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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494246
09/18/13 08:11 AM
09/18/13 08:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Seeing as i'm a look ahead/big picture type guy, and am too cheap to waste money, i've been chewing on this one for a couple years now. I'm at a point where i could just sell my 70 Challenger plus all the amassed parts i've collected for it for enough to make a big dent in a new car purchase, and make up the difference. So yeah... i've been doing a lot ov thinking. So far the 70 is still sitting untouched, ready to get built... or sell.
Thing is... just like building a car, buying a car can give you an acute case ov the 'might as wells' too. Assuming i DONT want forced-induction (i dont)... The top new car pick (that i can theoretically afford)? used Boss 302 Mustang. I'm seeing them less than 30K already. But... if no-BS speed (road car) is my goal, then why not look around? For the same coin i can get into a 2000 Cobra R (okay, maybe i just like Mustangs), arguably on the same level as the Boss. For a few K more... a WAY faster car... a 2006-up Z06 Vette... with the 505HP 7-liter LS. Not not NOT a Chevy guy... but that is a LOT ov speed and well... everything... for 40K. Maybe i save up a few more months (as the price comes down). Or... i could buy an already 90% built 96-01 4.6 4V Cobra... full suspension, built engine, built everything... and save a pile ov dough for likely far more speed than the Boss. Hell... i could just buy a nice 99 Cobra for 10K, sink 20K into it and do battle with that Boss and have a simpler car, WITH all the new car tricks, and without a lot ov the very-new car BS i dont like. Hell, a few months ago i saw a HIGHLY modified ZR1 Vette (95) that would roast a NEW Zr1 like a dumptruck... still less than the new Boss.
(maybe someone here could tell i'm a BIG fan ov N/A DOHC V8's...)
Or... i could put 30K into my 70. But as others have said, when shooting for these levels... you dont get much for 30K... and i mean when all is said and done. Sure, you get the fun parts, all bolted up, but the real drivers/builders here know it goes a LOT further than that. Mitch might not have the most technically stunning car here, but its bloody sorted... and i bet it cost a biiiiiit more than say, 25K in parts, labor and such to get there. Thats assuming you can still get a decent E-body for 5K, which you can. Even going with certain 'kits' dont detail many hidden costs, and even after tacking on those hidden items, and driving it you start to notice other very weak points in the whole... and yeah... it adds up.
I think i have a better chance ov pulling off the old car vs new car win here than most... simply because i am less willing to compromise. One thing that can definitely be said about Moparts is that people here looooove their comfort, and their polishers... and that will suck up a LOT ov that budget. My car wont be getting painted, and it wont be getting AC, stereo (whats the point?), rear seats, power anything. My car is light... simple as a rock in a bucket, a solid starting point, and in my opinion, as close to perfect for this endeavor as possible without being a 70 Barracuda instead (2" shorter, maybe 50lbs lighter... i'll deal).
I'm still heavily leaning towards the 70, but seeing as i have to drive it every day as well (have no use for a 'weekend' car) it cant get 15MPG. I'd rather it didn't even stop at 20. So i'm at odds now with what to use for an engine, and i hate to admit so far most ov my math ends up pointing in blasphemous directions...
Cool thread.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494247
09/18/13 11:55 AM
09/18/13 11:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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Pale Roader -- Thanks for the compliment on my T/A... the costs involved to build/develop/setup my car were done in the late 70s into and throughout the 80s, a little more in the 90s... costs for all types of parts (suspension, body, etc) were far less back then and "kits" weren't available as they are today... the car was purpose-built for pylon autocrossing on a national-level of competition.. it did pretty well.. and the "nut-behind-the-wheel" wasn't too bad, either. AND... all the modifications to the car followed the allowable SCCA Solo II rules (from F/Stock.. into E/Street Prepared)... many of the mods available and advertised today fro different companies are not legal in those SCCA classes.. some of the newer mods of today would place the car into tougher classes that = yet more $$ to spend and the results may not be worth it, pending other types of cars within those classes.
Back then, as is now, there was/is no need to have an overdrive transmission for a pylon course... In fact, on most road courses (in my midwest area here, there isn't even any need for O/D tranny, except, say, for Road America.. and that can simply be rear geared at 3.2, 2.9 or 2.7.
I drive my car easy, any time, on the highway at a steady 2700~3200 rpm around upper 60s-low 70s... ~12-14 at best mpg on the hwy.... but mpg doesn't matter to me.. I used to trailer it all the time on the wknds, and I may eventually be trailering if I get back into "competition". To preserve it (any type of possible damage and wear/tear, etc), I don't drive it everyday.. so, again, its a purpose built car... for fun... not economy.
