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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: LSP] #1518968
10/19/13 08:35 AM
10/19/13 08:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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RAMM  Offline OP
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Quote:

EMC builds are interesting, I think the SBC 23* valve placement isn't high enough either.

Anyone clue you in to what next years rules changes might be?




I do have an idea of where the rules will go for next year but I have been wrong before. That being said I am not afraid to continue with my "good" engine and develop it to its fullest. I plan on being a finalist with it next year provided the 4V's are ruled out. You guys will find it VERY interesting. I plan to make it the highest scoring inline valve Mopar EMC has ever seen. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: drifter] #1518969
10/19/13 08:41 AM
10/19/13 08:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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RAMM  Offline OP
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Quote:

I have spoken with Jesse many times on the phone this guy isn't afraid to think out of the box!Very honest no BS kinda guy. You guys did an awesome job and you should be proud!




Nice to see you on here Luke! I am proud of what this engine produced for what it really is. I was heartbroken when I had to pull the plug on our "good" engine. It was much, much better than this one from a peak power perspective and more importantly the average was better in 2 pulls. I was able to execute some of what we have talked about on the phone. Give me a call some time soon. Thanks for the B1 piston "schematic" J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518970
10/19/13 09:19 AM
10/19/13 09:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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RAMM  Offline OP
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Here's a shot of the engine that never made it. It featured MPI, crank trigger, Victor heads, ultra light internals etc.... J.Rob

7892885-EMC201475.jpg (95 downloads)

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518971
10/19/13 09:47 AM
10/19/13 09:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
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The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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Somebody asked to see a dyno sheet from UNOH. This was the very last pull. Wish we could've made 2 or 3 more. J.Rob

7892903-UNOH75.jpg (81 downloads)
Last edited by RAMM; 10/19/13 09:49 AM.

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518972
10/19/13 01:28 PM
10/19/13 01:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,162
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Offline
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PA.
Are you limited on what ring pac goes into each engine?


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: B3RE] #1518973
10/19/13 02:41 PM
10/19/13 02:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
B
BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
BradH  Offline
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B

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
Quote:

...
One question, what do you consider optimum adjuster angle?




Once again, two schools of thought:
1. Maintain same range of angle change in the relationship between the pushrod & the adjusting screw from min to max lift (e.g. 15 degrees "under" to 15 degrees "over") to put them both on parallel planes at the mid-lift. IIRC, that's Miller's design.

2. Start out w/ the most out-of-parallel condition when the valve is closed and have them both on parallel planes at the peak lift where the highest spring loading is. From some of what I've seen, this might be what Jesel is attempting, but I can't say for sure.

Without going into all sorts of different types of specific measurements (impact on peak lift, impact on area under lift curve, stresses on adjusting screws & pushrods, etc.), I really can't say which is mechanically "ideal".

Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: pittsburghracer] #1518974
10/19/13 03:31 PM
10/19/13 03:31 PM
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Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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RAMM  Offline OP
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Quote:

Are you limited on what ring pac goes into each engine?




The ring rule for this past year was "Must have 2 compression rings and 1 oil ring, also no thinner than .043" ring J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518975
10/19/13 03:48 PM
10/19/13 03:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
master
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Canada
Quote:

Here's a shot of the engine that never made it. It featured MPI, crank trigger, Victor heads, ultra light internals etc.... J.Rob




What do you think that beast would've made? Also how big is it?

Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: WO23Coronet] #1518976
10/19/13 09:08 PM
10/19/13 09:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
super stock
RAMM  Offline OP
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The Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

Here's a shot of the engine that never made it. It featured MPI, crank trigger, Victor heads, ultra light internals etc.... J.Rob




What do you think that beast would've made? Also how big is it?




It exceeded this 466 everywhere despite being smaller. I honestly could not believe how good it was. It made 1.48 lbs/cube! J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: BradH] #1518977
10/20/13 02:54 PM
10/20/13 02:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B
B3RE Offline
mopar
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mopar
B

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Posts: 561
USA
Quote:

Quote:

...
One question, what do you consider optimum adjuster angle?




Once again, two schools of thought:
1. Maintain same range of angle change in the relationship between the pushrod & the adjusting screw from min to max lift (e.g. 15 degrees "under" to 15 degrees "over") to put them both on parallel planes at the mid-lift. IIRC, that's Miller's design.

2. Start out w/ the most out-of-parallel condition when the valve is closed and have them both on parallel planes at the peak lift where the highest spring loading is. From some of what I've seen, this might be what Jesel is attempting, but I can't say for sure.

Without going into all sorts of different types of specific measurements (impact on peak lift, impact on area under lift curve, stresses on adjusting screws & pushrods, etc.), I really can't say which is mechanically "ideal".




My thinking is that the more angle the adjuster is on, the side loading forces are increased exponentially. Add to that that the pushrod is literally trying to shove the rocker body into the shaft and lift the shaft off of the head as the lifter starts up the opening ramps on the cam. I would think that would create more load on the adjuster than what would be present by splitting the sweep angle between over and under the parallel plane. Don't forget about the additional harmonics incuced by the increased lateral movement of the pushrod. Think pole vault.

