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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494266
09/21/13 08:48 PM
09/21/13 08:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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For a fairly close comparison on a vehicle I did weigh at RT66 dragstrip in Joliet.... 1972 Road Runner 440 with iron heads and iron HP manifolds, full exhaust, auto on column with factory bench and rear seat, air grabber hood and 8 3/4" rear with me in it (200#) the car weighed 4000# I have looked at some of those factory shipping weights and those appear to be so light I wonder where those cars are? Factory lightweights???? Now the Feather Duster that is the way to go: http://oldcarjunkie.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/plymouth-feather-duster/
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1494270
09/22/13 03:33 AM
09/22/13 03:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Good luck cutting that much weight. My Dart has a glass hood and front valance and after it gets a gen III swap I'm hoping I'll be under 3300 lbs with me in it. I weigh 180 and the car has no heater either. An E body would need glass doors,fenders, hood and bumpers as well as lexan. Good luck.
I dont need luck. Luck has no part in this. Careful planning, inhuman patience (to find the right car), and zero compromise will get it done... when combined with certain weight-reduction genius. And before i get accused ov it, i dont believed in clapped-out hole-saw wonders either, and i wouldn't use lexan if it cut 200lbs out ov the car. I dont even want FG fenders on my cars.
I dont see the big challenge here really. My 72 Charger SE (already with two unnecessary strikes against it weight-wise: being an SE, and being a 72 instead ov a 71) weighed a legit 3550lbs empty (all fluids but no gas). Thats all steel body, all-iron 440, and slightly over 60lbs ov wheel/tire combo on EVERY corner. Most sources will peg a 3rd-gen B-body a good 300lbs over a 70 Challenger (option for option), i'll be conservative and say only 200 for arguments sake. Thats already just a 3350lb E-body similarly equipped, NOT adjusting for two years ov safety govt mandates and other BS, and i would never use an RB engine (or now, even a B-engine) in a road car, nor a 60lb/corner roller combo, nor a steel hood, nor a few other things on that car i was too poor or too lazy to bother with. There were NO lightweight components on that Charger (save junkyard buckets and steering wheel) and it had a LOT ov bad (read: heavy) bodywork and full undercoat remaining. No... without even thinking about it i wont have any trouble reaching my goals or exceeding them.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494271
09/22/13 04:34 AM
09/22/13 04:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Having a 71 Challenger with a 440, auto and Dana 60 (Yeah its a heavy rear end but its what was in the car when I bought it in 1988...) with no heater box, wipers and the only lightweight parts is a lift off fiberglass 6 pack hood and 6 point cage in mild steel is still a heavy package. I still had the back seat and a pair of factory buckets and door panels. No creature comforts like a radio and light weight 10.5" A body discs and no power booster. The 440 had an aluminum intake and a big Holley carb.
I am definitely interested in how your build works out because I have appeared to make my car a fat pig compared your estimated weights. Not really sure where I went wrong. I know its not 3800# but I do know its not close to 3200 by a country mile. This video is from when the car had a 440 with heavy TRW pistons 6 pack rods and iron 915 heads from a long time ago...probably when some of you were still in diapers
But then again who am I just some dreamer that types away on Moparts...... :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d94GGvS83es 
The burnout at the 6:00 mark is one of my favorites. 
Here is a key distinction though... you didn't make your car a 'big fat pig'... by the sound ov it (440/727/Dana 60 R/T?) it came that way... and you just didn't go that far to change it. Even in the few seconds i could get from your video (my computer wont let me watch videos anymore) i could see a lot ov factory weight... but a lot ov it was good ol' Mopar coolness... that most people here wouldn't dream ov living without: vinyl roofs, decorative chrome, Dana 60 (as you know), factory seats... and thats in just a few seconds i saw before it froze up on me. Did i see AC ducting? assuming you tossed that, did you remove ALL AC remnants? every last shred ov evidence?