If I had loads of extra cash, I'd have something more exotic, say, at the levels of a Z06/ZR1 Vette or Viper GTS.... maybe someday I'll own a car like that (and I'd never buy "a brand-new toy car" as its far too expensive.. used cars save you a ton of $$.. IMO).. but for now and the distant future, my old car is very satisfying. Pretty much anywhere I go with it, its one of the more appealing cars present (shows, races, street/hwy, etc)... the new cars (Mustangs, Camaros, Vettes, Challengers, etc) are everywhere... routine, same thing again and again... then there's the classic older cars.. and they grab the most attention.
Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 09/18/13 04:03 PM.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1494248
09/18/13 02:39 PM
09/18/13 02:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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How about a Mustang in a Mopar Hi Impact color.......Got To Have It Green..... That will get attention.... Sorry Mitch I couldn't resist. 
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494249
09/18/13 07:47 PM
09/18/13 07:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
How about a Mustang in a Mopar Hi Impact color.......Got To Have It Green.....
That will get attention....
Sorry Mitch I couldn't resist.
Heh... still not gonna do it. I could park my unfinished 70 against a line ov limited edition new Challengers and one guess which one's gonna get all the attention? And my Rallye Red isn't exactly high-impact anymore...
Mitch, the Viper could easily be included in my earlier list. I didn't add it because i could never own one. Nothing can make a V10 sound good in my opinion. A 95GTS coupe with a 6.4 Hemi would be pretty hard to hate though.
When i was 'shopping' around online for all those Boss, Cobra, Z06, ZR1 or other deals, i came across a few very nicely priced GTS coupes, even newer generation Vipers... I was shocked at how cheaply one could get into that much speed. Too bad its a V10.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494251
09/18/13 10:10 PM
09/18/13 10:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 965
Odessa, Fl
blowndart
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 965
Odessa, Fl
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Quote:
It appears many people here fear not being distinguishable at a track event maybe a cruise night or car show.
I would prefer my car to blend in, stealthy sleeper like in appearance. The preferred method of being distinguished is in the performance of the driver and machine.
It is far better in my mind to blend in and surprise the competition than to stick out and not show.
Can some older distinguishable cars with a great driver outperform a new Mustang, Camaro, Vette, GTR, Porsche ot Miata with a decent driver probably. This is the exception and not the norm.......
btw......there are a multitude of performance suspension parts for the new cars that dwarfs the offerings for the old Mopars....
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494252
09/19/13 08:01 PM
09/19/13 08:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
btw......there are a multitude of performance suspension parts for the new cars that dwarfs the offerings for the old Mopars....
I would love to have a set of Ohlins coilovers on our mopars!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494253
09/20/13 08:53 AM
09/20/13 08:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
btw......there are a multitude of performance suspension parts for the new cars that dwarfs the offerings for the old Mopars....
True. Very true, especially with the Mustangs and more common new stuff. However, going the old car route still has two very appealing pluses...
One, sheer size and weight. Lets not compare max-offering to max-offering, instead lets compare platforms... and go one step up from body-in white: base model NO-option cars. Compare a 2013 Mustang to a 67 fastback, or even a 69-70 fastback. New: 3500lbs, old 2700-2900lbs. Challenger: 3835lbs, old: 3005lbs. Technology makes up for a LOT... but 800+lbs is a massive handicap, especially when technology has become so easy to apply to the old stuff.
Which brings about point number two, R&D. When talking Mustangs and Mopars, we're not in the 80's anymore. There is a LOT ov stuff out there to bring up the old stuff. From simple little bolt-ons to complete and total re-engineered systems. The Mustangs especially have a comprehensive aftermarket, and unlike the 2011-13 Mustangs and 2008-up Challengers, people have been modifying and racing them for up to 4 1/2 decades. Thats a LOT ov time and brainpower, a LOT ov trial and error, and a LOT ov experience behind those ancient and outdated chassis. The E-bodies got slaughtered in Trans Am when they came out, not because they were awful cars, but because the other makes had 2, maybe 3 years on them. The old stuff has well over three decades on the new stuff...
The 2013 Boss is a stunning car if you really think about it... but park it beside a 67 Shelby and suddenly it looks like a goddamn tank. Now, give that tiny little 67 to a Ford guy who is like Mitch and see what happens. I realize we're not talking what IS happening out there, but more what could happen. Both sides have valid points. Like i said before, i cant decide which way to go, so i'm combining the two. How exactly? that i'm not quite sure yet. Right now i'm in the same boat as many here and just dont have the time or space or means to build a supercar, and would just go out and buy a new car if i could, but there are just too many things about the new stuff i just cant get past, and well... i still happen to have an absolutely perfect starting point sitting in the driveway right now...
