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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: YYZ]
#1494986
09/02/13 12:09 PM
09/02/13 12:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 654
MN
astrobuf
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 654
MN
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Self Etching primer would be a waste, it's designed to etch metal to anchor itself. You don't have any bare metal.
I'd call Dupont's Tech Service line and ask them.
Checking a few reference sites, it looks like 7 days is the window. Some manufacturers say sand and apply another coat of epoxy, some say scuff and apply a sealer.
If it was my car, I'd scuff it up with a scotchbrite pad and shoot a sealer before base coating it.
Astrobuf
Last edited by astrobuf; 09/02/13 12:29 PM.
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: azblackhemi]
#1494988
09/02/13 12:24 PM
09/02/13 12:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
The tech sheets for most Epoxy Primers recommend sanding and recoating with more Epoxy Primer after 7 days.
This is right... 
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: azblackhemi]
#1494990
09/02/13 12:48 PM
09/02/13 12:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 287
Greenville, N.C.
BarrsRestoration
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 287
Greenville, N.C.
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Quote:
The tech sheets for most Epoxy Primers recommend sanding and recoating with more Epoxy Primer after 7 days.
You can't go wrong doing it this way. Anything less is shortcut. It's not worth risking paint failure/adhesion problems later.
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: BarrsRestoration]
#1494992
09/02/13 01:41 PM
09/02/13 01:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
The tech sheets for most Epoxy Primers recommend sanding and recoating with more Epoxy Primer after 7 days.
You can't go wrong doing it this way. Anything less is shortcut. It's not worth risking paint failure/adhesion problems later.
I am redoing a steel tanker truck that I sprayed in 2005. Single stage urethane over epoxy primer. I got lazy and let it sit for weeks and then just scuffed it(epoxy primer) and sprayed the urethane. The urethane comes off pretty easy and has not held up like my other paint jobs where I stayed there(at work) and spray everything wet on wet, like in a 24 hour deal.
Lesson learned.
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: YYZ]
#1494993
09/02/13 04:01 PM
09/02/13 04:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,572
Jacksonville Florida
elitecustombody
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
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Jacksonville Florida
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Quote:
Makes sense.
Thanks everyone for the replies.
Looks like I'll scuff & shoot more epoxy when I'm ready to finish the rest of the work on the car in one final push.
Keep in mind that most epoxy primers can be used as a sealer, just add more reducer .That way you're not loading bunch of useless material 
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: jughed]
#1494995
09/02/13 09:05 PM
09/02/13 09:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 287
Greenville, N.C.
BarrsRestoration
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 287
Greenville, N.C.
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Quote:
Not to steal this thread, but i'm in the middle of replacing both quarters and fenders with AMD stuff, but will not have the car painted until next spring. I will finish the bodywork before winter and want to cover the bare metal (along with the usual filler) and resume work in the spring...what's the best choice (type/brand) of epoxy primer, and how many coats for now??
Also, does the black coating on the AMD parts need to be completely stripped from the inside of the fenders & quarters?? or can it be scuffed and primered??
thanks!!!!!
"Best" epoxy depends on who you ask. The brand I've relied on for the past twenty years is PPG, the DP line of epoxies. Before that I used Glasurit, a high end European brand. The PPG DP is pricey compared to mail order brands like Kirker, but I like knowing I have a local supplier and regional rep I can call if there is ever a question or problem.
The black coating on the AMD parts should only be sanded not removed, (220 grit is fine) and primed. I prefer to epoxy my new sanded parts also.
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: BarrsRestoration]
#1494996
09/02/13 10:33 PM
09/02/13 10:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
Q5_Ed
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
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What is the rule of thumb for sequencing paint/bodywork layers? IF I were to work slowly one area such as the shell. Send to blaster, what do I put on the bare metal first, Etching primer or epoxy? If etching can I later apply epoxy and is it more durable? Advantages to either?
WANTED : ...A New Sponsor or Winning Lottery Ticket
69 A12 road runner ,Q5, post coupe, 4 speed, former Drag car restored to "Driver" condition in the early 90's, Showing some Patina. SS/E Track Record Holder 1980 10.40 @ 130mph
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Q5_Ed]
#1494997
09/02/13 10:44 PM
09/02/13 10:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 654
MN
astrobuf
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 654
MN
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Lots of controversy/opinion diversity on this question. IMHO, if you have a clean, just blasted surface, you should not use etching primer, rather, you should use epoxy followed by a 2K primer when you are all done and ready to finish up.
