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440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
#1471740
07/21/13 10:16 PM
07/21/13 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
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I have a 440 in a e bod,lunati 303 cam,worked 452 heads,391 rear auto.
has 3/8 sender,fuel line,eddy mech. pump,eddy rpm intake,850 holly dbl. pumper msd 6a ign.,headers,2 1/2" exhaust. runs like a champ and falls apart just a tic past 5 grand. I've tried jetting,timing,fuel pumps,no air cleaner,gas cap,2 different dizzy's all with the exact same results.
I would think it should pull past 5 grand but cant figure what's hanging it up. seems to be fuel but plugs are a nice tan color.
Any idea's??? I'm stumped.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471741
07/21/13 10:23 PM
07/21/13 10:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1471743
07/21/13 10:27 PM
07/21/13 10:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Not knowing whether you've performed the mods to the car, or purchased it that way?....but any chance the MSD may have a 5000 RPM rev chip limiter?   
 Oh yea try different chips if it as a limiter.
The other thing that can cause that is too much preload on the lifters and it pumping open. you can try taking a 1/2 turn at a time out of adjusters to see what it does don't be afraid of a little ticking!
Are the heads milled and or block decked much?
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Dodgem]
#1471745
07/21/13 10:36 PM
07/21/13 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
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heads been cc'd to 85 so a little cut,can see the numbers shaved a little bit. no rev limiter. didn't think of backing out and hitting it again but will try. just running stock rockers for now.
I did not build the engine so not much help there.
maybe a set of rocker shaft shims???
Last edited by stinger; 07/21/13 10:40 PM.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471746
07/21/13 11:10 PM
07/21/13 11:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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As you know I'd want to pin it to fuel or ign first. Sounds like you have a killer fuel delivery system but I'd T at the carb inlet & run a neoprene line to a vac gauge with a psi side & tape it to the windshield & need several psi at the offending rpm/load. since you've been dealing with this for awhile I'd go ahead & go to the trouble of subbing in a regular electronic ign & see what happens. Is rotor phasing close enough? NAPA has an Echlin rotor with a .060" longer blade that doesn't fix phasing but helps it as it reduces the distance the spark has to jump. MO-3000 for $8 dollars & change out the door. As said check preload. I'm gonna WAG that it is the Might Sputter & Die system. Holler how it goes.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: strokerchall]
#1471748
07/21/13 11:58 PM
07/21/13 11:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
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Quote:
do you have a carb spacer?
maybe the fuel is boiling?
no and doudt it.
don't think its pre load or pump up.engine runs great until the 5 grand mark and after it falls flat.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Dodgem]
#1471749
07/22/13 12:21 AM
07/22/13 12:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,399
Posting from 1893 in NW FL
TheBlueBeast
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,399
Posting from 1893 in NW FL
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Quote:
May be running out of fuel. run it up to 4800 let off completely then back to the boards if it then pulls up to say 5500 then you know your fuel is not keeping up!
I had a 383 that did this. the pump push rod was worn and when i replaced it the problem vanished.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471752
07/22/13 03:22 AM
07/22/13 03:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
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Obviously you have hydraulic lifters.. If original Mopar OE stockers 5K or a little over is all you will get... Just my $0.02... 
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1471758
07/22/13 09:34 AM
07/22/13 09:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,630
North Central Florida
eightlitermopar
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,630
North Central Florida
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We had a 383 falling flat like that. It was the fuel pump pushrod. I second or third this opinion. Just looking at the rod you can't tell much of a difference. I'd change that and see what happens.....
Mopar or no car
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: eightlitermopar]
#1471759
07/22/13 10:23 AM
07/22/13 10:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
We had a 383 falling flat like that. It was the fuel pump pushrod. I second or third this opinion. Just looking at the rod you can't tell much of a difference.
