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adding hardened seats, should I? #1379690 02/01/13 11:23 AM 02/01/13 11:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert OP Circle Track
RapidRobert OP Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	915 iron heads going on a DD 451. No strip action at all & limited hot rodding on the street. I could add the seats now if needed or proportion in a small amt (how much?) of race gas just enough for the lead or run em as is (going from 1.60 to 1.74). I do want longevity with this build. Your thoughts please. Thank you for your time. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379691 02/01/13 11:32 AM 02/01/13 11:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,916 usa L lewtot184 master
lewtot184 master L Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,916 usa	i'd add the unleaded seat. there are many variables that contribute to seat recession; such as valve spring seat pressure, engine rpm, a/f ratio. if i remember correctly it was calculated that an engine needs at least .1 gram of lead per gallon to avoid problems. i guess if you know how much lead is in a gallon of race gas then maybe you can figure an alternative to seats.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: lewtot184] #1379692 02/01/13 01:19 PM 02/01/13 01:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376 D dogdays I Live Here
dogdays I Live Here D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376	If you're paying somebody to install the larger valves I'd say do the exhaust seats at the same time. It'll cost a little extra but most of the labor is already in the larger valves. The exhaust seats go first because of the amount of heat they see. R.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379693 02/01/13 01:29 PM 02/01/13 01:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,708 S. Il. U.S.A. 5spdcuda top fuel
5spdcuda top fuel Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,708 S. Il. U.S.A.	If longevity is important I would do it now especially since the larger valve will require some seat/bowl work anyway. In my experience if all you ask for is to have the seats installed there will be a pronounced edge or lip below the new seat which will be really detrimental to good flow. I would either blend it in by hand myself or have the machine shop run a bowl hog or reamer in after the seat installation to smooth the transition into the port bowl.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: 5spdcuda] #1379694 02/01/13 02:21 PM 02/01/13 02:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT M moper I Live Here
moper I Live Here M Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT	If you're going to larger valves anyway and plan to run pump fuels on the street (steady rpm, light/part throttle) and using a decent valve spring I'd call them mandatory. You may not need them. But until you need them you won't know...lol. Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: 5spdcuda] #1379695 02/01/13 02:55 PM 02/01/13 02:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,495 Oregon City, OR Baxter61 top fuel
Baxter61 top fuel Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,495 Oregon City, OR	you can either do it now or pull it apart in 6 months and do it then. i personally would rather do it now.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379696 02/01/13 06:34 PM 02/01/13 06:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 602 N.E.Ohio P pacifica mopar
pacifica mopar P Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 602 N.E.Ohio	Not to disagree with the majority so far but - I could have but did not replace them on my build [stock hemi]. Its been on the road since 2006 and has plenty of miles and 1/4 mile passes on it. I only use pump gas 93 octane with no additives ever. I notice no difference between intial use till now. I'm not saying there isn't wear because I've not taken it apart to check, however "so far so good"

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: Baxter61] #1379697 02/01/13 08:47 PM 02/01/13 08:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	Quote: you can either do it now or pull it apart in 6 months and do it then. i personally would rather do it now. Come on now as thats ridiculous. I have never worried about hardened seats and have never burnt a valve or worn out a seat. Heck the old 440 that was in my 63 since 2006 is still going strong in my buddies Duster and they were just 906 heads that I installed larger valves in. There is nothing wrong with putting the hardened seats in if you feel strongly about it but most of us dont put enough miles on our muscle cars to worry about it that much. I am sure my old 440 has a good 15,000 miles on that eng.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: 383man] #1379698 02/01/13 08:57 PM 02/01/13 08:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich D drew72 enthusiast
drew72 enthusiast D Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich	Anyone that is running old heads without problems is lucky. The seats don't always pound out, but the majority of them do. So I guess it just depends. Do you feel lucky? Well do ya? I would replace them.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: drew72] #1379699 02/01/13 09:03 PM 02/01/13 09:03 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 4,740 Florida BDW master
BDW master Joined: May 2005 Posts: 4,740 Florida	What the average cost for this?

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: drew72] #1379700 02/01/13 09:07 PM 02/01/13 09:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert OP Circle Track
RapidRobert OP Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: Do you feel lucky? Well do ya? not sure . He said $3-4 ea for the seats themselves & $96 labor. I forgot to tell him that the seats are 1.60" & I'm going to 1.74" valves if that changes the labor amt needed live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379701 02/01/13 11:33 PM 02/01/13 11:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,291 Kent, Wa 340SHORTY Truck Nut
340SHORTY Truck Nut Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,291 Kent, Wa	I went to 2.14s and 1.81s, never had a problem... I am truckless..