There are many threads on the topic posted at hotrodders.com and the guy I trust the most, deadbodyman, despises self etch primer as a crutch and not a good one at that.
Good luck,
Astrobuf
So, are you really a Rocket Scientist?
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: astrobuf]
#1494998
09/02/13 11:24 PM
09/02/13 11:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 287
Greenville, N.C.
BarrsRestoration
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 287
Greenville, N.C.
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Quote:
Lots of controversy/opinion diversity on this question. IMHO, if you have a clean, just blasted surface, you should not use etching primer, rather, you should use epoxy followed by a 2K primer when you are all done and ready to finish up.
There are many threads on the topic posted at hotrodders.com and the guy I trust the most, deadbodyman, despises self etch primer as a crutch and not a good one at that.
Good luck,
Astrobuf
I agree with what you've posted. No need for spraying etching primer over blasted metal. Personally, I don't care for etching primers myself. For some people they have become a crutch for poor metal prep, a substitute for removing surface rust. Also, some etching primers should not be sprayed over fillers or used after etching metal with acid cleaners.
I use a combination of acid (DX579) and blasting, followed with two coats of PPG DP epoxy primer.
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: BarrsRestoration]
#1494999
09/02/13 11:41 PM
09/02/13 11:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Great thread.
Is one (self etch or epoxy) more weather resistant than the other? For instance in the case of a drivign paint good or one that is kept outside while working on other parts or other cars?
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: mopar346]
#1495000
09/02/13 11:54 PM
09/02/13 11:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 654
MN
astrobuf
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 654
MN
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Leaving any primered car outside and exposed to the rain and the sun is a bad idea. Primers lack UV stabilizers and so will degrade when exposed to the sun. If you gotta leave it out, you at least should tarp it to keep the sun off, bu tyou also need to keep it dry from dew/condensation...
In general, I think the literature favors epoxy's ability to seal out moisture and oxygen over that of etching primers. Note as we've discussed above, that if you let the epoxy dwell more than a week, you'll need to scotchbrite it prior to applying the next coat.
Astrobuf
So, are you really a Rocket Scientist?
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: astrobuf]
#1495001
09/03/13 11:55 AM
09/03/13 11:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Thank you, don't mean to hi-jack the thread. I sure we have all or at least most of us have driven cars that are in primer while we are working on it. I currently have been driving the crap out of my R/T. I primed it several years ago to stop any further decay and to get it mostly one color. At this point I figure when it comes time I will strip it and start over but figured if there was a better bet for the time being I might shut it one week end. At this point I'm not even sure what I shot it with. Maybe it's another thread topic but I enjoy the thought of a driving restoration/build like in the old days. Remember when you were in high school and built your first car. IT was fun back then, no numbers to worry about.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Dave Watt]
#1495004
09/03/13 12:48 PM
09/03/13 12:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18,582
Rust Belt, SW PA
Silver70
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,582
Rust Belt, SW PA
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I do the body work over epoxy. I've seen too many cars with putty on bare metal that had rust under the putty.
68 Road Runner, 69 Belvedere, 71 Challenger Vert
340 barracuda, 01 Ram CTD, 95 Ram, 04 Ram, 85 Daytona turbo Z
66 GTO, 06 Magnum RT AWD. 07 Ram CTD, 07 Ram
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Dave Watt]
#1495005
09/03/13 01:26 PM
09/03/13 01:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,572
Jacksonville Florida
elitecustombody
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
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Jacksonville Florida
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Quote:
Another hi-jack:
Some will put filler on bare metal, block, then prime. Others will prime the whole body, then start the filler work.
What do the professionals think?
Always do it over epoxy.Filler is like a sponge,it will absorb moisture and cause rust under it .Epoxy blocks moisture . That way you can have a piece of mind knowing that you won't have to deal with rust issues down the road
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: elitecustombody]
#1495006
09/03/13 01:49 PM
09/03/13 01:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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To add another question to the mix.
Do you osphos under the epoxy or not?
In the case that you striped the paint with a DA as oppose to blasting, would you epoxy or self etch? Even with blasting I like to osphos and DA would leave more potential for rust than blasting, I have been in the practice of using osphos even on blasted areas. Any thoughts?
