Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: ChevyTS]
#1360277
12/28/12 07:18 PM
12/28/12 07:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,110
Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,110
Byron, NY
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yea..take it to a shop that has done it before, dont let them learn on your stuff, 'cause ultimatly its you who will pay for it!
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60
'01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust,
'05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list
'60 Willys CJ5
'01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison
'64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: W.I.N. Racing]
#1360278
12/28/12 07:33 PM
12/28/12 07:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
ChevyTS
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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Quote:
yea..take it to a shop that has done it before, dont let them learn on your stuff, 'cause ultimatly its you who will pay for it!
Thats a good point, but I need them to know how. The shops that know how are 100 miles away in the DFW area.
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: ChevyTS]
#1360279
12/28/12 09:34 PM
12/28/12 09:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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Delray beach, Florida
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for starters, you need to make sure they have a line-boring machine and not just a hone. the carbide cutters don't care anything about what material they cut when it comes to cast iron or aluminum. main cap conversions need to be bored first and foremost. if they want to finish with a hone they should bore to within .001-.0015 of final size and then hone, of thet's the way they prefer to do it. Honing will always cut the softer metal first and you end up with egg shapped main bores, so don't let them touch it if they aren't going to bore the mains first. Personally, i prefer to just bore the mains to finished size and be done with it. that way it saves a step and the bores are absoloutely round the way they should be when finished. best of luck. 
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: Performance Only]
#1360280
12/28/12 10:19 PM
12/28/12 10:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
ChevyTS
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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Quote:
for starters, you need to make sure they have a line-boring machine and not just a hone. the carbide cutters don't care anything about what material they cut when it comes to cast iron or aluminum. main cap conversions need to be bored first and foremost. if they want to finish with a hone they should bore to within .001-.0015 of final size and then hone, of thet's the way they prefer to do it. Honing will always cut the softer metal first and you end up with egg shapped main bores, so don't let them touch it if they aren't going to bore the mains first.
Personally, i prefer to just bore the mains to finished size and be done with it. that way it saves a step and the bores are absoloutely round the way they should be when finished.
best of luck.
The way I understood him he was talking about cutter pushing off the harder metal. But I will find out for sure. I wouldn't think he would even try not boring the mains first. So I take you have installed main caps? If so, whats your take on the program 4 bolt conversion? Thanks CTS
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: Jerry]
#1360282
12/28/12 11:11 PM
12/28/12 11:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
ChevyTS
OP
mopar
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Texas
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Quote:
once you bolt the main caps down and torque them to spec, your machine shop should be fine running a line bore through the block. they must have a line boring machine, if they don't then they will encounter problems. if they have encountered problems in the past and don't know how to fix it then definitely take your stuff elsewhere to be machined.
there is no way of adjusting cutter drift, it shouldn't drift in the first place with the right tools. sometimes if they are pushing too fast or have worn out tooling it can push but i have never personally seen it on line boring machine.
if your thinking program that needs the cross bolts you'd be farther ahead getting a girdle. on the higher hp engine setups i've seen cross bolt mains don't add enough strength right below the cap where all the forces are from the crank. again this is my opinion and i'm not saying they make a bad product.
Could be just a worn out machine. Ill find out more details for sure. Thanks CTS
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: ChevyTS]
#1360283
12/29/12 10:55 AM
12/29/12 10:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
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Quote:
The shops that know how are 100 miles away in the DFW area.
I drove my block 300 miles to a shop that knows how to do it, has done it before, and has the equipment and operators to do it right.
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: Jerry]
#1360287
12/29/12 05:11 PM
12/29/12 05:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
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If I am understanding this train of thought correctly we are saying that line boring to size is good, line honing is bad for iron blocks with aluminum caps? It makes sense that if you tried to line hone an iron block with aluminum caps there could be an issue with the aluminum machining more. One thing that surprises me (machinists please chime in) is that this super hard, heat treated aluminum cuts faster than Chrysler's standard old grey iron. Thanks to everyone that is providing insight on this subject, I have two blocks to do. Once I am done I will post up a thread on my (machinist's) findings.  One thing I can tell you right now is that the thrust surface on Jerry's caps is perfect while the 440 source caps are going need about .050 fly cut off of of each side to properly fit the thrust bearing. It is well worth it to spend the extra cash on the made in USA caps!