Some random rambling on now... Do you have dual sport mirrors? I'll assume the console is still in there (okay, thats a hard one for auto guys, but i see a lot ov 4-gear cars still with consoles). Silly things no one notices... bumperettes? unused or 'factory over-engineering' brackets? GOBS and GOBS ov factory seam-sealer? (my stripper 70 Barracuda coupe (fixed rear windows) had over 10lbs ov ridiculously over-applied seam-sealer). unused factory speakers? 3-speed wipers? (really no better than 2-speed on these old cars) power steering/brakes? factory radiator? (on a factory HP car? ouch). Hmmm... lessee... what else... factory radios are HEAVY. Radio pulled? well dont forget the antenna/cable, etc. If you have added structural work like subframe connectors/boxes, etc. did you take the time to engineer the BEST design? or just weld large slabs ov thick mild steel in there like 90% ov 'weight conscious' racers do? Even roll bars... i've seen some silly ideas and a lot ov unnecessary over-engineering. Too late now for YOU, but why not chromoly? I see you actually have light old-school slots on that car (which you obviously could not use on a retro-supercar), but a lot ov guys now are buying up the cheap Mustang 17's and 18's... for as little as $400 a set brand new... but those suckers are HEAVVVY... I hope i dont have to even mention stuff like power windows and locks, overhead consoles, AC, cruise control... A lot ov guys go nuts with the sound-deadener these days... definitely makes the car a lot more livable... but again, at a distinct weight price. I dont know how many 'cool' old cars i've bought over the years that had anywhere from one to five unused exhaust hangers underneath the car and miles ov unused wiring under the dash and carpets. If you're building an engine, just buying GOOD modern pistons could save the whole pretty close to 10lbs. There is a LOT ov weight you can save in an engine... even a big block. Your car doesn't need resonators. Your car doesn't need factory shoulder-belts (though installing real shoulder belts might be a good idea and use ov weight). Your 72-4 E-body doesn't need 72-4 bumpers (especially when much lighter 70 bumpers look better). Your car doesn't need undercoat... sure its annoying as hell to remove, but a necessary evil for a clean, light car. How many times has your car been painted? if ANY, do you know EXACTLY whats underneath? My Charger was a MESS...
Oh how i could go on...
Not shooting at YOU here now, but some guys, even 'serious racers' have no concept ov weight-reduction. I know a couple redneck drag racers that took a perfectly solid and decent 74 Challenger, gutted it to the last unnecessary bolt, lexan'd it, one seat, tossed the dash/column/gauges for the usual race-only mess, holesawed the thing to near unsafe levels, hacked/chopped/torched the poor thing till it was a gutted clapped out waste ov a car. It ended up weighing about 200lbs less than my full-everything 72 Charger street car. That in my opinion is a big fat fail.
Heh... i find its mostly the guys with money that dont really get into serious weight-reduction... they dont have to. Need more speed/stopping power/handling? throw money at it. Alum heads, strokers, Keisler, Wilwood, Hotchkis, Fikse, blah blah. Some ov us gutter punks on the other hand had to get pretty crafty...
If you think my Challenger is hard to believe, wait'll i get into the next lil project i've got lined up. Gonna make MY Challenger look like a big ol' fat pig....
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494273
09/22/13 08:33 PM
09/22/13 08:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Your talking about removing HUNDREDS of pounds and keeping steel body and bumpers? No you don't need luck, you need magic. Can't wait to see this 3000 lb e-body with the cardboard dash when its done.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494274
09/22/13 10:01 PM
09/22/13 10:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Good luck on your project I will be watching as you post updates. BTW when you weighed your car how much of it was stripped out, what engine and trans were in it at the time?