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: 340SHORTY] #1379702 02/01/13 11:38 PM 02/01/13 11:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,228 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,228 Bend,OR USA	Quote: I went to 2.14s and 1.81s, never had a problem... I think if you use new stainless valves in the old cast iron head the seats will hold up a lot longer than if you kept the stock vlaves in them running unleaded gas It has for me Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: 383man] #1379703 02/02/13 12:42 AM 02/02/13 12:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,471 So Cal autoxcuda Too Many Posts
autoxcuda Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,471 So Cal	Quote: Quote: you can either do it now or pull it apart in 6 months and do it then. i personally would rather do it now. Come on now as thats ridiculous. I have never worried about hardened seats and have never burnt a valve or worn out a seat. Heck the old 440 that was in my 63 since 2006 is still going strong in my buddies Duster and they were just 906 heads that I installed larger valves in. There is nothing wrong with putting the hardened seats in if you feel strongly about it but most of us dont put enough miles on our muscle cars to worry about it that much. I am sure my old 440 has a good 15,000 miles on that eng.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379704 02/02/13 12:44 AM 02/02/13 12:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich D drew72 enthusiast
drew72 enthusiast D Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich	Quote: Quote: Do you feel lucky? Well do ya? not sure . He said $3-4 ea for the seats themselves & $96 labor. I forgot to tell him that the seats are 1.60" & I'm going to 1.74" valves if that changes the labor amt needed He is quoting you for cheap iron seats. See how much more for high nickel seats. He might charge more labor if he is going to bowl blend the new seats in. That has to be done either way but you might save a few bucks if you do that yourself. Of course that would mean that you have to pick the heads up, do the blending and return them. It's best to do that before the final machining on the seats.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: drew72] #1379705 02/02/13 01:38 AM 02/02/13 01:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert OP Circle Track
RapidRobert OP Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	I was going to use the MP porting templates. Will they still work with the hardened seats? live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379706 02/02/13 01:44 AM 02/02/13 01:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,291 Kent, Wa 340SHORTY Truck Nut
340SHORTY Truck Nut Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,291 Kent, Wa	As long as you dont hit them while porting. Id suggest tapeing them up real good in case you have that unplanned slip. When I did mine there was a small ledge that had to be removed to get the bowls blended.. I am truckless..

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: 383man] #1379707 02/02/13 02:15 AM 02/02/13 02:15 AM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 6,566 Downtown Roebuck Ont Twostick Still wishing...
Twostick Still wishing... Joined: May 2003 Posts: 6,566 Downtown Roebuck Ont	Quote: Quote: you can either do it now or pull it apart in 6 months and do it then. i personally would rather do it now. Come on now as thats ridiculous. I have never worried about hardened seats and have never burnt a valve or worn out a seat. Heck the old 440 that was in my 63 since 2006 is still going strong in my buddies Duster and they were just 906 heads that I installed larger valves in. There is nothing wrong with putting the hardened seats in if you feel strongly about it but most of us dont put enough miles on our muscle cars to worry about it that much. I am sure my old 440 has a good 15,000 miles on that eng. A late friend of mine put 200,000 lead free miles on a set of 906's. Engine was built in the early 70's with an old school Crane cam, a 305SS or something like that with the matching springs. It was still nothing to fool with 20 years later before he pulled it down and redid it with a set of SR's and a Comp XE cam. Big spring pressure and sustained high RPM is what will eat them up. Kevin Last edited by Twostick; 02/02/13 02:17 AM.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: 383man] #1379708 02/02/13 03:30 AM 02/02/13 03:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,495 Oregon City, OR Baxter61 top fuel
Baxter61 top fuel Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,495 Oregon City, OR	Quote: Quote: you can either do it now or pull it apart in 6 months and do it then. i personally would rather do it now. Come on now as thats ridiculous. I have never worried about hardened seats and have never burnt a valve or worn out a seat. Heck the old 440 that was in my 63 since 2006 is still going strong in my buddies Duster and they were just 906 heads that I installed larger valves in. There is nothing wrong with putting the hardened seats in if you feel strongly about it but most of us dont put enough miles on our muscle cars to worry about it that much. I am sure my old 440 has a good 15,000 miles on that eng. Ive seen more than 1 set of heads sink valves 4 months to a year after having them done with .500ish lift hyd cams. It can and does happen, i prefer not to take the chance.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: Baxter61] #1379709 02/02/13 10:01 AM 02/02/13 10:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,653 Near Reading PA USA pinkduster master
pinkduster master Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,653 Near Reading PA USA	Unleaded fuel eventually ruined the seats and/or valves in my 69 Charger, 69 Dodge pickup and my 71 Duster. These were all daily driver 318s in the late 80s into the early/mid 90s. When I bought my 71 340 Demon in 92, the heads were so beat (seats/valves) you could hardly drive the car. So from my experiences, whenever I have a set of heads done, I always spend the extra money for new seats.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: pinkduster] #1379710 02/02/13 10:35 AM 02/02/13 10:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,735 North Dakota 6PakBee I Live Here
6PakBee I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,735 North Dakota	I don't think that there is a simple answer to whether hardened seats are desirable or not. There are a lot of variables to consider. What is the quality of the gas in your area? What kind of spring pressure do you have? Cruising operation? WOT operation? Unless you know the effects of all the variables in your area, I'd go with the seats. Least risk option. "We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: drew72] #1379711 02/02/13 06:37 PM 02/02/13 06:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert OP Circle Track
RapidRobert OP Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: He is quoting you for cheap iron seats. See how much more for high nickel seats. If I have him add the seats should I go with these? Stockish cam/light springs/DD, little WOT/87 or 91 non ethanol. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379712 02/02/13 06:52 PM 02/02/13 06:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,377 Houston,Tx. L Lee446 pro stock
Lee446 pro stock L Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,377 Houston,Tx.	One variable that I have not seen mentioned is the casting quality itself. When it comes to blocks, I have had early 440 blocks that were hard as Hillary's heart, and late 70's blocks that machined like aluminum(A bit of exaggeration) It would seem unlikely that heads were cast much different. Some may be hard enough to work fine, others not. I know I have seen several 340 X heads that the valves were so sunk in you would need a big roller just to open the exhausts and that a'int no exageration! I would put the hard seats in, it is cheaper in the long run, both in race gas and peace of mind!