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: Jerry]
#1360289
12/29/12 10:29 PM
12/29/12 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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Delray beach, Florida
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Quote:
No, you will never bore to size. It's two different processes. Honing removes a little material at a time, say .001 inches or less. So you bore to remove the bulk of your material, then stop short a few .001inches and then finish to size with a hone. And this process makes no difference whether it an aluminum block with cast iron caps or an iron block with aluminum cas, or an iron block with iron or steel caps.
That's not really accurate. Most shops with conventional boring bars don't bore to size because they can't, soo they finish up with a hone. I have a Rottler CNC machining center and i always bore to the finished size. I easily have accuracy within .0001-.0002. Why go through 2 procedures when all it takes is one with the right equipment?
By the way, people saying line honing machines have the mandrel supported on one end or the other are not correct. One end of the mandrel is attached to the drive motor, but the mandrel itself is supported only my the main bores themselves. Honing oil is sprayed on the mandrel/ block via a sparay bar and the mandrel is manually stroked back and forth to remove material. Some shops can do an excellect job line honing when they take the time to do it right. unfortuantely many shops either have less experienced people or they just get lazy and skip some of the neccesary steps too make that procedure a true success. I end up fixing those types of jobs from other shops on a regular basis, so i know a bit about it. I've done enough line honing over the years to know i prefer boring the mains with good sharp tooling rather than honing. IMO opinion the end result is always better with true round bores. If need be i can elaborate a little more on the line hone process and why those jobs don't alway's end up with the desired results.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: Performance Only]
#1360291
12/30/12 02:29 PM
12/30/12 02:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
No, you will never bore to size. It's two different processes. Honing removes a little material at a time, say .001 inches or less. So you bore to remove the bulk of your material, then stop short a few .001inches and then finish to size with a hone. And this process makes no difference whether it an aluminum block with cast iron caps or an iron block with aluminum cas, or an iron block with iron or steel caps.
That's not really accurate. Most shops with conventional boring bars don't bore to size because they can't, soo they finish up with a hone. I have a Rottler CNC machining center and i always bore to the finished size. I easily have accuracy within .0001-.0002. Why go through 2 procedures when all it takes is one with the right equipment?
By the way, people saying line honing machines have the mandrel supported on one end or the other are not correct. One end of the mandrel is attached to the drive motor, but the mandrel itself is supported only my the main bores themselves. Honing oil is sprayed on the mandrel/ block via a sparay bar and the mandrel is manually stroked back and forth to remove material. Some shops can do an excellect job line honing when they take the time to do it right. unfortuantely many shops either have less experienced people or they just get lazy and skip some of the neccesary steps too make that procedure a true success. I end up fixing those types of jobs from other shops on a regular basis, so i know a bit about it. I've done enough line honing over the years to know i prefer boring the mains with good sharp tooling rather than honing. IMO opinion the end result is always better with true round bores. If need be i can elaborate a little more on the line hone process and why those jobs don't alway's end up with the desired results.
You know I am all ears over hear Dan...
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: Jerry]
#1360292
12/30/12 02:30 PM
12/30/12 02:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
No, you will never bore to size. It's two different processes. Honing removes a little material at a time, say .001 inches or less. So you bore to remove the bulk of your material, then stop short a few .001inches and then finish to size with a hone. And this process makes no difference whether it an aluminum block with cast iron caps or an iron block with aluminum cas, or an iron block with iron or steel caps.
Thank you for clarifying this Jerry.
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Re: Aluminum main caps.
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1360293
12/30/12 04:54 PM
12/30/12 04:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black®
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
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I always thought the finish honing was important as the surface of the bore, where the bearing shell seats, needed to be right for effective heat transfer ... ?
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Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
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it seems to me all the factory OEM blocks I've seen, regardless of brands have cross hatch patterns in the main webbing 