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Adding power window relays
#142362
10/27/08 04:47 PM
10/27/08 04:47 PM
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Farmland, IN
Ludington1
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A member suggested this some time ago and I am trying it this week. I want to add relays to my power windows to get the draw out of the dash and hopefully speed them up a little bit.
I am attaching a pic of the relays I am using and have noted where each wire is going. This is using two Bosch 30Amp relays for each window, with the 12v coming from a wire on the hot terminal on the starter through the firewall to a fuse, then split off power for each window. For each window I have a setup as seen in this pic. I am getting 12v to the relays, but no luck making the windows work. I PM'd the member who suggested this, but I figured in the meantime I would see if anyone else sees what I'm doing wrong and maybe someone else can learn from this process.
I found these little holders at a stereo shop that holds two relays. My doubt is that I have the power coming IN on the purple wire as noted in the pic, and a small jumper wire shares that power to the other relay. Is that where I'm messed up... does each relay need a separate 12v feed, or it should work as-is?
Any other tips or suggestions are welcome!
Thanks in advance!
Darren
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: Ludington1]
#142363
10/27/08 04:56 PM
10/27/08 04:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,936
Richmond, VA
VT_Dart
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You don't need a different 12v feed to each one as only one relay should be pumping 12v through to the 30 terminal at one time.
Is the switch giving a 12v signal when you hit it? An easy test is to simply touch either 85 or 86 to ground and the other to postive on a battery. You should hear them click. If they're good, then move onto your wiring. Check for 12v at the 87 terminal. If you have it, then check to make sure your ground (85 and 87a in your case), is a good ground. If that checks out, then move onto the switch input. Make sure that the switch is putting out 12v to energize that relay. If that checks out, then everything is working fine.
Darrah Heath
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: VT_Dart]
#142365
10/27/08 05:02 PM
10/27/08 05:02 PM
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Farmland, IN
Ludington1
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Thanks for the reply!
I'm looking at another online diagram of the relays... do I need to have 30 bringing in the 12v and 87 going to the motor? I'm wondering if I have those backwards. Relays are all brand new and I have both doors set up like this right now and neither works, so I am leaning towards wiring.
The actual power window switches all are known working as well.
For the ground, I have that ring terminal going to a bolt in the door... am I correct that the door frame itself is a good ground?
Darren
Last edited by Ludington1; 10/27/08 05:04 PM.
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: Ludington1]
#142367
10/27/08 05:13 PM
10/27/08 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,936
Richmond, VA
VT_Dart
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The 87 vs. 30 does matter depending on what you're doing. 30 is your common, so it is in contact with 87a when at rest and 87 when energized. So you have ground going to the motors at rest, and 12v+ when energized (switch activated). Is that what you're trying to do? I'm still leaning toward the switch input. I'm not familiar with the power window switches, but they may also be putting out a ground signal rather than a positive. Grab a multimeter and see what your wire coming from the switch is doing when you hit the switch. Is it pumping out 12v+ or a ground? Focus on getting that relay to energize first. All it takes is a negative on 85 or 86 and a positive on the opposite terminal. Listen for that click, if you hear it then you're in business. If not, then something is wrong with either your 85 or 86 terminal. If you hear that relay clicking then you can move onto actually getting it to power the window motor.
Darrah Heath
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: VT_Dart]
#142368
10/27/08 05:27 PM
10/27/08 05:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
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1_WILD_RT
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Quote:
The 87 vs. 30 does matter depending on what you're doing. 30 is your common, so it is in contact with 87a when at rest and 87 when energized. So you have ground going to the motors at rest, and 12v+ when energized (switch activated). Is that what you're trying to do? I'm still leaning toward the switch input. I'm not familiar with the power window switches, but they may also be putting out a ground signal rather than a positive. Grab a multimeter and see what your wire coming from the switch is doing when you hit the switch. Is it pumping out 12v+ or a ground? Focus on getting that relay to energize first. All it takes is a negative on 85 or 86 and a positive on the opposite terminal. Listen for that click, if you hear it then you're in business. If not, then something is wrong with either your 85 or 86 terminal. If you hear that relay clicking then you can move onto actually getting it to power the window motor.
 break it down into sections... The window switches should provide ground to both output pins in the at rest position, moving the switch in either direction breaks the ground & applies power... Each window harness has a 12v power source but no ground, ground is feed from the master switch therefore in the neutral position both legs are basically a straight through connection back to the master, that way the master can apply power through either leg without grounding the signal.. or the window switch can isolate the motor & apply ground...Crazy stuff..
