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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1350181
12/12/12 03:14 PM
12/12/12 03:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 494
IL
EchoSixMike
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 494
IL
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Quote:
well, if your going to buy B1s then you should probably buy aftermarket block, and if your going to buy an aftermarket block then you should probably buy a callies crank and if your going to buy a callies crank then you should probably buy manley rods and if your going to buy manley ro............. 
Yeah, they're not factory upgrade heads, but neither are ported Victors or -1's or big-EZ's either. You run those heads, you're going to want aluminum maincaps and probably a girdle as well and now you're within spitting distance of a megablock.
The quoted combo is what I'm running on the street, except Winburg crank, not Callies, and BME pistons. And EFI on E-85. The big issue I'd see for street use (and guys not running E85) is the 65cc chambers. Big dish and a thick gasket to get streetable compression with big inches. Or else run race fuel and spend a mint. S/F....Ken M
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Blusmbl]
#1350182
12/12/12 03:19 PM
12/12/12 03:19 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Piston Choice is big Killer but..
That and Indy dealers can discount Indy products and Do!
Replacement valve for Indy--25 places to get one and low prices--for a B1 maybe 4x as much?
In my mind it all comes down to a hundred places to get pistons for Indy style builds and High $$ customs for the B1 and only a few places to get it from.
I think you will find that most users of the B1 live close to the source, I remember first time I did big Mopar show at Norwalk track there were B1's on tons of cars that had traveled to that show / race all from around Koffels area.
Great heads but most racers etc build as much as they can as cheap as they can and the nod goes to shelf stock pistons and Indys.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: ]
#1350183
12/12/12 03:24 PM
12/12/12 03:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 842
Baltimore,MD
Bill_LBSR
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 842
Baltimore,MD
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Don't know much about B1s. Would headers off a 440-1 engine fit on a B1 setup? Or is the exhaust port layout different?
LBSR
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Bill_LBSR]
#1350185
12/12/12 03:35 PM
12/12/12 03:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,376
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,376
Las Vegas
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The exhaust flange is the saem..HOWEVER they are usually on the large side and the other issue is they are wider and taller heads. So depends on what you are trying to put them in. This is another area where I feel most guys cheap out is a shelf header. If you are building a more seriouos piece the additional added expense of a few hundred for a set of custom headers shoudl not be a big deal. But that is just my opinion. I realize that everyone SHOULD use a custom piston. But most guys wont, just a fact of life. be it cost, time, or uncertainty on their part it is what it is. Oh yeah dont recall the last time I paid $750 for a set of pistons either, usually a few hundred more. So they see that as another added expense, which it is. To me a shelf piston is a compromise and not meant to be used in an all out type build. But I accept that, I also understand people have a budget to live within. But that is an entirely different conversation. They have their place but it is not on a big stroker set up. You can certainly use them but you are leaving power on the table. For a steet/strip car or a power adder application, or if rules of a sanctioning body require a stock valve angle then great, they can make good power. They are good heads and have their niche. To put it brutally simply a -1 motor is just easier to do. Not so much work involved, or thought. You can buy stuff from the shelf and bolt it together. Then wonder why you have a mid 10 second BB "race" motor 
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1350186
12/12/12 03:39 PM
12/12/12 03:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,721
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,721
Portage,michigan
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Quote:
The exhaust flange is the saem..HOWEVER they are usually on the large side and the other issue is they are wider and taller heads. So depends on what you are trying to put them in. This is another area where I feel most guys cheap out is a shelf header. If you are building a more seriouos piece the additional added expense of a few hundred for a set of custom headers shoudl not be a big deal. But that is just my opinion.
I realize that everyone SHOULD use a custom piston. But most guys wont, just a fact of life. be it cost, time, or uncertainty on their part it is what it is. Oh yeah dont recall the last time I paid $750 for a set of pistons either, usually a few hundred more. So they see that as another added expense, which it is. To me a shelf piston is a compromise and not meant to be used in an all out type build. But I accept that, I also understand people have a budget to live within. But that is an entirely different conversation.