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494254
09/20/13 09:34 AM
09/20/13 09:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 293
Michigan
ccarson
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 293
Michigan
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Quote:
So if you could only have one (limited garage space) would you try and get an old Mopar B/E body to handle or just sell it and get a newer Mustang 2011 - 2014 either a Boss 302, Roush Stage 3, Shelby, Saleen etc etc........
If I wanted to go Vintage Racing which is very cool, "except when some organizers get carried away with originality rules" and some of the owners are not exactly user friendly.
a 70-74 E Body would be my platform. otherwise Ill stick to my late model Mustang
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: ccarson]
#1494255
09/20/13 10:07 PM
09/20/13 10:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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70 - 74 Challengers and Cuda's are cool......typical 440 powered Challengers of the era typically weigh in at 3800 pounds. Add a Dana 60 and it goes up. Stripping all of the interior/heater box/wipers is not going to take 800 pounds out of the car.
How many days are you leaving the unibody in an acid bath for?
Last edited by PHJ426; 09/20/13 10:28 PM.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494256
09/20/13 10:29 PM
09/20/13 10:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Right now i'm in the same boat as many here and just dont have the time or space or means to build a supercar, and would just go out and buy a new car if i could, but there are just too many things about the new stuff i just cant get past, and well... i still happen to have an absolutely perfect starting point sitting in the driveway right now...
I just can't justify buying a new car and losing money on the car the minute I drive it off the lot, which is why I'll probably never own a new car, which is also why I went out and got a 71 roadrunner and sunk 20k into with all the best aftermarket upgrades, and it'll be worth double that when I'm finished 
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494257
09/20/13 10:34 PM
09/20/13 10:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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A popular way to remove weight in the E body drag cars was to cut the crash beam out of the door.
I had a set in a Challenger from the old US30 dragstrip days. Those doors with no crash beam , window glass and regulator were light weight.
In a car that has no roll cage installed I would not recommend cutting the crash beam out
Last edited by PHJ426; 09/20/13 10:36 PM.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: dangina]
#1494259
09/20/13 10:47 PM
09/20/13 10:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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Quote:
Quote:
Right now i'm in the same boat as many here and just dont have the time or space or means to build a supercar, and would just go out and buy a new car if i could, but there are just too many things about the new stuff i just cant get past, and well... i still happen to have an absolutely perfect starting point sitting in the driveway right now...
I just can't justify buying a new car and losing money on the car the minute I drive it off the lot, which is why I'll probably never own a new car, which is also why I went out and got a 71 roadrunner and sunk 20k into with all the best aftermarket upgrades, and it'll be worth double that when I'm finished
Modified Mopars are not investment grade pieces. They are great cars to enjoy and I have had my share over 30 years in the hobby. Even Tom Quad removed most if not all of the track parts from his AAR Cuda when he sold it and the car went back to being shown, not driven. That was a proven car from a highly regarded builder.....
Granted it is a true AAR, those were marketed as cornering cars but there is more value in a less performing stock car.
A car that is a couple years old is the best value, no doubt. Especially when you pay cash
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: KillerBee]
#1494260
09/20/13 10:53 PM
09/20/13 10:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 293
Michigan
ccarson
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 293
Michigan
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Quote:
Boss 302 Mustang vs. Challenger 
Too funny.
I remember the 1970 Boss 302 Mustang sent the 1970 T/A Challenger home with it's tails between it's legs during the 1970 Trans Am series...Back then the sales guys at Ford had it right in making ALL the Boss 302 Mustangs sold to the public manual transmissions...like they should be.
Now we're comparing the 2 again with the obvious winner on the road course track being the Boss 302 Mustang....nothing has changed. 
Love the 70 Boss with Minilite wheels, and that dam yellow/orange color, little story about Parnelli Jones in the Trans Am cars when everyone else put there left or right front on the corner berm Parnelli would put the whole car and opposite side tire on the berm.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494261
09/21/13 09:10 AM
09/21/13 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
70 - 74 Challengers and Cuda's are cool......typical 440 powered Challengers of the era typically weigh in at 3800 pounds. Add a Dana 60 and it goes up. Stripping all of the interior/heater box/wipers is not going to take 800 pounds out of the car.
How many days are you leaving the unibody in an acid bath for?
I assume you're addressing my post?
If so, you missed the part where i said base model NO options. I didn't bother comparing an SRT8 to a 70 Hemi Challenger... faaaaar too many variables.
My 70 Challenger weighed pretty much exactly its stated 3006lb shipping weight. Before the 'E-bodies all weigh 2-tons' crowd chime in... well, i had a local circle track racer bring over some pricey scales, spent some time and some money and well... turns out all along i was right. these cars CAN weigh very little. A stripped out base 70 Barracuda would be even lighter. Compare that to the only figure i could find for a '2013 base model Challenger'... 3835 (or whatever i posted above, i forget), pounds. 6cyl car vs 6cyl car... no options on either. Thats over 800lbs. Now, add the powertrain, suspension, all the go-fast stuff to both cars and yeah... 70's got a BIG edge here. This is also assuming you are serious about performance and not just drive-in bragging... and skip the iron big block for an aluminum small block or modern engine swap. A Dana 60 has no more place on a car like this than a Dana 70 dually.
