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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: bobs69]
#1489653
08/24/13 10:01 AM
08/24/13 10:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
slippery440
Crybaby440
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Crybaby440
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
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I have been running E85 for 3 years with aluminum lines with no problem. I leave the fuel in all winter.
If the MODS did their job I would not be hitting the notify MOD button. LOL
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: slippery440]
#1489654
08/24/13 11:04 AM
08/24/13 11:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
I have been running E85 for 3 years with aluminum lines with no problem. I leave the fuel in all winter.
Sorry but you will have problems sooner than later.
Methanol/ethanol will corrode the aluminum eventually. It's best to drain the cell after use.
I ran aluminum fuel cells for 20 years and drained it after every weekend.
Plus storing alcohol fuel in a vented fuel cell allows water to get into your fuel and then corrosion will be 10X worse.
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1489657
08/24/13 05:28 PM
08/24/13 05:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
slippery440
Crybaby440
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Crybaby440
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
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I hear all the horror stories but not had a problem. Took the carb apart after sitting all winter(2 years) and found it clean. I changed the filter and I do use a micron filter and that was fine(2 years). I did use a stabilizer in the fall.No problem with the fuel pump witch is also aluminum.My car sits in a unheated pole barn all winter.
I test the fuel and not found any differance from stored to new from pump.If e85 is going to effect aluminum we better switch back to iron heads and manifolds.
If the MODS did their job I would not be hitting the notify MOD button. LOL
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: bobs69]
#1489658
08/24/13 06:16 PM
08/24/13 06:16 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Have you had any trouble running alcohol with an aluminum cell?
With a vent on the tank/cell the alky/E-85 WILL
suck up moisture and moisture is what corrodes the
alum..
if you keep the air away the alky/E-85 wont do anything
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: jcc]
#1489660
08/24/13 07:35 PM
08/24/13 07:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Have you had any trouble running alcohol with an aluminum cell?
With a vent on the tank/cell the alky/E-85 WILL
suck up moisture and moisture is what corrodes the
alum..
if you keep the air away the alky/E-85 wont do anything
Well yes and no, the moisture and alcohol combine to form an acid that corrodes the alum. Keeping them separate is the solution, but very difficult.
I think this best describes the reaction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprotonation
I have 4 test samples still running(2 with E-85 and
2 with alky) 1 of each is air tight in alum the 2 others
are in a vented alum... the air tight shows ZERO corrosion
and the vented shows very little above the fuel level
(this has been 4 years now).. thats with topping
off both vented samples
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1489661
08/24/13 10:25 PM
08/24/13 10:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: jcc]
#1489662
08/24/13 10:38 PM
08/24/13 10:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
All 4 alum tanks I made with a real short filler neck
and gas caps(production stuff) and 2 have vents..
I just open the cap and look in with a flash light..
then change the fuel and put the cap back on.. pretty
simple... (to keep it air tight, fill it all the way up)
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1489663
08/26/13 01:28 PM
08/26/13 01:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 290
Norwalk Ohio
cudasteve68
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 290
Norwalk Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
All 4 alum tanks I made with a real short filler neck
and gas caps(production stuff) and 2 have vents..
I just open the cap and look in with a flash light..
then change the fuel and put the cap back on.. pretty
simple... (to keep it air tight, fill it all the way up)
I would anodize the tank. It is cheap to get done & you have a few choices of what colors you can get done. All of the race/street fuel fittings we make at work for customers are anodized for this reason. Mainly the import guys that run E-85
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: dizuster]
#1489665
08/26/13 03:11 PM
08/26/13 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
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Quote:
I know that the one time I left e85 in my carb for the winter it corroded like crazy in the bowls. Lots of guys don't have issues but I sure did.
I would say some of it is where you live and race too, race in a higher humidity area then your system would be more likely to capture moisture if it wasn't well sealed from the humid outside air, if you live in a dryer warmer climate you probably won't have near the issues,,I know guys that in the winter their garage floors would become wet if the temps during the day would rise up past the freezing point, I keep mine heated in the winter and have no issues with that, I believe that has a lot to do with individual result's. 
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: dizuster]
#1489667
08/26/13 11:02 PM
08/26/13 11:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I know that the one time I left e85 in my carb for the winter it corroded like crazy in the bowls. Lots of guys don't have issues but I sure did.