I'd change that and see what happens.....
p
Hook up a gauge and road test, does not sound like fuel to me though. Light throttle in to 5000 and then roll into it. Should have enough fuel in the bowls for a second or two.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471760
07/22/13 05:11 PM
07/22/13 05:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
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I would be very interested in a solution too. I have the same problem on my 440,but have tried almost everything listed and more,3-cams/gears/carbs/ignition-3-of them/exhaust/timing /springs/fuel-pumps/shim-rockers......whats left? Heads and a lighter car
70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471761
07/22/13 05:50 PM
07/22/13 05:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
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Make sure the gas tank vent isn't plugged. Try it with the gas cap either loose or off to verify.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471764
07/22/13 09:09 PM
07/22/13 09:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
Lefty
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
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Lot's of good suggestions. I'd add making sure the throttle plates are fully open with the pedal at WOT. If that's OK, I'd substitute in a different coil. You didn't say "how" it falls flat. If it's draining the fuel line like in a plugged tank intake they usually just die and then when you back off they start back up in my experience. If the acceleration goes flat with a burble it's the rev limiter kicking in if it cuts individual cylinders. If the limiter is the type that kills all spark it want's to put you through the front window. Just some more ideas, hope you find it soon...
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1471765
07/22/13 10:08 PM
07/22/13 10:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
I would be very interested in a solution too.
I have the same problem on my 440,but have tried almost everything listed and more,3-cams/gears/carbs/ignition-3-of them/exhaust/timing /springs/fuel-pumps/shim-rockers......whats left?
Heads and a lighter car
your blower is too small......
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Lefty]
#1471766
07/22/13 10:08 PM
07/22/13 10:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
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Quote:
Lot's of good suggestions. I'd add making sure the throttle plates are fully open with the pedal at WOT. If that's OK, I'd substitute in a different coil.
You didn't say "how" it falls flat. If it's draining the fuel line like in a plugged tank intake they usually just die and then when you back off they start back up in my experience. If the acceleration goes flat with a burble it's the rev limiter kicking in if it cuts individual cylinders. If the limiter is the type that kills all spark it want's to put you through the front window.
Just some more ideas, hope you find it soon...
it sounds like it just starts breaking up with a fast loss of power,let off and its fine. runs great up to 5ooo fine after.idles perfect,starts easy all the time.great running engine other then the 5 grand limit. there is no rev limiter.
the coil is old though,sound like it could be a coil? it's a blaster 2. I thought coils just took a dump and that's that.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1471768
07/22/13 10:23 PM
07/22/13 10:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
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Quote:
My blaster II is like 10-15 years old. It's been on 4 engines. does it Peter out in the burn out box at 5k? or is it down track?
street car so down track 
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Dodgem]
#1471770
07/22/13 11:52 PM
07/22/13 11:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
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Quote:
If it sounds like it's breaking up fuel supply or valve springs!
my thoughts as well. I'll do the fuel test in a few days and post my findings.
the spring kit for this cam is cheap and single spring so should be an easy swap if need be.
Thanks All!
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: dennismopar73]
#1471772
07/23/13 06:12 AM
07/23/13 06:12 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
It will be fuel delivery! either the pump not up to task, or the way the fuel is ran to the carb (s)
Unless the springs have broken the stocker will go past 5500!
I went through this over well over a decade ago, two different sets of MP springs! All crap. Checked the pressures before and after a weeks run time and was horrified how much they dropped off.
Ended up buying a set of battleship steel springs and taking out the inner spring to get the pressure I wanted. Even after years of use still within spec and the motor has been buzzed hard to 7200 RPM.
Before that it would get to around 5000-5500 and pop and frat like it had a bad misfire from a coil of ignition box.
Check the springs, check the springs, check the springs. Really not that hard to pull two and have them checked.
Ignition wise I ended up using a gold NASCAR box, Blaster II coil, and Moroso spiral core 8mm wires all of which made no difference till I changed springs.
Hell I even indexed the distributor rotor with a clear ignition cap and timing light, still got the cap too.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: gdonovan]
#1471776
07/23/13 11:13 AM
07/23/13 11:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
Sixpak
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Quote:
Quote:
It will be fuel delivery! either the pump not up to task, or the way the fuel is ran to the carb (s)
Unless the springs have broken the stocker will go past 5500!