It actually weighed in at 2930lbs, as it sits in the few pictures i've posted. Thats with 15x8 Mopar steelies, 265/305 50 Euro T/A's (heavy tires!), and a big block ov wood to jack up the rear added to the weight. What was missing was the jack/spare, carpet, a few pounds ov metal due to rust (not much though, i gave it 10 to be charitable), battery, gas, air cleaner, cardboard trunk-divider. ALL ov which were weighed (got the stock battery and air cleaner weights from guys here) with an accurate scale... not just the usual bathroom scale BS. The final tally comes in at a hair over 3000lbs. Thats also with the 2 watt radio and buckets... which are technically considered options. Not sure if the bench would be lighter than two buckets though. So it could have come even lighter. Lighter still had it been a 'deputy' car. Thats with a 225/3-speed stick/7 1/4" rear. My car never even had factory undercoat.
Like i've said many many times in other posts... starting with the right car is a MASSIVE step in the right direction. That doesn't mean just picking a random 73 Duster over a 70 Roadrunner and assuming its a light car. Hell...i used to obsess about selling it and looking for a no-option 70 Barracuda instead... just to save that ridiculously small bit ov size and the not-so-small 50lb weight difference. But the Challenger is MY car. The only way my car could have been better was if it came TX9 black instead ov red.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1494275
09/22/13 10:06 PM
09/22/13 10:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Your talking about removing HUNDREDS of pounds and keeping steel body and bumpers? No you don't need luck, you need magic. Can't wait to see this 3000 lb e-body with the cardboard dash when its done.
Not removing... just not adding. You're obviously not reading my posts.
I plan on FG hood, trunklid and maybe valences. I'd go fenders too... but mine are perfect, as is the paint on them which i'd never be able to match up with new ones. I'd try FG bumpers too... but sh!te happens, and sometimes you gotta get physical. Heh... no cardboard dash i'm afraid.
And yes, magic. Now you're starting to get it...
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494276
09/23/13 01:00 AM
09/23/13 01:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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The reason I'm having trouble believing your stats is my Dart was also a stripper car, /6 3 on the tree, vinyl carpet, manual everything car with 0 undercoating and 9" front drums. I put on a glass hood and valance, removed backseat and installed a bb and auto. It weighed 3260 without driver. My math says add 100# for e body at least to that with all else being equal.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1494277
09/23/13 06:43 AM
09/23/13 06:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
The reason I'm having trouble believing your stats is my Dart was also a stripper car, /6 3 on the tree, vinyl carpet, manual everything car with 0 undercoating and 9" front drums. I put on a glass hood and valance, removed backseat and installed a bb and auto. It weighed 3260 without driver. My math says add 100# for e body at least to that with all else being equal.
The 72 is notably heavier than the 70, in all cars. The typical E to A difference is more like 200lbs. Darts are the heaviest ov A-bodies. So not quite 'all else equal' yet.
Then you have the big block. That in itself is a heavy design, and then the way most guys here, even the 'weight-conscious' run them is worse yet (or at least not as good as it could be). My plan was for an aluminum top-end 426 stroker lowdeck, or at minimum... a stock-stroke 400. Even with all my tricks and fun parts accumulated its just not gonna do what i want it to in this car. I've 98% decided to sell my 400 and years worth ov accrued lowdeck stuff to get a Magnum 5.2L or 5.9. I dont know anything about Mopar smallblocks... have NEVER messed with one... but it just makes more sense for me, and the weight difference is a massive part ov that. Further, i probably wont even install it unless its got aluminum heads. Even the Magnum is on the fat side for me and if i can i'll abandon that plan as well for something very modern and light.
Also, it should be noted that i dont carry a jack or spare, so i dont add that to the final. I figured that a BCAA membership card is quite a bit lighter than a jack and spare and in 25 years ov driving i've never had a flat... Call me a gambler, but thats another 40-45lbs i dont have to carry.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494278
09/23/13 11:13 AM
09/23/13 11:13 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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A lot of this is just speculation as you don't have a complete car yet. If you start with the right Mopar you can get them slightly under class weights, but there isn't going to be much into the car. The Challenger and the Road Runner are cleaned out caged cars, full steel except for their hoods. Aluminium topped motors (heads and intakes) and are pretty stripped down but retain "factory appearing" and still work as cars to be tagged and titled, horns, wipers etc.
