its worth I disconnect either battery terminal fairly frequently on my 84 GMC and my 77 Ramcharger and then start turning on all the accessorys til it dies to check its charging/output under load. Never had a problem. Had somebody cross the + and - on my old ladys car giving it a boast and that took out some diodes or something. Never a problem with disconnecting the battery, other than sometime I need to reprogram the radio. Im in my 40's and I just copied my dad. If I have a meter though I will use that instead, but more often than not I have a 1/2 wrench handy.
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