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1495010
09/03/13 07:28 PM
09/03/13 07:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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How do you clean after blasting? Meaning how do you get all the blasting dust off.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1495012
09/03/13 08:03 PM
09/03/13 08:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Do you wipe with a solution of some sort? I am currently using Windex with 10% acrisol in it and then a tack rag.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1495014
09/03/13 10:25 PM
09/03/13 10:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Interesting, I am referring to when painting over primer, never painted straight on bare metal except for small parts, brackets and such, never had a body good enough to allow that.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1495015
09/03/13 10:29 PM
09/03/13 10:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
Q5_Ed
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
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Great information going on here. Keep it going, so lets say you have a slow paced project and can;t go too far at once. I'm getting some major metal work underneath now to an old SS/E A12 car. If my car needed some minor dent removal to the shell in various locations such as quarters, too, floor, would you dolley that first before blasting, or after? And once you have blasted and primed with epoxy, started filling and sanding filler, whats the next coat over that initial epoxy? I am assuming you will burn thru the epoxy while sanding the filler, maybe need more filler, etc. So to avoid filler over bare metal you would add more primer? Gets confusing to think about for the amatuer body man. personally I am hoping to sub out the blasting and first epoxy step, then bring car home to save money on bottom, inside, and possibly engine compartment and trunk.... 
WANTED : ...A New Sponsor or Winning Lottery Ticket
69 A12 road runner ,Q5, post coupe, 4 speed, former Drag car restored to "Driver" condition in the early 90's, Showing some Patina. SS/E Track Record Holder 1980 10.40 @ 130mph
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Q5_Ed]
#1495017
09/03/13 10:55 PM
09/03/13 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Ed, do you have any pictures of that paint job before the sand paper, the design/pattern I can see looks fricking awesome!
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: elitecustombody]
#1495018
09/03/13 11:39 PM
09/03/13 11:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,229
In The Hills
jughed
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,229
In The Hills
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Quote:
Quote:
Another hi-jack:
Some will put filler on bare metal, block, then prime. Others will prime the whole body, then start the filler work.
What do the professionals think?
Always do it over epoxy.Filler is like a sponge,it will absorb moisture and cause rust under it .Epoxy blocks moisture . That way you can have a piece of mind knowing that you won't have to deal with rust issues down the road
thanks for that info!!
A gentleman (who does fleet vehicle bodywork as a profession, and restorations on the side) has suggested using fiberglass reinforced filler at the seam where the 1/4 panel joins with the roof. Ok to go this route?? or is using lead as a filler the way to go??
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: mopar346]
#1495019
09/04/13 09:59 PM
09/04/13 09:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
Q5_Ed
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
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I took several paint layers off with a citrus stripper, that pattern is a lace over the original Q5 on the bottom layer. Amazingly preserved under all the race car repaints. I do have a few pic's from back in the day.
Last edited by Q5_Ed; 09/04/13 10:16 PM.
WANTED : ...A New Sponsor or Winning Lottery Ticket
69 A12 road runner ,Q5, post coupe, 4 speed, former Drag car restored to "Driver" condition in the early 90's, Showing some Patina. SS/E Track Record Holder 1980 10.40 @ 130mph
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Q5_Ed]
#1495020
09/04/13 10:05 PM
09/04/13 10:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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I don't think it loaded please try again or e-mail them to me. mopar346@yahoo.comI think this is the car.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: mopar346]
#1495021
09/04/13 10:20 PM
09/04/13 10:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
Q5_Ed
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,896
New England
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Ya thats the lace on the side back in the mid 70's. Don't have any good close ups, but the shop photo is pretty much it. It has not been stripped yet or will it be anytime soon.
WANTED : ...A New Sponsor or Winning Lottery Ticket
69 A12 road runner ,Q5, post coupe, 4 speed, former Drag car restored to "Driver" condition in the early 90's, Showing some Patina. SS/E Track Record Holder 1980 10.40 @ 130mph
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Q5_Ed]
#1495022
09/04/13 10:29 PM
09/04/13 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Awesome car!
Back to topic, epoxy don't self etch, filler over epoxy, prime and block til your hands are numb and block once more.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: jughed]
#1495023
09/04/13 10:35 PM
09/04/13 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
flypaper
I hate Texas
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I hate Texas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Another hi-jack:
Some will put filler on bare metal, block, then prime. Others will prime the whole body, then start the filler work.
What do the professionals think?
Always do it over epoxy.Filler is like a sponge,it will absorb moisture and cause rust under it .Epoxy blocks moisture . That way you can have a piece of mind knowing that you won't have to deal with rust issues down the road
thanks for that info!!