They have their place but it is not on a big stroker set up. You can certainly use them but you are leaving power on the table. For a steet/strip car or a power adder application, or if rules of a sanctioning body require a stock valve angle then great, they can make good power. They are good heads and have their niche.
To put it brutally simply a -1 motor is just easier to do. Not so much work involved, or thought. You can buy stuff from the shelf and bolt it together. Then wonder why you have a mid 10 second BB "race" motor
 
maybe you arent so bad after all 
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Performance Only]
#1350187
12/12/12 03:40 PM
12/12/12 03:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
Mopar-Al
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
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I think, going by memory, the Indy 440-1 top end set is in the middle 3500 range. Koffels has their sale going on right now and they are close to Indy's price for comparison. The draw back is the pistons and the return oil system. Koffel's even has a dicount going on for moparts members as well as the MC heads. Check it out http://www.b1heads.com/pdf/Koffels_Head_Sale3013.jpgThanks to a few members here, I am running a 511 B1 set up. I did not go for the full all out stage port, with all the extra goodies though. It wasnt about the extra price for the MC stuff and Titainium valves, I got the basic kit, with a stage 1 port, since it was my first shot at building an engine with B1 original stuff. My car with me in it, weighs in under 2800, the power increase for the racing I do, is an absolute blast. Well worth the experience in trying out this combo for the first time.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: dartman366]
#1350190
12/12/12 04:01 PM
12/12/12 04:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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They have that head sale every year and every year I stare at it saying to myself "should I?". I remember when I saw Brian Hicks' Challenger KOS car back in the day at the ROCK and he was running a KB aluminum B block at 470" or so running 8.80 after 8.80 with an old Compucar 200 shot. All steel car with KOS rules. The thing that really got my heart racing were his 8600rpm burnouts and his purge the nitrous with the gas pedal technique! He caught on fire that race unfortunately, fuel solenoid I think.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1350193
12/12/12 04:46 PM
12/12/12 04:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 842
Baltimore,MD
Bill_LBSR
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 842
Baltimore,MD
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Quote:
The exhaust flange is the saem..HOWEVER they are usually on the large side and the other issue is they are wider and taller heads. So depends on what you are trying to put them in. This is another area where I feel most guys cheap out is a shelf header. If you are building a more seriouos piece the additional added expense of a few hundred for a set of custom headers shoudl not be a big deal. But that is just my opinion.
I realize that everyone SHOULD use a custom piston. But most guys wont, just a fact of life. be it cost, time, or uncertainty on their part it is what it is. Oh yeah dont recall the last time I paid $750 for a set of pistons either, usually a few hundred more. So they see that as another added expense, which it is. To me a shelf piston is a compromise and not meant to be used in an all out type build. But I accept that, I also understand people have a budget to live within. But that is an entirely different conversation.
They have their place but it is not on a big stroker set up. You can certainly use them but you are leaving power on the table. For a steet/strip car or a power adder application, or if rules of a sanctioning body require a stock valve angle then great, they can make good power. They are good heads and have their niche.
To put it brutally simply a -1 motor is just easier to do. Not so much work involved, or thought. You can buy stuff from the shelf and bolt it together. Then wonder why you have a mid 10 second BB "race" motor
Thanks for the info, Al. Was thinking of possibly upgrading in the future to B1's and I just had custom headers made for my 440-1's. Sounds like the headers will work just have to adjust them a bit to work with the B1's.
LBSR
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: EvilB1Dart]
#1350194
12/12/12 06:15 PM
12/12/12 06:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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But here's something to think about. What do you think the Mopar community would do IF Koffel's ran a "SPECIAL" selling complete B1 Original (no MC's) top-half on sale for 2-weeks one time per year? They already do it, but the price is still out of reach for most I suspect. I have purchased two sets from them on their yearly sale. How many sets do you think they would sell if the price was lower? Complete advertisement on the internet, and in Mopar rags. Limit one complete set per customer and no dealer/vendor purchases. I'd be interested to see how many folks would jump at that offer. Lets say $2500 for their standard B1-O kit. Do you think such an event would promote more sales, or do you think it would not be a hit and followed by excuses, etc?