Remember, we're talking about building a competitive car (acceleration, braking, handling, etc.) out ov an old muscle car... not just building an old muscle car.
Further, you could pick an even lighter car... an early (67-71) A-body. You give up some tire size capacity, but then you've cut another 200-300lbs. 67-9 Camaros, 67-70 fastbacks, Javelin/AMX's... all lighter still than those E-bodies, yet still more 'muscular' than an A-body if thats a dealbreaker.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494262
09/21/13 10:21 AM
09/21/13 10:21 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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Quote:
]
I assume you're addressing my post?
If so, you missed the part where i said base model NO options. I didn't bother comparing an SRT8 to a 70 Hemi Challenger... faaaaar too many variables.
My 70 Challenger weighed pretty much exactly its stated 3006lb shipping weight. Before the 'E-bodies all weigh 2-tons' crowd chime in... well, i had a local circle track racer bring over some pricey scales, spent some time and some money and well... turns out all along i was right. these cars CAN weigh very little. A stripped out base 70 Barracuda would be even lighter. Compare that to the only figure i could find for a '2013 base model Challenger'... 3835 (or whatever i posted above, i forget), pounds. 6cyl car vs 6cyl car... no options on either. Thats over 800lbs. Now, add the powertrain, suspension, all the go-fast stuff to both cars and yeah... 70's got a BIG edge here. This is also assuming you are serious about performance and not just drive-in bragging... and skip the iron big block for an aluminum small block or modern engine swap. A Dana 60 has no more place on a car like this than a Dana 70 dually.
Remember, we're talking about building a competitive car (acceleration, braking, handling, etc.) out ov an old muscle car... not just building an old muscle car.
Further, you could pick an even lighter car... an early (67-71) A-body. You give up some tire size capacity, but then you've cut another 200-300lbs. 67-9 Camaros, 67-70 fastbacks, Javelin/AMX's... all lighter still than those E-bodies, yet still more 'muscular' than an A-body if thats a dealbreaker.
My 73 duster weighed in at 3580 without driver with a full tank of gas and full size spare. Not sure where I went wrong! That's 3800 race weight...
I realize a 73 is heavier, but not that much. It's the addition of all the 'modern day' stuff that is weighing her down.
18x9.5" mustang wheels and tires- ~55 lb x 5
14" brakes on all 4 corners- 28 lb rotors in front, 20 lb in rear
Four speakers, radio, and amp
Larger battery
Ford 9" floater axle- no different than 8 3/4 (but heavier than 7 1/4 or 8 1/4)
Tko600 with scatter shield bell housing (tranny = a833 weight, but tack on a few for the scatter shield)
Air conditioning
Oil cooler & oil accusump
Factory power steering with factory k frame
Manual brakes
5.7 Hemi with hilborn injection
Car is entirely steel. No fiberglass
I was initially disappointed it was so heavy. But, then I found an old car life article that posted a 3520 pound weight for a 70 340 duster as tested.
My point is if you build the car with modern components and modern comforts, your weight won't be that far off the new mustangs.
I'm still glad I built this car instead of buying a newer track car. Part of the fun for me is building it, which I'm starting to think may be a big part in the difference in opinion by those posting. And honestly I'm learning there are only a handful of guys who actually put their old Mopars on a road course. I'd say the list is very short.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1494263
09/21/13 08:13 PM
09/21/13 08:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
My point is if you build the car with modern components and modern comforts, your weight won't be that far off the new mustangs.
My 70 Challenger will be about 3100-3000lbs or sub-2900lbs... depending on what powertrain i go with. Thats with REALLY FAT rollers, big brakes, 8 3/4", good suspension, full exhaust system, many steel chassis mods, working wipers/heater, NO major fiberglass, NO lexan, no gutted one-seat interior, and from the casual onlooker, absolutely no visible weight-reduction mods. Thats without spending a billion dollars too. Phase two will make it even lighter as i can afford some ov the slick lightweight wheel, brake and suspension systems you guys can. Let me fudge the budget just another 10K, still faaar less than many here have into the retro-supercars, and i'll drop it even less.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494264
09/21/13 08:31 PM
09/21/13 08:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Good luck cutting that much weight. My Dart has a glass hood and front valance and after it gets a gen III swap I'm hoping I'll be under 3300 lbs with me in it. I weigh 180 and the car has no heater either. An E body would need glass doors,fenders, hood and bumpers as well as lexan. Good luck.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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