A gentleman (who does fleet vehicle bodywork as a profession, and restorations on the side) has suggested using fiberglass reinforced filler at the seam where the 1/4 panel joins with the roof. Ok to go this route?? or is using lead as a filler the way to go??
go with lead
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: YYZ]
#1495024
09/06/13 12:03 AM
09/06/13 12:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,668
South Dakota
hotairballoonpilot
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,668
South Dakota
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Just went through a class recertifcation PPG class in April. New epoxy that's out is DPLV epoxy primers. They have a true 7 day Top coat window plus if you wanna sand them they sand a lot like a surfacer. I used the white DPLV 48 on some old gas station oil tanks I redid for a customer. He blasted them. I did some plastic work quick on them finished them in 220 quick on a DA. Threw two coats on them let them sit over the weekend. Monday am I DA'ed the ones that had some deeper sand scratches in the filler with 320 grit really quick. It didn't ball up on the paper like other epoxys do actually powdered like a surfacer. Wiped them off and put some industrial PPG AUE 200 white on them. They looked great. Now would I do a car this way no but the reps are saying they are seeing and pushing resto shops more on this line. Said its better where you can be direct to metal priming and if needed sand it. I was actually impressed. Just another option to think about as like they say you prime a car then reprime it if you don't get everything scuffed on the surfacers that have a day or less top coat or resand time window on them you end up with peeling paint.
As far as etch primers go. I vary on my use of them. Depends on the job. I like them cause if I use say dx 579 and don't get it all washed and dried off there is a film that I'm always bugged about. Where etch primers I dust them on and don't pool or run them I know I have a good chemical bond. Btw that's the easiest way i tell people about them. One is kinda like a glue( epoxy) the other has teeth that bight into the metal.
Contact Me about AMD Prices
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1495025
09/07/13 01:11 AM
09/07/13 01:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
ek3
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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Quote:
I do use the dupont and ppg wash(acid) primers over freshly sand blasted metal, have been for a long time. It provides extra grip I believe if I'm going to all the trouble of sand blasting.
615s variprime is the dupont paint and PPG make 2 kinds and only one is OK for blasted metal, it works good as I have been painting trucks since the 90s and keep my trucks for years.
IMO there's nothing better than freshly blasted metal to paint, I have never used any thing under my acid wash primer and then epoxy on top of that. I never even touch the metal after blasting before wash primer. I usually blast it and paint it the same day.
 the acid wash primer is ensuring a bond occurs on the fresh metal.it forms a tight bond to the surface by chemical bonding. I have always PREPSOL rinsed blasted metal and used an epoxy containing zinc chromate as the rust inhibiting primer. an epoxy utilizes a mechanical bonding process which is exactly what you have with a [profiled] blasted surface. the main difference between the two systems is the epoxy's zinc is in direct contact with the steel surface and ensures complete rust control. the acid primers tend to lean more towards the bonding process. if the metal is slick, the acids are much better at maintaining the bond. the acid primers are more tolerant to contaminants than the epoxy is. with the proper/ clean profile on the metal, an epoxy will perform very well also.
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: jughed]
#1495027
10/05/13 11:47 AM
10/05/13 11:47 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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A couple of points I'd like to add. First, figure out what your final finish is going to be and work back from there. Many great painters mix different brands and products, but for the guy that has little experience and is not used to a bunch of different products and how they react, you are better off going with a single brand. It's all designed to go together and the paint rep will be much more willing to discuss start to finish if you stick with one system. Second, get to know your local paint rep. Just like a good doctor or grocer, find a person that you get along with and trust and follow their advice. They will be able to help you with any issues a lot better than most keyboard jockeys (even the great painters here!) since they will know the products, local conditions and really want you to succeed. A great paint job helps them sell their product and service. A bad paint job and word of mouth hurts them.
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: RodStRace]
#1495028
10/05/13 03:50 PM
10/05/13 03:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735
North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735
North Dakota
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This should be in the archives. Lots of good info here.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Prep for painting over epoxy primer? Sitting a while
[Re: jughed]
#1495030
10/07/13 10:39 PM
10/07/13 10:39 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
ek3
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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Quote:
a little bump for this very informative thread....
yesterday i sprayed PPG DP90LF on the inside of the new AMD quarters and fenders before installation and i love the flat black look with the ever so slight texture, and it's what i consider the perfect look for a flat black pin-on glass hood. I have heard of epoxy primer being used on the underside of vehicles, but if i decide to use it instead of paint($$$) on the spare glass hood, will it eventually fade??
epoxy is not suitable for sun exposure.
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