I'd never run their supplied rockers in a race motor, but I suspect they'd be okay in a street motor that didn't have a real aggressive cam or have to really RPM.
Wes
Wes, It would be really cool if they could do that, but I think they would be out of business or need to use less quality castings. I don't know a lot about what it takes to make a buck in the aftermarket parts
business, but my guess would be, the Koffel's aren't getting rich. Wes, you are/or have been a B1 guy too. Aren't the B1 packages pretty comparable with the Indy -1 packages, less pistons? Power is 100-150hp more. IMO PS How's the Predator deal working out?
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350196
12/12/12 07:05 PM
12/12/12 07:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Give the valves a little more angle too....
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: EvilB1Dart]
#1350197
12/12/12 07:13 PM
12/12/12 07:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout.
To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths" the price difference is monumental...but by the time you CNC victors or -1's, they also need custom offset valvetrain as well. there's still a cost premium...just nowhere near as much as in years past as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't in the game when the B1 came out.
If you're building a stroker, you need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from the shortblock perspective.
At that point a set of indy 440-1's will get you there and if you want a little more work the 572-13 will cover it and its all figured out.
True.
But here's something to think about. What do you think the Mopar community would do IF Koffel's ran a "SPECIAL" selling complete B1 Original (no MC's) top-half on sale for 2-weeks one time per year? They already do it, but the price is still out of reach for most I suspect. I have purchased two sets from them on their yearly sale. How many sets do you think they would sell if the price was lower? Complete advertisement on the internet, and in Mopar rags. Limit one complete set per customer and no dealer/vendor purchases. I'd be interested to see how many folks would jump at that offer. Lets say $2500 for their standard B1-O kit. Do you think such an event would promote more sales, or do you think it would not be a hit and followed by excuses, etc?
I'd never run their supplied rockers in a race motor, but I suspect they'd be okay in a street motor that didn't have a real aggressive cam or have to really RPM.
Wes
Great idea/thought Wes , but the problem is they don't look like a STOCK iron head and you can't run stock stamped rockers on them.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350198
12/12/12 07:14 PM
12/12/12 07:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Ok, let me turn it around a little....
What if Koffrll, Indy, Eddie or whoever gave Us a BBM head which combined max wedge ports (standard intakes will fit ) BUT also gave us a W / B1 style valve arrangement that opened on the bore center and a more favorable for flow Valve angle?
How hard would it be? Lets assume you're gonna need B1 style pistons? Maybe less a B1 but maybe more of a Scaled-up W8? 2.30 intake valve and 380+ cfm
I was always vexed by why the aftermarket couldn't fix the 1958 valve angles. Look at all the Cleveland/Windsor/twisted wedge choices the Ford guys have. Look at a set of CHI Clevor heads some time,
Keep the shaft, center up them valves!!
Some people here think their -1 heads flow 380 or more.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350199
12/12/12 07:17 PM
12/12/12 07:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
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Quote:
Ok, let me turn it around a little....
What if Koffrll, Indy, Eddie or whoever gave Us a BBM head which combined max wedge ports (standard intakes will fit ) BUT also gave us a W / B1 style valve arrangement that opened on the bore center and a more favorable for flow Valve angle?
How hard would it be? Lets assume you're gonna need B1 style pistons? Maybe less a B1 but maybe more of a Scaled-up W8? 2.30 intake valve and 380+ cfm
I was always vexed by why the aftermarket couldn't fix the 1958 valve angles. Look at all the Cleveland/Windsor/twisted wedge choices the Ford guys have. Look at a set of CHI Clevor heads some time,
Keep the shaft, center up them valves!!
Mopar answered your request except for moving the valves.
Mopar Stage VI CNC ported by Chapman flowed 385cfm with a 2.250" valve
Nobody bought those either. 
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350200
12/12/12 07:26 PM
12/12/12 07:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
topbrent
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
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