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Re: Orange box ???
#150698
11/14/08 01:45 PM
11/14/08 01:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,968
Hampton, Ga.
70dart360
Green Meister
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Green Meister
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,968
Hampton, Ga.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ballast only controls the coil, the box uses a full 12V.  And as far as the orange box, the old ones were great, the past 10 years though, they were junk and wont last no time.
70 Dart Swinger
72 D-100 440 shortbed
76 Pinto, 68k 21mpg!
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Re: Orange box ???
[Re: 70dart360]
#150699
11/14/08 01:47 PM
11/14/08 01:47 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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the negative side of the coil is triggered inside the box. That is what that transistor does. It is a switch. It closes and opens the negative side of the coil when the magnetic pick up in the distributor tells it to.
So ya, more voltage and current to the coil, the more power thru that transistor so it WILL get hotter. If the heat cant be disapated fast enough, it will blow or melt that potting material
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Re: Orange box ???
#150700
11/14/08 02:56 PM
11/14/08 02:56 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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For short runs any of the boxes will take full alternator voltage but will get over hot for crusing around. Stock boxes are limited to 5500 RPMs. The coil will also take short periods of full voltage. But will boil the oil if left on to long. When you put more voltage thru the coil it will produce a hotter spark. But none of them will put out more spark than is needed to jump the gap on the plug. Thats why we open up the gap when we have hotter ignition systems to make the coil fire more voltage. The better quality of box you use the better it will handle the extra voltage. Thats why FBO designed their Box and coil to take Higher voltage with out melting down. But they still need a resister to control the voltage on the street . I run their system on my race car a full voltage but then the car rairly runs longer than a few minutes. Also they use better Transister and circutry that improves the slew rate which is the time it takes the signal to travel thru the box and to the coil. That slew rate is high on the Mopar boxes thats why they retard the timing. All boxes do it some, but the better the circutry the lower the slew rate and the less retard. FBO also has timing kits that allow you to adjust the distributor mechanical advance with out welding the slots and can be installed or removed with out damaging the distributor the kit has 4 preset curves but can be filed to make multipul advances www.4secondsflat.com 
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Re: Orange box ???
[Re: IronWolf]
#150703
11/14/08 10:27 PM
11/14/08 10:27 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Astro turfing that is new to me. Sorry if my info isnt worthy of your superior intellect I was just offering some info. If my suggesting people that can help others is astro turfing then so be it. And that the following guy put a MSD on his sons car and it didnt make any differance supports my assumption about ignitions not putting out more than they need to to jump the gap.Makes MSD kind of worthless like people that critisize others to make them selves seem better.
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Re: Orange box ???
[Re: RapidRobert]
#150708
11/15/08 12:06 PM
11/15/08 12:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
denfireguy
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
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Quote:
that settles it(for me). My next one is going in fromt of the radiator a little bit off to the side.
You will have to watch out for moisture penetration. They are mounted back there for two reasons, get them out of direct spray from rain and to have the fire wall sink some of the heat away from the transistor. Don't get alarmed if the transistor gets warm, it is supposed to. The output transistors in your AM radio get hotter and manage to stay alive. I used to carry a spare ignition module for fear the thing would die and leave me stranded. After 30 years, I can't remember where I put it. The original won't die. I think it is in the gap between the trunk extension and the fender, now that I think about it. I will have to look. Its in a sandwich bag.
Craig
2014 Ram 1500 Laramie, 73 Cuda
Previous mopars: 62 Valiant, 65 Fury III, 68 Fury III, 72 Satellite, 74 Satellite, 89 Acclaim, 98 Caravan, 2003 Durango
Only previous Non-Mopar: Schwinn Tornado
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Re: Orange box ???
[Re: denfireguy]
#150709
11/15/08 12:21 PM
11/15/08 12:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Good point, it would certainly catch hell if I put it there. I'll have to rethink that.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Orange box ???
