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Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! #1371134
01/17/13 01:16 PM
01/17/13 01:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
S
Sb Valiant Offline OP
enthusiast
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western PA
I have a 660 lift comp roller cam that I would like to use! I also have some crane ultra pro roller lifters! I have a guy that does heads and is good and reasonable! As far as I know our w2 heads are pretty much stock. There is a possiblily that there is 2.08 intake valves but we won't know untill we take them out and measure them correctly. How much should the heads be flowing to handle this cam and what size header, carburetor,ect? Also If I go with this big cam and have some pretty stealth heads the compression should be up there! I would like to have as much compression as possible without having a big dome. I hope in the neighborhood of a true 14:1. I would like to have lite pistons so it's easier on the rods! Would custom made flat tops be better or stick with a big ol dome? I am keeping the crank we have and going with different rods wether they are a good set of I beams or H beams. I plan on just buying some harland sharp 1.5 rockers. I am going to have our M1 intake manifold port matched to the heads and flowed! I am really convinced on the progearm timing chain from hughes engines and If I run the roller cam I'll have hughes make me some custom made push rods that the cam needs. If anyone else thinks I need to know or add anything else let me know. I'll post cam specs on here for the roller cam if anyone is interested in seeing them! I very much appreciate the help you guys have been giving me and I know we have talked about abunch of different stuff but it's time to put stuff into action here! Calling machine shop either today or tomorrow and I've already talked to the head guy breifly but will talk more friday! I am making parts list and going to start ordering asap! To let everyone know the goal is to be well into the 10's no excuses and no exceptions for anything else..

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371135
01/17/13 01:52 PM
01/17/13 01:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
A couple of things here... the heads.. you have .660
lift so the heads need to have a peak flow in the
.500 lift range.. thats pretty easy with a W-2.. but
it doesnt say what the flow is... a set of W-2 can have
a flow of 300 cfm pretty easy.. you need to show all
the specs on the cam so we get a idea of the duration
anf see what it will turn in the rpm range... you
will be happier with a H beam rod... I have torn
a I-beam in half before and when I changed over to
the H-beams I havent had any problems... flat top
pistons have a much better flame front.. it doesnt
have to burn around corners or humps.... have you
sat down to figure out your goals with the car...
thats a MUST... then figure out the budget for the
car then the budget for the engine..... its cheaper
and easier to make the car lighter than it is to make
more HP, plus its easier on parts

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1371136
01/17/13 02:25 PM
01/17/13 02:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 492
South Jersey, NJ
D
DragDart360 Offline
mopar
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South Jersey, NJ
How much does the Valiant weigh? This will tell you how much power you need to run 10's. My Dart weighs 2815 race ready and has ran 9.95 @ 133
with a lot less engine than you're talking about building. Let's see those cam specs.


70 Dart Swinger, 2850 lbs
SB 408, Bullet roller 264/268 @50 .636 SSDS stage 2 Edelbrock heads, 1 7/8 Headmans, 1050 dominator by Dom, 9.867 @ 133
Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371137
01/17/13 04:17 PM
01/17/13 04:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,274
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Buy the 1.6 ratio rockers, not the 1.5 Same price so get the increased lift and effective duration


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371138
01/17/13 04:20 PM
01/17/13 04:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
7
74yellowduster Offline
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maryland
if that cam with those lifters can be made to work with your heads you have a great head start! then you can focus on making the bottom end to support the power. you should have no problem running 10's unless you have a 3800 pound car.

stuff to think about for the bottom end, in addition to the H-beams

4-bolt mains

crank work, maybe even a MP stroker crank. or better yet, if you are rich lol:
http://www.winbergcrankshafts.com/pdf/products/dodgesmallblockfinished.pdf

oil system: exernal system, keep that top end oiled and cool. high lift makes valve springs work hard get real hot, they can lose their temper if they dont stay cool enough

block filling - totally clean block and passages, then you can strengthen the lower end with a partial fill if you go past 600hp it's probably best

it's a lot of money for some of that stuff. if you are not rich i'd build the most solid bottom end you can, dont skimp on the oiling and limit your HP/RPM's, 4 bolt mains if possible.

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: 74yellowduster] #1371139
01/17/13 05:05 PM
01/17/13 05:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
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Sb Valiant Offline OP
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western PA
It's only going to be a 340 bored like 30 over with a stock stroke. This engine will not be a stroker because if I do that it will over power the car for sure! The car is 2800 lbs all said and done with driver!