The first year I ran E-85 I left it in the carb and
had the same issue... because its vented.. since then
I run gas through the system and run it dry then pour
in some Stabilizer
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1489670
08/27/13 09:37 PM
08/27/13 09:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,520
West Palm Beach, Florida
Copper Dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,520
West Palm Beach, Florida
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You think that just a little 10% or so shouldnt hurt! Think again, this is the second tank i'm having to replace. REC90 is all i'm going to use if I have my choice. 
Last edited by Copper Dart; 08/27/13 09:37 PM.
Common sense, the least common of all the senses.
Mom.
For fear of ridicule, society stifles creativity.
Ricky Valdes
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: Copper Dart]
#1489671
08/27/13 09:43 PM
08/27/13 09:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,520
West Palm Beach, Florida
Copper Dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,520
West Palm Beach, Florida
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the float almost completely disolved! you go ahead and take your chances with that BUNK science that ethanol is a good thing for the Earth. I will be making me some spending money replacing "others" classic cars tanks very soon. Heck, I just might become a Spectra Dealer. 
Last edited by Copper Dart; 08/27/13 09:44 PM.
Common sense, the least common of all the senses.
Mom.
For fear of ridicule, society stifles creativity.
Ricky Valdes
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: Copper Dart]
#1489673
08/27/13 09:50 PM
08/27/13 09:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,520
West Palm Beach, Florida
Copper Dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,520
West Palm Beach, Florida
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Well maybe the insides of the fuel lines arnt affected nor are the insides of the say,..... fuel pump, float bowl, filler tubes, vent lines. Naw, everything is working just fine right now. You don't know what you are talking about. 
Common sense, the least common of all the senses.
Mom.
For fear of ridicule, society stifles creativity.
Ricky Valdes
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1489674
08/27/13 09:56 PM
08/27/13 09:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
All 4 alum tanks I made with a real short filler neck
and gas caps(production stuff) and 2 have vents..
I just open the cap and look in with a flash light..
then change the fuel and put the cap back on.. pretty
simple... (to keep it air tight, fill it all the way up)
I would anodize the tank. It is cheap to get done & you have a few choices of what colors you can get done. All of the race/street fuel fittings we make at work for customers are anodized for this reason. Mainly the import guys that run E-85
 You should have all of your fittings hard anodised , all of the aluminum lines done inside and outside as well as the cell inside and outside 
I looked into having the inside of my handmade tanks done on the inside and found out it was not able to be done at a affordable price.
This place did that kind of work as they applied dow7 to my mag dragster body, but was not able to hard anodize the inside of my fuel tanks at any price.
Kinsler Fuel injection is who warned me of the problem many years ago when they did my injection.
These are tanks out of my early TADs, the later tanks have a internal vent that went out of the bottom, very trick.
And a 632 donovan big chief injected on methanol, 1993. This car had a plastic Jaz fuel cell in it, perfect for alky use IMO. Actually this car had 2 fuel cells in it, the second held racing gas for the nitrous injection.
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1489677
08/28/13 12:18 PM
08/28/13 12:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 588
Franklin, TN
23T Hemmee
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 588
Franklin, TN
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Quote:
Sorry but you will have problems sooner than later.
Methanol/ethanol will corrode the aluminum eventually. It's best to drain the cell after use.
There is no real timetable because every situation is different but it will happen. The top lubes today definitely do help but won't totally stop it. An old trick that I learned from an alky racer back in the 70's was to "pickle the tank" with a mix of 1 gallon of vinegar to 3 gallons of water, let it sit overnight or longer. I had a Moon T-tank on my dragboat that had started to corrode, don't ask me what the chemical process is, I don't know but it worked. Could go a whole season without getting any chalky residue in the fuel filter, which for me was the warning sign that corrosion was starting. Treating the tank at beginning and end of season has become a regular part of preventive maintenance program.
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Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
[Re: Copper Dart]
#1489678
08/28/13 02:35 PM
08/28/13 02:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Well maybe the insides of the fuel lines arnt affected nor are the insides of the say,..... fuel pump, float bowl, filler tubes, vent lines.
Naw, everything is working just fine right now. You don't know what you are talking about.
Those are all steel part that you show.. so its rust
and rust is caused by water and air.... in the fuel
lab we went to stainless tanks when we first started
the methanol(M-85) program but when we went to E-85
we changed over to blow molded plastic tanks with a
vapor barrier inside to control the permeation of
the fuel through the plastic(vapors seep through)
and kill the emissions that we had to play with..
there is a few ways to eliminate the corrosion...
either eliminate the water, or eliminate the air...
in reality you cant do that so plastic is the easiest
way to eliminate the corrosion
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