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: VT_Dart]
#142369
10/27/08 05:34 PM
10/27/08 05:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,671
Andrewh
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 This is how I would expect it to be wired. I don' think you can wire 87 and 87a at the same time. one is on with no power applied, the other is on with power applied. I think you wired it a bit backwards.
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#142373
10/27/08 06:20 PM
10/27/08 06:20 PM
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Posts: 3,072
Farmland, IN
Ludington1
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Thanks to everyone for your help. I'll get back out there in the morning and see if the relays will click. Looking at the passenger side door (I'll have to tackle the master switch afterwards): On the back of the window switch there are 5 prongs. 2 go to purple (one with white trace), 2 go to pink (one with white trace) and 1 is yellow. Those 5 wires go to an approx. 12" wrapped harness (which I would like to NOT unwrap) and out of that harness I have a single pink, single purple, and single yellow wire. I have the pink and the purple connected to the leads for pin 86 of the relays. Where does the yellow need to go? Thanks again Moparts  Darren
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#142377
10/27/08 09:47 PM
10/27/08 09:47 PM
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Farmland, IN
Ludington1
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Tried that quickly (Connector A to Pin 86) and no luck. Dug this out of the FSM, for the factory wiring harness. Looks like with the original harness, the yellow wire at each switch is the input of the 12v. I know I have all the facts staring me in the face, but any other suggestions? I'll check in the morning to see if the relays are clicking, but with the original harness in place just last week all 4 windows worked (from the master switch and from each single switch) but they were painfully slow when I met up with DennisH and had to put them up in the rain. 
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#142379
10/27/08 10:17 PM
10/27/08 10:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Farmland, IN
Ludington1
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Quote:
Are all five wires in the connector & attached to the switch? Like I stated earlier the yellow is power for each of the three non master switches, all original grounding is done throught the master & a ring connector on the drivers "A" pillar...So for any window to work the master has to be plugged in & the single switch to that location has to be plugged in..If you run the window from the master power is supplied by the tan wire...
Randy - maybe this is where I've "seen the light"... on that passenger door I was removing the original harness as I was putting in the relays. I now see exactly what you're saying, I'll put it back together in the morning and update the post. I had gotten it in my head that this was replacing the factory harness, instead of just getting rid of the current draw.
Darren
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#142381
10/27/08 10:21 PM
10/27/08 10:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Farmland, IN
Ludington1
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When I clean up my mess of wiring, I'll clean up my mess of a thread and hopefully someone else can use it. I owe you a few  Darren
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: Ludington1]
#142386
10/28/08 12:32 AM
10/28/08 12:32 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
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Aurora, Colorado
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It might have been me who suggested using two SPDT relays to take the load off the switches for the power windows. If I recall correctly, the yellow wire in the switch harness is a direct +12v source comming from the window switch relay (power only on when ignition switch is on), and then going to a circuit breaker that gets power from the ammeter connection in the dash.
If you tap (splice) into that yellow wire for power you won't need to add any new wires.
The rest if the connections are just made to the factory motor connector. Seperate the factory connector going to the motor, and the side that goes to the switches is now used to energize each side if the relay, the connector wires going to the motor now connect the the high current part of the relay (the common side.) On the SPDT relay, one side is connected to the +12v power from the yellow wire, the other throw is connected to ground. Each relay will have two ground connections one for the relay coil and the other to groung the wingow motor through the relay. The idea is that both normally closed contacts of the relay(s) are grounded, so both wires to the motor are grounded when no window switch is pressed. When you press the window switch, you only apply +12 volts to one relay at a time for up or down because when the 12 volts energizes one relay, the relay switch breaks its ground contact and switches the the +12 volts supplied from the yellow wire, while the other relay stays grounded.