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1371140
01/17/13 05:07 PM
01/17/13 05:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
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Sb Valiant Offline OP
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western PA
I am not sure if we will be able to get the clearances with 1.6 rockers?

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1371141
01/17/13 05:20 PM
01/17/13 05:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
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Sb Valiant Offline OP
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western PA
Cam Specs
Part number: 20-000-9
cam grind number: CRS 313-6/322-3 R8
cam serial number: N 3620
valve adjustment .026 intake and 0.28 exhuast
Gross valve lift: .660 intake and .630 exhuast
with 1.5 rocker ratio
Duration at .020 tappet lift 313 intake and 322 exhuast
valve timing at .050 lift open 30 BTDC and close 66 ABDC and 70 BBDC open and 34 ATDC
specs with cam installed at 108 intake center line
Duration at .050 276 intake and 284 exhuast
lobe lift: .440 intake and .420 exhuast
cam ground with lobe seperation of 108
rpm range from 4500-7500
Like I said the goal is to go in the 10's and I'll spend what ever it takes to get there.

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371142
01/17/13 05:46 PM
01/17/13 05:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
With what you have and a car of 2800# you can get 10s
easy

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1371143
01/17/13 06:03 PM
01/17/13 06:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
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Sb Valiant Offline OP
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western PA
So what does the cam tell you? What should heads flow, rpm, headers, carb,ect be?

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371144
01/17/13 06:12 PM
01/17/13 06:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
4
408strokerdart Offline
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I would never go over 12.5:1 compression with a 10 bolt head. I was told a long time ago (by a very wise Herb McCandless) that I would benefit more from a lightweight rotating assembly than I would by trying to add compression over 12:1. Different story with an 18 bolt head and R3 block.

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: 408strokerdart] #1371145
01/17/13 07:03 PM
01/17/13 07:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Quote:

I would never go over 12.5:1 compression with a 10 bolt head. I was told a long time ago (by a very wise Herb McCandless) that I would benefit more from a lightweight rotating assembly than I would by trying to add compression over 12:1. Different story with an 18 bolt head and R3 block.




That compression number mean nothing, its all in the
valve closing

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: 408strokerdart] #1371146
01/17/13 07:24 PM
01/17/13 07:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport Offline
super stock
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western pennsylvania
I never blew a head gasket on my old motors unless I went over 12 to 1 CR. Cometic multi layer and copper fire ring head gaskets have made it easier to run high compression but they are both expensive. If I were you I would go with a small chamber,light weight flat top piston and H beam rod,keep the bob weight as light as possible. Make sure you debur all the sharp edges on the pistons and chambers with a dremel tool and polish after. Try to set Squish Qwentch as close to .040 as possible. You can do this by zero decking the piston and block and running an .039 head gasket. Detonation is your enemy here with 2 bolt mains, and high horsepower any detonation is going to cause cap walk. I have been running small blocks for over 40 yrs and most of the ones that I split in half were due to not paying attention to detonation. Sorry to be so long but just trying to pass on what I have found out by a lot of

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371147
01/17/13 07:25 PM
01/17/13 07:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 378
bc canada
6
67valiant Offline
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bc canada
close to my build but im going 408 stroker ill have to watch this and see how close we are in the end

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1371148
01/17/13 10:30 PM
01/17/13 10:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 84
Minnesota
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Coldart Offline
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Quote:

Buy the 1.6 ratio rockers, not the 1.5 Same price so get the increased lift and effective duration




THIS is the way to go! Even w/1.6 rocker only about .600 lift on intake.
Let that money thats burning a hole in your pocket cool down and get a
game plan before you order parts that won't work.
Ask questions and buy smart, you will be much happier with the results!

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Coldart] #1371149
01/18/13 02:39 AM
01/18/13 02:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,149
Melbourne , Australia
LA360 Offline
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As Mike said, at your weight, it should be quite easy to run a 10 second pass. You would be able to run high tens in your car with a factory headed 360, so a W2 headed 340 should do it no problem.
Are you W2's the Econo head with the open chamber? I wouldn't get too caught up with running monster compression, for your goals it is totally unnecessary. As has already been suggested, around 12:1 should be enough. On a 340 with an open chamber head, a domed piston is going to be necessary.
The reality is, you could reach your goals with the parts you have already, you'll drop $5-10K in engine upgrades etc before you know it.