E-Max: As raced, me in it, 1/2 bag of gas - 3776lbs
(That is driving straight from the track to a set of scales.)
Road Runner: Last weight for a competition event tech: 3556lbs,
Full bag of gas, no driver.
All that said, you want a light car...
Our 65 Mustang R&D car I have been driving this year to develop our kit, has an all steel 5.0 Roller out of a 93 Explorer, T-5 from a swapmeet, and a 9" out of an icecream truck. 2 layers of insulation and is a complete car, tunes, heater, wipers. - 3090lbs. no driver 1/2 bag of gas.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1494279
09/23/13 11:59 AM
09/23/13 11:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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Yikes now I have to buy one old Mustang and one new Mustang.... It's good to see weights on cars that compete. Not far off from what I thought. The Emax does that have a 4 bbl or a 6 pack? I would have thought a small block aluminum top end engine E body to be closer to 3600, but there is a cage. The weight distribution has to be better on the E max vs the RRunner yes or? 
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494280
09/23/13 12:47 PM
09/23/13 12:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Pale Roader, explain to me how my 72 is automatically heavier than a 70? I like your ideas man but, you seem to think your the first guy to think of removing a spare tire from the trunk to save weight. Been there and done it with a Dart already and have PROOF of the results.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494281
09/23/13 12:51 PM
09/23/13 12:51 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Yikes now I have to buy one old Mustang and one new Mustang....
It's good to see weights on cars that compete.
Not far off from what I thought. The Emax does that have a 4 bbl or a 6 pack?
I would have thought a small block aluminum top end engine E body to be closer to 3600, but there is a cage.
The weight distribution has to be better on the E max vs the RRunner yes or?
Emax is a 6Pak car. I think that the last time it was weighed empty it was a bit over 3450. Front to rear was pretty marginal, 53-54% front bias.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1494282
09/23/13 01:22 PM
09/23/13 01:22 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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Quote:
A lot of this is just speculation as you don't have a complete car yet. If you start with the right Mopar you can get them slightly under class weights, but there isn't going to be much into the car. The Challenger and the Road Runner are cleaned out caged cars, full steel except for their hoods. Aluminium topped motors (heads and intakes) and are pretty stripped down but retain "factory appearing" and still work as cars to be tagged and titled, horns, wipers etc.
E-Max: As raced, me in it, 1/2 bag of gas - 3776lbs
(That is driving straight from the track to a set of scales.)
Road Runner: Last weight for a competition event tech: 3556lbs,
Full bag of gas, no driver.
All that said, you want a light car...
Our 65 Mustang R&D car I have been driving this year to develop our kit, has an all steel 5.0 Roller out of a 93 Explorer, T-5 from a swapmeet, and a 9" out of an icecream truck. 2 layers of insulation and is a complete car, tunes, heater, wipers. - 3090lbs. no driver 1/2 bag of gas.
Thanks for posting the weights! Always nice to see hard data from competitive cars.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494285
09/23/13 11:39 PM
09/23/13 11:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
My 70 Challenger weighed pretty much exactly its stated 3006lb shipping weight. Before the 'E-bodies all weigh 2-tons' crowd chime in... well, i had a local circle track racer bring over some pricey scales, spent some time and some money and well... turns out all along i was right. these cars CAN weigh very little. A stripped out base 70 Barracuda would be even lighter.
Next to Mitch's Challenger, this has to be one of the lighter Challengers out there. Not a slam, but I think you pointed out the simplest reason in that many don't think about not adding weight and they start adding this and that and before you know it, you have a 3800# E body. My '74 Challenger was the biggest pig in my collection at 3600+ My '67 was the lightest street car at 3200# with full undercoating. I did get one of my drag cars down to 3000# without swiss cheesing it and using all steel panels, but it was gutted pretty good and I sorted through stacks of parts to find the lightest combinations of pieces
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