I went through this over well over a decade ago, two different sets of MP springs! All crap. Checked the pressures before and after a weeks run time and was horrified how much they dropped off.
Ended up buying a set of battleship steel springs and taking out the inner spring to get the pressure I wanted. Even after years of use still within spec and the motor has been buzzed hard to 7200 RPM.
Before that it would get to around 5000-5500 and pop and frat like it had a bad misfire from a coil of ignition box.
Check the springs, check the springs, check the springs. Really not that hard to pull two and have them checked.
Ignition wise I ended up using a gold NASCAR box, Blaster II coil, and Moroso spiral core 8mm wires all of which made no difference till I changed springs.
Hell I even indexed the distributor rotor with a clear ignition cap and timing light, still got the cap too.
MP springs are junk - you learned the hard way.
Not sure what rockers are on the motor but I had a small block that would break up at 4500. Was running stock non adjustable rockers. Heads and blocked were milled. Hydraulic lifters would pump up at 4500 and cause valve float. Adjustable rockers cured it. I'd start with the valve train - adjustable rockers/valve lash, valve springs, and look at fuel delivery too.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Sixpak]
#1471777
07/23/13 01:11 PM
07/23/13 01:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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My : Valve springs. R.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: dezduster]
#1471781
07/24/13 02:20 PM
07/24/13 02:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,313
Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,313
Omaha Ne
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Silly question, what is the RPM range of the cam??? 1. Fuel pressure, easily checked by installing a fuel pressure gauge and making a quick test run. If you're dropping below 6 psi you have to resolve the issue. 2. Try a run without the air cleaner, I got my backside kicked years ago by a big block that had to small of an air cleaner on it. Another similar situation was due to the air cleaner lid being too close to the top of the carb due to hood clearance. 3. Try un corking the motor. A restricted exhaust will drive you nuts. Think, mouse nest, collapsed baffle, heat riser stuck 1/2 shut etc. 4. Valve springs. I am not familiar with the 303 lunati but if it has steep ramps, springs, weak or not will cause the problem. IF that is the culprit it may also be prone to burping gas out of the carb due to the valves floating.(should be apparent with the hood and air cleaner off. One can make a series of test runs to establish the exact RPM that the problem occurs. Install .060 t.125 shims under the springs and repeat the test. IF the RPM moves up you have found the issue. 5. Along shot would be other valve train issues, IE: geometry, rocker arms/ interference, pushrod length etc. keep us posted 
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471783
07/24/13 02:38 PM
07/24/13 02:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
Dave Watt
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
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Quote:
and hemi race springs what ever that means. they are single with dampners.
My buddy had those springs on his '68 Pure Stock Hemi, it fell on it's face at 5,300 RPM's, changed to a different spring, now it will go 6,000 no problem.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Dave Watt]
#1471784
07/24/13 04:50 PM
07/24/13 04:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,313
Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,313
Omaha Ne
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Quote:
The Lunati 303 is one of the larger of the Voodoo cams, which have quick ramps. That's why I say springs. The OP didn't build the heads himself so he doesn't know what they are.
Quick ramps require a stiff spring 
Quote:
Quote:
and hemi race springs what ever that means. they are single with dampners.
My buddy had those springs on his '68 Pure Stock Hemi, it fell on it's face at 5,300 RPM's, changed to a different spring, now it will go 6,000 no problem.
it would appear as though the springs may be the issue, some of the things I suggested earlier are fairly easy things to check and can definitely cause the problem described. if the two above quotes are factual then the springs are probably at fault.
 
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471786
07/27/13 08:44 PM
07/27/13 08:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Alright it ain't fuel starvation. EDIT got a points or electronic dizzy/system that you can sub in for a test? I feel lucky
Last edited by RapidRobert; 07/27/13 08:46 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: Sinitro]
#1471787
07/28/13 05:16 AM
07/28/13 05:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,043
State of Confusion
hp383
Just a normal tag again
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Just a normal tag again
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,043
State of Confusion
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Quote:
Obviously you have hydraulic lifters..
If original Mopar OE stockers 5K or a little over is all you will get...