Alan Jones
Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: LA360] #1371150
01/18/13 01:35 PM
01/18/13 01:35 PM
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Posts: 358
western PA
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Sb Valiant Offline OP
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western PA
Yes I have the w2 econo heads and I guess if we only need 12:1 compression would could probaly get away with running pump gas! I talked with my machine shop guy last night and he said he has some brand new alumium rods he want's to sell for 300 bucks! I guess the brand of the rod is called brooks I think? I found out how much it's going to cost to get the block bored out with a torque plate and got some prices on other stuff! I am talking with the guy thats doing the heads tonight!

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371151
01/18/13 01:46 PM
01/18/13 01:46 PM
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Renton Washington
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Triple Threat Offline
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Renton Washington
You can't run pump gas with 12:1 compression and an iron head.


-Dustin
67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi
68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Triple Threat] #1371152
01/18/13 01:51 PM
01/18/13 01:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
Locomotion Offline
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Florida
X2.....and I'd be concerned about your engine builder's intentions for recommending aluminum rods!

Last edited by Locomotion; 01/18/13 01:52 PM.
Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Locomotion] #1371153
01/18/13 02:09 PM
01/18/13 02:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,745
Maryland
340_Dart Offline
top fuel
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Maryland
I wouldn't bother with aluminum rods in your motor. Remember, aluminum rods have a shorter lifespan than steel rods. Just buy a set of Eagle or Scat h-beams and they'll last the life of the motor.

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: 340_Dart] #1371154
01/18/13 02:11 PM
01/18/13 02:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 180
long island newyork
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Abodyjohn88 Offline
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long island newyork
This thread is a certafied s#!t show

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Abodyjohn88] #1371155
01/18/13 02:26 PM
01/18/13 02:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Quote:

This thread is a certafied s#!t show




And why do you say that?

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Abodyjohn88] #1371156
01/18/13 06:38 PM
01/18/13 06:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
slippery440 Offline
Crybaby440
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Central New York
Quote:

This thread is a certafied s#!t show




I HAVE TO AGREE Sb Valiant Please don't take this wrong and stop comming here for advice. Here is what I have learned from reading and asking questions on Moparts on how to build a motor. You can throw 50% of the post away because thats how many that have no clue how to build their own junk or their junk is still in pieces.You can throw 20 percent away because those guys have way to much money and you can never get the espensive parts they want you to get.Then about 15% are great guys and can answer tech questions and will steer you in the right direction. Then the last 15% are people that could care less.They just add fluff and crap from what they have read.These people have no car or a motor but someday they are going to build a monster.
I will give you a little advice. First thing you need to have is a plan.Sounds if you have this.Do a search on moparts on 408 builds. You can see many motors that are running and the outcome.You can see what parts will work together and make power. Second thing is a budjit. This is cold hard cash that you either have or can make in a short time. I find most guys want the best parts and spend till the money is gone and the build is half done. Then people like me buy their junk for half price a couple years later. Third Buy the best quialty parts you can cheap. You can find deals all the time from the guys I talked about in number 2 step.#4 Stay away from fancy parts like aluminum rods and caps and gear drives and bushed lifter bores and so on. All cost more money up front then double the machining cost and some cases less engine life.I would never buy a used set of aluminum rods. They have a life of so many cycles and after that its like a gun with one bullet in the chamber and when will that chamber come to the top. Build a motor that you can put 200 pass's a year then store it and do it again the next year. Mabe the third year tip it upside down and check the bearings. If you did everything right you put the pan back on and your ready for the next season.THE BIGGEST THING OF ALL!! Make sure your engine shop is the best one you have in the area and you can see the motors that have been built by him.Every engine builder is only as good as the last one he built.Never let him steer you to what he has to sell you for your motor.Most likely its parts he was traded for labor and he has no clue if they good or junk.The guy the does heads cheap? Thats where you make the HP.If he does not port heads for a profession leave the heads alone and do a good 3 angle valve grind and make sure the push rods are not hitting anywhere and the heads are flat.Don't worry about flow numbers.Some head porters can make any head flow the number you want even if it not true and plus you can take the same head to anouther shop with a flow machine and get a differant flow number. All I can say is a crap port job will kill you.
I have a friend that has a low cost Abody that races at mine and his home track that truly amazes me on how fast that car goes. He is in the 10s and if he can do it you can.