#150715
11/16/08 01:45 PM
11/16/08 01:45 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
For short runs any of the boxes will take full alternator voltage but will get over hot for crusing around. Stock boxes are limited to 5500 RPMs. The coil will also take short periods of full voltage. But will boil the oil if left on to long. When you put more voltage thru the coil it will produce a hotter spark. But none of them will put out more spark than is needed to jump the gap on the plug. Thats why we open up the gap when we have hotter ignition systems to make the coil fire more voltage. The better quality of box you use the better it will handle the extra voltage. Thats why FBO designed their Box and coil to take Higher voltage with out melting down. But they still need a resister to control the voltage on the street . I run their system on my race car a full voltage but then the car rairly runs longer than a few minutes. Also they use better Transister and circutry that improves the slew rate which is the time it takes the signal to travel thru the box and to the coil. That slew rate is high on the Mopar boxes thats why they retard the timing. All boxes do it some, but the better the circutry the lower the slew rate and the less retard. FBO also has timing kits that allow you to adjust the distributor mechanical advance with out welding the slots and can be installed or removed with out damaging the distributor the kit has 4 preset curves but can be filed to make multipul advances www.4secondsflat.com
Slew rate is important and can retard the timing if its bad enough.
That being said, Ive heard the hype of FBO but being the sleptic that I am (as well as my electrical engineering background), I'd need to see so me numbers that back it up. And by numbers, Im not talking about tests run by FBO to sell their products but actual independent test numbers. Also, I could easily figure out the slew rate and any reliability issues if I saw a schematic and a parts list of each box.
Seems like its a heavil;y gaurded secret.
I actually removed the circuit board from an ignition box several months ago. the circuit is pretty elementary. I'd love to compare it to the FBO box to see whats different (if anything)
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Re: Orange box ???
#150716
11/16/08 05:56 PM
11/16/08 05:56 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Well you'll just have to Call them but I would imagine that he's as likely to give you his product specs as MSD Or Fast EFI or any other electronics company. As a electrical engineer I would assume you know what kind of things that would cause a increased slew rate. I'm no engineer I use the product and it works But thats the last any of you will hear from me about that product or possibly any others since All I ever seem to get from You no it alls is greif when I try to participate on the site. So go stroke your egos and give someone else the greif I'm going back out to the shop and work on real cars. 
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Re: Orange box ???
#150717
11/16/08 07:27 PM
11/16/08 07:27 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
denfireguy
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
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Quote:
Slew rate is important and can retard the timing if its bad enough.
That being said, Ive heard the hype of FBO but being the sleptic that I am (as well as my electrical engineering background), I'd need to see so me numbers that back it up. And by numbers, Im not talking about tests run by FBO to sell their products but actual independent test numbers. Also, I could easily figure out the slew rate and any reliability issues if I saw a schematic and a parts list of each box.
Seems like its a heavil;y gaurded secret.
I actually removed the circuit board from an ignition box several months ago. the circuit is pretty elementary. I'd love to compare it to the FBO box to see whats different (if anything)
I agree. Since slew rate is a function of the band width of the amplifier, even with using a discrete pass transistor I don't think it should be a serious issue even at 10,000 RPM. Electronics have come a long way since Chrysler designed the ignition circuit but amps with slew rates adequate to pass even 100,000 pulses per second were common in that era. But you are right, the outboard circuitry would be the limiting factor.
I am a proponent of using capacitive discharge ignitions such as MSD. It will limit the current through the ignition box whether it is orange, chrome, black or aftermarket. I am not endorsing MSD, in fact I have never used one. I have ancient Delta Mark 10s that I built in the 70s and they still work well for me but they have not been made for 25 years. But I am not racing, I just want a reliable ignition. I am also an amateur radio operator and know when an MSD is nearby (or just about any Ford) because my radios go ape with noise.
Just my experiences. I am not an engineer but I do have patents in circuits using op amps so I know enough to get in trouble.
Craig
2014 Ram 1500 Laramie, 73 Cuda
Previous mopars: 62 Valiant, 65 Fury III, 68 Fury III, 72 Satellite, 74 Satellite, 89 Acclaim, 98 Caravan, 2003 Durango
Only previous Non-Mopar: Schwinn Tornado
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