Hmmmmmmm!


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: B3RE] #1518978
10/20/13 03:48 PM
10/20/13 03:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,129
Cleveland
sunroofgtx Offline
I Live Here
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Cleveland
Jesse !! Can't believe I just saw this. Thanks very much for trusting our Firecore50 Wires and Mechanical Distributor. Great job having a backup engine ready to go. Can't wait to read all about the sessions. Rick Gorski. Huge thanks out to Ron Wilson for bugging you to try our parts. Thank you.


Join the quickest team in motorsports. Team FireCore. CustomWiresets.com
Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: sunroofgtx] #1518979
10/20/13 09:39 PM
10/20/13 09:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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RAMM  Offline OP
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Quote:

Jesse !! Can't believe I just saw this. Thanks very much for trusting our Firecore50 Wires and Mechanical Distributor. Great job having a backup engine ready to go. Can't wait to read all about the sessions. Rick Gorski. Huge thanks out to Ron Wilson for bugging you to try our parts. Thank you.




No thankyou Rick! I don't know if you received the detailed email I sent you but we were fortunate enough to land a feature article! I am VERY pleased with the FireCore products. I had numerous inquiries about them at the EMC-I would imagine you will be getting called by some new customers soon.

For 2014 I plan to go COP for the EFI effort. You wouldn't happen to know someone that could hook us up for with those--Do you? J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518980
10/20/13 09:41 PM
10/20/13 09:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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Anyone interested in some IN-CELL dyno footage at the EMC? J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518981
10/20/13 10:16 PM
10/20/13 10:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee Offline
master
dannysbee  Offline
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Texas
That would be cool.


Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518982
10/21/13 10:53 AM
10/21/13 10:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
F
firefighter3931 Offline
top fuel
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top fuel
F

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Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
Quote:

Anyone interested in some IN-CELL dyno footage at the EMC? J.Rob




Does a Shark $hit in the ocean ?

Yes, we want some dyno clips !!!



Ron

Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: firefighter3931] #1518983
10/21/13 11:39 AM
10/21/13 11:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
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Quote:

Quote:

Anyone interested in some IN-CELL dyno footage at the EMC? J.Rob




Does a Shark $hit in the ocean ?

Yes, we want some dyno clips !!!



Ron





Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518984
10/22/13 12:50 AM
10/22/13 12:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,493
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote:

Quote:

What lifters did you end up using?




I wound up using Johnson/Hylift rollers in a short travel design. Joe Lewis is the guy to talk to there. Best lifter for the $$$ out there. J.Rob




how much plunger travel did those lifters have?

how much plunger travel did the original lifters have?

what style retaining clip were used in the Johnson style lifters?

any part number on the Johnson lifters?

since you said you used this cam in a previous build with solid lifters, i gather its a solid roller design lobe??

what lash did you run with the solid lifters?

when you had the stability issues, did you try the solid lifters before you had the Johnsons?

its interesting on the motor not liking any more cam advance than that.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: fast68plymouth] #1518985
10/22/13 09:19 AM
10/22/13 09:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What lifters did you end up using?




I wound up using Johnson/Hylift rollers in a short travel design. Joe Lewis is the guy to talk to there. Best lifter for the $$$ out there. J.Rob




how much plunger travel did those lifters have?

how much plunger travel did the original lifters have?

what style retaining clip were used in the Johnson style lifters?

any part number on the Johnson lifters?

since you said you used this cam in a previous build with solid lifters, i gather its a solid roller design lobe??

what lash did you run with the solid lifters?

when you had the stability issues, did you try the solid lifters before you had the Johnsons?

its interesting on the motor not liking any more cam advance than that.




1. Plunger travel on these were limited to .015"
2. Original lifters had .163" travel
3. The retaining clip is a very solid design. A picture is needed here.
4. Johnson part # was "Custom" on the box.
5. Yes it is a solid design roller lobe.
6. Solid lifters on this lobe were a tight lash design that called for .016"/.018"
7. No I did not try solid lifters first. I knew the lifters were the culprit because a successful pull to 7000rpm was made once with the full travels.
8. I was surprised too that advancing the cam did not help. Then again you can only close the valve so early before optimum cylinder filling occurs. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518986
10/22/13 09:46 PM
10/22/13 09:46 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 57
cedar rapids, iowa
S
superhog88 Offline
member
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cedar rapids, iowa
i am assuming that wthh the moving of the cylinder head and the angle milling of the head you had to redrill or elongate the cylinder head bolt holes

Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: superhog88] #1518987
10/23/13 07:57 AM
10/23/13 07:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline OP
super stock
RAMM  Offline OP
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Quote:

i am assuming that wthh the moving of the cylinder head and the angle milling of the head you had to redrill or elongate the cylinder head bolt holes




Yes-elongating the holes/spot-facing was required. J.Rob


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