If the MODS did their job I would not be hitting the notify MOD button. LOL
Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: slippery440] #1371157
01/18/13 07:42 PM
01/18/13 07:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,409
Ont. Canada
10.90 Racer Offline
super street
10.90 Racer  Offline
super street

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,409
Ont. Canada
Quote:

Quote:

This thread is a certafied s#!t show




I HAVE TO AGREE Sb Valiant Please don't take this wrong and stop comming here for advice. Here is what I have learned from reading and asking questions on Moparts on how to build a motor. You can throw 50% of the post away because thats how many that have no clue how to build their own junk or their junk is still in pieces.You can throw 20 percent away because those guys have way to much money and you can never get the espensive parts they want you to get.Then about 15% are great guys and can answer tech questions and will steer you in the right direction. Then the last 15% are people that could care less.They just add fluff and crap from what they have read.These people have no car or a motor but someday they are going to build a monster.
I will give you a little advice. First thing you need to have is a plan.Sounds if you have this.Do a search on moparts on 408 builds. You can see many motors that are running and the outcome.You can see what parts will work together and make power. Second thing is a budjit. This is cold hard cash that you either have or can make in a short time. I find most guys want the best parts and spend till the money is gone and the build is half done. Then people like me buy their junk for half price a couple years later. Third Buy the best quialty parts you can cheap. You can find deals all the time from the guys I talked about in number 2 step.#4 Stay away from fancy parts like aluminum rods and caps and gear drives and bushed lifter bores and so on. All cost more money up front then double the machining cost and some cases less engine life.I would never buy a used set of aluminum rods. They have a life of so many cycles and after that its like a gun with one bullet in the chamber and when will that chamber come to the top. Build a motor that you can put 200 pass's a year then store it and do it again the next year. Mabe the third year tip it upside down and check the bearings. If you did everything right you put the pan back on and your ready for the next season.THE BIGGEST THING OF ALL!! Make sure your engine shop is the best one you have in the area and you can see the motors that have been built by him.Every engine builder is only as good as the last one he built.Never let him steer you to what he has to sell you for your motor.Most likely its parts he was traded for labor and he has no clue if they good or junk.The guy the does heads cheap? Thats where you make the HP.If he does not port heads for a profession leave the heads alone and do a good 3 angle valve grind and make sure the push rods are not hitting anywhere and the heads are flat.Don't worry about flow numbers.Some head porters can make any head flow the number you want even if it not true and plus you can take the same head to anouther shop with a flow machine and get a differant flow number. All I can say is a crap port job will kill you.
I have a friend that has a low cost Abody that races at mine and his home track that truly amazes me on how fast that car goes. He is in the 10s and if he can do it you can.




I agree, been racing and building for over 20 years...... You are on a budget. Work with the stuff you have, put good bolts in your rods re-size them..... Get the high RPM out of your head!!!!......... you don't need it and are not ready yet!!!! The only thing i would change is your cam.. that cam is by far the wrong cam for your combo......

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Sb Valiant] #1371158
01/18/13 08:57 PM
01/18/13 08:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 84
Minnesota
C
Coldart Offline
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Posts: 84
Minnesota
Slippery440 is right on the money, very good advice!

Actually that cam is perfect for what he has, installed @106 w/good valve job = 500hp @7000 that would run all day long. It would need compression so pump gas isn't gonna work.
Properly assembled with No tricks And NO aluminum rods!

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1371159
01/18/13 10:12 PM
01/18/13 10:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 180
long island newyork
A
Abodyjohn88 Offline
member
Abodyjohn88  Offline
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A

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 180
long island newyork
Quote:

Quote:

This thread is a certafied s#!t show




And why do you say that?




Way to much knowledge and good advice coming from you guys and its falling on deaf ears imho.

Re: Help Me Put This Engine Together Please!!! [Re: Coldart] #1371160
01/18/13 10:44 PM
01/18/13 10:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,409
Ont. Canada
10.90 Racer Offline
super street
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Posts: 1,409
Ont. Canada
Quote:

Slippery440 is right on the money, very good advice!

Actually that cam is perfect for what he has, installed @106 w/good valve job = 500hp @7000 that would run all day long. It would need compression so pump gas isn't gonna work.
Properly assembled with No tricks And NO aluminum rods!




Ya...... Maybe If he can find a piston that will give him lots of compression, ........cam is still HUGE IMO........ But what do I know...... my solid ft is only 244/ 256 @ .050 which runs mid tens with factory heads turning under 7000 rpm at 3200 lbs....

take a look at this piston... Ross 99788^ NO PUMP GAS my friend!!!!!

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