Just my $0.02...
My 383 had a 292/509 old school purple shaft with stock springs and rockers, and Summit hyd lifters. It would pull hard up to 7200 and would keep going if I didn't shift or back off.
Previous owner used it for bracket racing and would hold it to 8000 on the shifts.
When I first installed the engine it would fall flat at about 4800-5000, mine ended up being a bad carburetor. I switched from the Holley it came with to a new Eddy 750 and wow, that woke it up.
Latter added the tunnel ram and a second Eddy 750 and I couldn't stop giggling.
But it seems the OP had determined its not a fuel issue.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: 52savoy]
#1471789
07/28/13 07:52 AM
07/28/13 07:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
The usual.. mopar valve spring bashing  
And mine (springs recommend by MP) had lost 50% of its rated pressure in a week as did the next set. I wasted hundreds of dollars chasing the problem not to mention track time and more $$$ towing too and fro.
Good luck with your springs, russian roulette if you ask me.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: gdonovan]
#1471790
07/28/13 12:30 PM
07/28/13 12:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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I can't vouch for what's sold now. My springs have proven themselves by lasting all these years on nothing less than .600 lift. What else can I say other than I'll run them as long as the pressures stay up. 1970s and counting  As far a motor not revving...I agree with you guys. It can be gas delivery(pressure or adjustments), timing, valvetrain and possibly internal engine. I'm a big fan of common sense..I would never jump to the conclusion it's springs before eliminating other potential problems first
Last edited by 52savoy; 07/28/13 12:36 PM.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: 52savoy]
#1471791
07/28/13 01:33 PM
07/28/13 01:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
I'm a big fan of common sense..I would never jump to the conclusion it's springs before eliminating other potential problems first
Which I already pointed out, taping a fuel pressure gauge to the windshield and going for a ride would eliminate the fuel pump as a possible issue.
Cheap stuff first.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471792
07/28/13 02:15 PM
07/28/13 02:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,409
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,409
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
I picked up a summit dualfeed line with filter and gauge and a separate line to tape the gauge to the windshield. I got a constant 4 psi with no drop in pressure,engine still falls at 5 grand. I took theline off and installed it to the feed line and get a chatty 6.5 psi. I also replaced the fuel pump rod with a mancini one.
I would verify the needle and seat are correct. There is a certain size needed to allow enough fuel to enter the bowls. If to small you may be starving for fuel even though you have pressure. Pressure is flow to resistance.
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: stinger]
#1471793
07/28/13 02:51 PM
07/28/13 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,313
Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,313
Omaha Ne
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Quote:
I picked up a summit dualfeed line with filter and gauge and a separate line to tape the gauge to the windshield. I got a constant 4 psi with no drop in pressure,engine still falls at 5 grand. I took theline off and installed it to the feed line and get a chatty 6.5 psi. I also replaced the fuel pump rod with a mancini one.
Ok, Lets assume fuel pressure is OK.
Does it drop at the same RPM in a 3 gears???
1. try the air cleaner off, (been bit twice by that, and its a kwik test,
2. if your running Chrysler electronic ignition you can try another control box, (long shot but again cheap and kwik)
3. next, I would try uncorking it,
4. valve spring time
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Re: 440 falls off at 5 grand...Stumped
[Re: NITROUSN]
#1471794
07/28/13 10:34 PM
07/28/13 10:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
I picked up a summit dualfeed line with filter and gauge and a separate line to tape the gauge to the windshield. I got a constant 4 psi with no drop in pressure,engine still falls at 5 grand. I took theline off and installed it to the feed line and get a chatty 6.5 psi. I also replaced the fuel pump rod with a mancini one.
I would verify the needle and seat are correct. There is a certain size needed to allow enough fuel to enter the bowls. If to small you may be starving for fuel even though you have pressure. Pressure is flow to resistance.
I've thought of this but not checked into it yet.bought a used carb and rebuilt it with a fast kit. I still think it's a fuel issue,car dose not sputter or pop,just sounds like running out of fuel. cant find info on what size needle seats are used.???
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