The relays will need to be grounded to the door, and my door seems to get a good ground through the hinges, but you could add a ground wire if your having trouble getting a ground.
Anyhow, I hope that helps explain the workings. It looks like you have a good idea of what to do, and that connector looks really nice. If you need more help I could draw up a schematic with the realy terminals identified.
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 451Mopar]
#142387
10/28/08 01:36 AM
10/28/08 01:36 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
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If you can find these Potter & Brumsfield VBA-1001 relays they are pretty nice for this application, they really reduce the number of connections, but they also use a special plug connector. The only source I found for these was TYCOs authorized distrubitor.
If you were wiring this relay in this is where the connections would go:
After disconnecting the two wire connector goint to the window motor...
A & F - connect to the switch side wires.
B & E - connect to the motor side wires.
C - connects to +12 volt 12 AWG yellow wire.
D - connects to ground.
my photo is not real clear, but 'D' is the upper connections and jumps over the connection that is 'C'.
Last edited by 451Mopar; 10/28/08 01:49 AM.
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#142389
10/28/08 02:04 AM
10/28/08 02:04 AM
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Joined: May 2008
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Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
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Quote:
Are all five wires in the connector & attached to the switch? Like I stated earlier the yellow is power for each of the three non master switches, all original grounding is done throught the master & a ring connector on the drivers "A" pillar...So for any window to work the master has to be plugged in & the single switch to that location has to be plugged in..If you run the window from the master power is supplied by the tan wire...
The Yellow wire is the key, it supplies power to all four switches. In the original wiring the three single switches have to GROUND through the master switch to work, but with the relays, the grounding is now through the relay only. Believe me, one of the reasons I did this is the ground prong wire on my master switch was melted pretty good.
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 451Mopar]
#142390
10/28/08 02:59 AM
10/28/08 02:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
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1_WILD_RT
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Quote:
If you can find these Potter & Brumsfield VBA-1001 relays they are pretty nice for this application, they really reduce the number of connections, but they also use a special plug connector. The only source I found for these was TYCOs authorized distrubitor.
If you were wiring this relay in this is where the connections would go:
After disconnecting the two wire connector goint to the window motor...
A & F - connect to the switch side wires.
B & E - connect to the motor side wires.
C - connects to +12 volt 12 AWG yellow wire.
D - connects to ground.
my photo is not real clear, but 'D' is the upper connections and jumps over the connection that is 'C'.
On one side it makes for a really clean install, but the standard format Bosch relays are so easy to find & so flexable in what you can do with them...I doubt it would be worth it to many people.. If someone wants to try it here's a link to the data sheet... http://www.sourceresearch.com/potter/Potter-Brumfield-pdf.cfm?PdfPage=vba_dsw.pdf
You'll need to order the connectors seperately along with the terminals & they require a special crimping tool... Like I was saying, Bosch relays... 
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Re: Adding power window relays
[Re: 451Mopar]
#142392
10/28/08 10:42 AM
10/28/08 10:42 AM
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1_WILD_RT
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Quote:
Also looking at the photo of the dual relay setup, the 87a wires should be larger gauge as they have to handle the same current as the +12 volt side.
Go back & look at my first post in this thread... 
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Re: Adding power window relays - Updated
[Re: 451Mopar]
#142394
10/28/08 08:54 PM
10/28/08 08:54 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Farmland, IN
Ludington1
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OK guys, got it all together today and the windows are working. I've got to replace the grounds with some heavier gauge wire, as stated above, but they ARE working. As suspected, my original photo shows how to correctly wire the relays, but the factory harness has to be there (which was where I screwed up yesterday). Thanks guys Darren
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