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HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
#1405293
03/20/13 11:29 AM
03/20/13 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
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I know a few guys who have tried it, but never got it to run on the street. They did the surge tank under the hood to gravity feed the injector pump, but they say the system is like an on - off switch with no part throttle. And no accelerator pump so they had to spray gas down the stacks to start it. Not good for a street car!
I remember an article in Hot Rod many years ago where they claimed someone had it working good. Someone tried it on a hot rod at drag week in 2010, but they had problems and dropped out.
Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?
EFI is out.
Thanks, Joel
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#1405295
03/20/13 12:24 PM
03/20/13 12:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 588
Franklin, TN
23T Hemmee
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 588
Franklin, TN
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Quote:
Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?
EFI is out.
Thanks, Joel
It kind of depends on how much aggravation you're willing to put up with. The starting problem can be fixed with a small electric primer pump tee'd into the main supply line between the mechanical pump and the barrel valve. It is absolutely essential that you have a 1-way check valve protecting the electric pump when the engine fires. I used a pushbutton starter button to activate the electric pump for a few seconds, which will push the fuel into the main line, then up through the barrel valve and into the individual nozzles, most importantly purging all of the air out of the system. Obviously not very scientific, something you'll just have to learn by trial and error. I did this in a jet boat and had the advantage of being able to hear the fuel going into the nozzles so was able to figure out pretty quickly how long to hold the primer button. The boat had twin side tanks that were well below the level of the injector pump and this system worked flawlessly for the cost of a cheap electric pump and a -6 check valve.
Unfortunatley, the lack of accellerator pump is the issue with injection on the street. To get the drivability, you have to lean the barrel valve out enough to keep from loading up and throwing black smoke out the exhaust but then you'll get stumble if you go from idle to WOT. If you fatten the valve up enough for performance, you'll probably be chugging black smoke like a deisel at idle. It is possible to find the happy medium but its a very small window and changes with the temperature. I used to carry a couple of 7/16ths with me on the boat at all times so I could adjust the barrel valve at a moments notice if needed. Thats the aggravation I mentioned in the first paragraph, I didn't mind it 30 years ago when I was younger, not sure I'd have the energy to do it now..... lol
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: 23T Hemmee]
#1405296
03/20/13 01:05 PM
03/20/13 01:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 684
St. Charles, MO.
Slingshot383
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 684
St. Charles, MO.
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With E-85 your tuning window would be bigger, but the only way around the barrel valve rich/ lean idle issue would be to use something like Waterman's Injectorator that Bill Mitchells Performance used to sell.
1994 Undercover Chassis 125" altered
stack injected big block, soon blown and injected
Member of The Torque and Recoil Club
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: 23T Hemmee]
#1405301
03/20/13 08:08 PM
03/20/13 08:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Big Squeeze
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
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Quote:
... To get the drivability, you have to lean the barrel valve out enough to keep from loading up and throwing black smoke out the exhaust but then you'll get stumble if you go from idle to WOT. If you fatten the valve up enough for performance, you'll probably be chugging black smoke like a deisel at idle. It is possible to find the happy medium but its a very small window and changes with the temperature....
A way to do that would be to have it fattened up and use the fuel pump on/off lever to lean it out while idling or cruising...I know Joel has an O2 sensor so what I'd do is mount it on the dash and when you come to a stop just push the lever forward to a "stop" that's preset so it'll idle clean...before you take off pull the lever back to the other stop that's the "all the way open setting"...at cruise put it somewhere between while watching the O2....now all the car would need is a Lenco, spool, street legal soft sidewall tires, a four link and have it run on race gas to be a REAL man's car!!! LOL....talk about a handful on the street!!! LOL  
If you can't handle the truth, you're living a lie.......
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: Big Squeeze]
#1405302
03/21/13 10:14 AM
03/21/13 10:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
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Thanks for all the replies. One thing I am learning is that I have a lot to learn if I want to try this. Sounds like a real process. 
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: dogdays]
#1405303
03/21/13 11:08 AM
03/21/13 11:08 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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drive those cool stacks on the street
For the complete experience, drop a handful of dirt down the stacks every few weeks.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: polyspheric]
#1405305
03/21/13 11:53 AM
03/21/13 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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The big problem is it is what it is, a steady state direct injection. So idle is super fat, as described, off idle will also be very fat, leaning out to max hp rich if you use a racing barrel valve for fuel metering. The first thing I would do would be to get a properly sized barrel valve for your particular motor combo on gasoline. E85 won't be consistent enough unless you buy it by the barrel and test it for percentage of Ethanol. The next two problems to overcome are the pump shot and lean cruise. I think the simplest would be to use an electric leanout solenoid sold by some of the fuel injection companys, like Rons', set to come on at off idle, the off being at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle. To keep some of the look and save the motor, some type of aircleaner element will need to be put in each stack. Another idle bypass run electrically with a switch in the linkage to shut it the instant the throttle is moved would lean the idle enough to not kill the motor with too much idle fuel going into the crank case and dropping the fuel consumption to acceptable levels. A small, cone shaped filter (Briggs and Stratton racing? Motorcycle?)out of pleated material that could be mounted upside down in the opening or bell of each stack will keep the air clean. I believe this can all be done!
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: Dragula]
#1405307
03/21/13 12:07 PM
03/21/13 12:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,015
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
My set-up...Seems a lot of people commenting that don't own one...
I see electronic injectors in those pictures so technically you don't own one either ...
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#1405308
03/21/13 12:37 PM
03/21/13 12:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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Quote:
Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?
Thanks, Joel
The simple answer is no! Too many issues, most of which are mentioned above, to get mechanical injection working stable with gas on the street. You can get it to work with Methanol because the tuning window for methanol is so wide that it can tolerate the fat idle, but not with gas. That's why street versions of stack systems are EFI.
One significant consideration that EFI takes advantage of, is to time the injection pulse to occur just as the intake valve is starting to open. This eliminates the "pop back" that can happen when untimed fuel is sitting in the runner waiting for the valve to open and cam reversion causes the pop back.
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#1405309
03/21/13 12:55 PM
03/21/13 12:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
Trophy Winner
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Trophy Winner
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?
Thanks, Joel
The simple answer is no! Too many issues, most of which are mentioned above, to get mechanical injection working stable with gas on the street. You can get it to work with Methanol because the tuning window for methanol is so wide that it can tolerate the fat idle, but not with gas. That's why street versions of stack systems are EFI.
One significant consideration that EFI takes advantage of, is to time the injection pulse to occur just as the intake valve is starting to open. This eliminates the "pop back" that can happen when untimed fuel is sitting in the runner waiting for the valve to open and cam reversion causes the pop back.
c'mon 20 spring loaded bypass's a few electric controlled ones a electric fuel pump with a popet....... 
Just get Electronic and be done with it!
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: JohnRR]
#1405310
03/21/13 01:13 PM
03/21/13 01:13 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,388
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,388
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
My set-up...Seems a lot of people commenting that don't own one...
I see electronic injectors in those pictures so technically you don't own one either ...
Mine is efi...Its the best way to make mfi work on the street!
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Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??
[Re: 23T Hemmee]
#1405312
03/21/13 02:56 PM
03/21/13 02:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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One more thing that would make the setup easier to live with; a dial-a-pill system for tuning easily for big weather swings. Pop the hood, twist the knob to a leaner or fatter jet, good to go! It will take a little thought to get all this plumbed out of sight, but I am looking forward to a post on it.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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The new EFI systems in closed loop are just like all the new cars are, throttle position sensors,MAP sensors, wide ban reading and so on, they are the cats meow 