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: Lee446] #1379713 02/02/13 10:30 PM 02/02/13 10:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,300 Northern Indiana Dunnuck Racing master
Dunnuck Racing master Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,300 Northern Indiana	The cheap street 360 I have posted in the Race/ Engine section had 15,000 miles on the factory valves and seats since the valve job had been done. I pulled them off to test a set of stock RPM heads recently. The exhaust valves are sunk so far in the heads its hard to believe it ran as good as it did. And the E heads averaged only 5 horsepower and 5 lbs ft more. So I can believe guys can see little change in performance even if the seats are beat in a mild engine. This engine was in a motorhome before and saw towing duty,so the extra stress may have helped valve recession along. I used pump gas and on occasion a lead replacement additive,but not at every fill. My current 440 tow vehicle got hardened seats added,just as insurance. Keith www.dunnuckracing.com

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379714 02/02/13 10:33 PM 02/02/13 10:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich D drew72 enthusiast
drew72 enthusiast D Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich	Quote: Quote: He is quoting you for cheap iron seats. See how much more for high nickel seats. If I have him add the seats should I go with these? Stockish cam/light springs/DD, little WOT/87 or 91 non ethanol. Definitely want the good seats if you're gonna do it. The cheap cast seats are okay for intake seats but you want good seats for the exhaust. Well tite or Martin Wells are two good brand names.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: drew72] #1379715 02/02/13 10:42 PM 02/02/13 10:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert OP Circle Track
RapidRobert OP Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Man it's sure sounding like I should do it right the first time (which is what I am always preaching on here ) with some GOOD seats on the ex side. Thanks guys for all the info/suggestions/recommendations & time you took to post on this issue to enlighten me live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: RapidRobert] #1379716 02/02/13 11:09 PM 02/02/13 11:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,799 ILL M MLR426 master
MLR426 master M Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,799 ILL	I've commented on this subject many times, if you wanna do the rebuild once put in the seat inserts it is the only way to do it. Once the old valve seat areas get beat out and get into dead soft cast iron it's over. Engines used for towing or heavy vehicles causes extreme heat on the exhaust side and super heat the seat area because it doesn't transfer heat into the head fast enough. MLR426 Performance Plus Cylinder Head Odin, IL Last edited by MLR426; 02/03/13 12:06 PM.

Re: adding hardened seats, should I? [Re: MLR426] #1379717 02/04/13 02:21 PM 02/04/13 02:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376 D dogdays I Live Here
dogdays I Live Here D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376	First, I have driven my '64Dog for around 100K miles and always used unleaded gas, as it was the only kind of gas available. I have never had the exhaust valves close the clearance with my mechanical lifters. SO, from my own personal experience I have not had seats destroyed. That's with stock cam stock springs. HOWEVER, RR has said he's installing larger exhaust valves. That means the exhaust seat areas will have machine work done on them to fit the larger valves. It only makes sense, as the head is already in the machine shop with work being done to the exhaust seats, to install hardened exhaust seats at the same time. It won't add a lot to the total bill and it should provide trouble-free service no matter how big a spring he puts on the valve. R.

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