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4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
#1382491
02/06/13 05:31 PM
02/06/13 05:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
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EL Master
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Lima, Peru
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Hi! I am going thru a set of used carbs that I bought for my 528 HEMI equipped with a Stage V Rat Buster Dual Inline Intake Manifold. I dissassembled the Vacuum Secondaries Diaphragms and turns out Im missing the check ball: http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/155_0506w_holley_4160_short_bowl_conversion/photo_08.htmlDo you think it will be a problem? All my Holley books and the Mopar Muscle article say you should not take it out or it will make the engine bog. Where can I find these if I want to replace them???? Thanks!
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: lewtot184]
#1382497
02/06/13 07:01 PM
02/06/13 07:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
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Quote:
don't put those balls in there, unless you have a death wish.
please elaborate.... 
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#1382498
02/06/13 07:57 PM
02/06/13 07:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
lewtot184
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Quote:
Quote:
don't put those balls in there, unless you have a death wish.
please elaborate....
the check balls will delay the closing of carbs at WOT, at best, and may completely prevent the throttle from closing at WOT. don't believe me?, then try it. been there done that, and survived. if they were designed to delay opening wouldn't they delay closing?
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: lewtot184]
#1382499
02/06/13 08:48 PM
02/06/13 08:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
maximum entropy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
don't put those balls in there, unless you have a death wish.
please elaborate....
the check balls will delay the closing of carbs at WOT, at best, and may completely prevent the throttle from closing at WOT. don't believe me?, then try it. been there done that, and survived. if they were designed to delay opening wouldn't they delay closing?
i never had that happen when running the balls. yes, they are to "control" the opening of the secondaries, but they have nothing to do with throttle closure. if you're saying they'll trap the vacuum above the diaphragm, no. there is a small channel to bleed that off on trailing throttle. if your throttle stuck, it was for a different reason, i think.
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: B G Racing]
#1382503
02/07/13 01:02 PM
02/07/13 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
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Yes, they return no problem with just the spring action in the vacuum diaphragm. This car will use a trans brake too. No footbrake (maybe on accassion). Cam is not wild, but not stock either: Intake- 248@.050 & .604lift >Exhaust- 254@.050 & .591lift >Lobe sep is 114 >lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105 Compression is 10.5:1
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#1382505
02/07/13 01:17 PM
02/07/13 01:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
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What Im thinking is that YES without the check ball the secondaries will open faster because the vaccum signal from the venturi will be pulling air from inside the diaphragm thru a larger hole, rather than from the tiny air bleed groove at the seat of the check ball. They will close just as fast with or without the check ball cause when the vacuum sinal weakens it will just blow the ball off the seat..... Now the only thing I think it might happen is that you might have a BOG from the secondaries opening too fast????? Maybe on a stock engine, but on a high horsepower, BIG CUBES, high intake charge demand engine it wont be a problem???? I mean, I dont think that even without the check ball the vacuum secondaries cant open as fast as a carb with mechanical secondaries..... 
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#1382507
02/07/13 01:24 PM
02/07/13 01:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,786
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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Posts: 25,786
Rio Linda, CA
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Yep, one possible consequence of removing the balls is a bog when the secondaries open too quickly. Easy enough to rectify.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#1382508
02/07/13 01:27 PM
02/07/13 01:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
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Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Also, I think that the bleed port for the vacuum secondaries is above the throttle plates near the venturis, so its unafected by idle vacuum or pulsating vacuum like on race cammed engines......they only work when the vacuum singal is strong when throttles are open and engibe is revving.....
So the balls are there just to restrict excessive singal to the diaphragm to prevent a BOG due to the secondaries opening too fast (on a mild engine), and to open up the bleed passage to aid in faster closing of the secondaries when singal at the venturi drops to atmospheric.....
I guess Im cool leaving those out as long as my HEMI doesnt bog when those things open fast!
I think you just answered all your own questions.You even figured out the linkage bar.It can be adjusted to even help facitilate opening the secondarys. 
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: 383man]
#1382509
02/07/13 01:29 PM
02/07/13 01:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
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Quote:
The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron
That is right!
Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???
528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- 248@.050 & .604lift
>Exhaust- 254@.050 & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#1382510
02/07/13 01:34 PM
02/07/13 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron
That is right!
Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???
528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys
Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: JohnRR]
#1382511
02/07/13 01:39 PM
02/07/13 01:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron
That is right!
Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???
528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys
Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .
Start with a lite spring and give it a whirl.Too lite or two heavy will both cause it to bog.Find that sweet spot.Good tech question and good info. 
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: JohnRR]
#1382512
02/07/13 01:49 PM
02/07/13 01:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
OP
EL Master
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OP
EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron
That is right!
Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???
528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys
Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .
yepper....will do that.
Mopar Muscle article has the check balls withj the yellow spring.
Ill try the red spring without the balls and go from there....
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: domingo]
#1382514
02/07/13 09:41 PM
02/07/13 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron
That is right!
Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???
528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys
Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .
yepper....will do that.
Mopar Muscle article has the check balls withj the yellow spring.
Ill try the red spring without the balls and go from there....
You wont have any balls !!!!  
All kidding aside I agree you will have to try it and see how it works. Good luck , Ron
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Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI
[Re: 383man]
#1382515
02/07/13 10:34 PM
02/07/13 10:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
OP
EL Master
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EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
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