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Car nosing over at 1-2 shift #1331698
11/07/12 01:43 AM
11/07/12 01:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline OP
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Had a problem at the track this weekend. Only got 2 make 2 passes due to some sort of mechanical issue. First pass car nosed over at the 1-2 shift and lost almost all power the rest of the track. LM unit showed it was super lean, in the 17s. Only had a very short time to be back in the lanes for eliminations, so I went up 10 jet sizes in the rear. Car pulled very hard the first 500 feet or so. Picture shows I have daylight under the left front!! So that is good...In any case, around the 500 foot mark, car loses all power, let off after the 1/8 cuz no way I was going to catch my opponent. I thought I had hit record on the LM unit, but hadnt...

Did a flow test and it pumps a gallon in 30 seconds,(Mallory 140, w Mallory dead head reg) so that should be OK. Pulled a few valve springs and they are fine.

Im still leaning towards a fuel delivery issue?

2nd pass motor didnt pop and crack like it was lean, just nosed over.

I have a Crane HI-6 box and Crane coil. Is there a good way to test the box?

I'll put it back together tomorrow, take it out and see if it will nose over again. I'll make sure and watch the LM if it does.

In the meantime, any tips on where to look next?

Last edited by Von; 11/07/12 01:43 AM.

72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Von] #1331699
11/07/12 03:31 AM
11/07/12 03:31 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 653
Fort Worth, TX
Dago Red Offline
mopar
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Did the car take off when you backed off the throttle?

Check the float levels if its got a carburetor(s).

I learned that day that fuel pressure and fuel volume are two different things.


If You Can't Be Good, At Least Be Colorful
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Von] #1331700
11/07/12 03:35 PM
11/07/12 03:35 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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What size carb. and needles and seats? As already said, fuel pressure and fuel delivery are not the same


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Cab_Burge] #1331701
11/07/12 04:16 PM
11/07/12 04:16 PM
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Portage,michigan
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B3422W5 Offline
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Have you raced the car before like it is currently set up, or was this the first outing with it?


69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8

Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Cab_Burge] #1331702
11/07/12 06:01 PM
11/07/12 06:01 PM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline OP
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Quote:

What size carb. and needles and seats? As already said, fuel pressure and fuel delivery are not the same





825 Demon. Float levels are OK. .110 needle and seats. I cant see it being a needle and seat restriction issue, motor only makes maybe 425HP. Pressure is fine, at least at idle. 7 PSI at idle.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: B3422W5] #1331703
11/07/12 06:04 PM
11/07/12 06:04 PM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline OP
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Quote:

Have you raced the car before like it is currently set up, or was this the first outing with it?




3rd time out with this set up....


But, the other 2 trips to the track it would break up at 5800. Not nose over, but start missing. I figured it was valve springs, but apparently not. It also never showed lean on the LM unit when it would break up. Also, it might not do it every pass. I would short shift it to avoid the breaking up. It almost feels like it is hitting the limiter, but isnt?


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Von] #1331704
11/07/12 06:28 PM
11/07/12 06:28 PM
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Portage,michigan
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B3422W5 Offline
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I had similar symptoms few years back with my old car.
Thought it was vapor locking, thought carb, blah, blah, blah.
Ended up being the 6al box was bad. Finally replaced it with a digital 6 after chasing the problem most of a summer.
Mine would run fine in first gear, but all the way through second and third it would miss and sputter, slowed it from 10 flat to 10.50 or so staying in it.
Mine would run fine one pass. Then maybe two passes it would act up, then run fine again
Made it a stinker to bracket race with... Lol

Last edited by B3422W5; 11/07/12 06:31 PM.

69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8

Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Von] #1331705
11/07/12 09:49 PM
11/07/12 09:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 76
georgia
intenseneon Offline
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whats the fuel pressure going down the track? sounds like not enough pressure, had a similar problem, at top end of track car would die, got a fuel gauge and mounted on cowl, hardly no pressure down the track...


69 Dart
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: intenseneon] #1331706
11/08/12 02:18 PM
11/08/12 02:18 PM
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Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid Offline
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1. did you check your flow rate before the regulator or after?
2. what fuel tank is in your car, and what was the fuel level when you were racing?
3. where is your fuel filter located if you have one? And what type is it?

Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: CokeBottleKid] #1331707
11/08/12 03:09 PM
11/08/12 03:09 PM
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Deerfield, Ohio
70dusterjohn Offline
top fuel
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I once had a shift light that was shorting and cause the box to mess up, and the car would nose over at the shift points ??? It took a loooooooooonnnnnnnnng time to fine that one, let me tell ya...

Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: CokeBottleKid] #1331708
11/08/12 11:03 PM
11/08/12 11:03 PM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline OP
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Quote:

1. did you check your flow rate before the regulator or after?
2. what fuel tank is in your car, and what was the fuel level when you were racing?
3. where is your fuel filter located if you have one? And what type is it?




Flow checked after reg.
Stock fuel tank, 3/8-1/2 tank of fuel, but closer to 3/8.
Filter located below the stock tank. I have a bung welded on the bottom of the tank. Fuel gravity feeds filter and pump. Both are located below the bottom of the tank.Mallory filter.

I almost wonder if possibly I just didnt have enough fuel in the tank, uncovering the bung on the hit. Since the left front shows daylight (something it has never gotten close to in the 23 years Ive owned the car), maybe that is the issue. Cant wait to get a motor with some steam under the hood. Should be pretty fun.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Von] #1331709
11/09/12 02:16 AM
11/09/12 02:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 653
Fort Worth, TX
Dago Red Offline
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Von, be patient, keep it simple. Sometimes it's more a matter of eliminating what it isn't.

How big a fuel line?

How much rubber/braided fuel line do you have?
I've had them collapse

If it's free, have the battery checked under load. Go to a place that specializes in batterys, like an Interstate distributor, or else Auto Irishman Parts Zone et al will tell you need a new battery.


If You Can't Be Good, At Least Be Colorful
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Dago Red] #1331710
11/10/12 12:24 AM
11/10/12 12:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid Offline
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You have just a bung with no sump? Any pics? What filter specifically, and what element?

Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: CokeBottleKid] #1331711
11/10/12 01:05 AM
11/10/12 01:05 AM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline OP
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Quote:

You have just a bung with no sump? Any pics? What filter specifically, and what element?




Ya, no sump. It is just a brass fitting soldered on the tank bottom.

Cant remember which filter, but dont see how the filter can be the problem. Ive run a second and almost 8 mph faster with the same filter.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Von] #1331712
11/10/12 03:31 PM
11/10/12 03:31 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

You have just a bung with no sump? Any pics? What filter specifically, and what element?




Ya, no sump. It is just a brass fitting soldered on the tank bottom.

Cant remember which filter, but dont see how the filter can be the problem. Ive run a second and almost 8 mph faster with the same filter.


Von, the fuel filter element size can be a choke believe it or not I found that out the hard way, I used a BG 500 filter with the stock paper element(10 micron size) in between my tank and pump, it would not flow enough fuel through it to feed my motor in high gear My LM1 showed the mixture going lean from the hit of the throttle to the other end of the track, I had a Magnafuel 275 pump mounted behind and below the sump, the sump has a #10 line feeding the BG 500 fuel filter and a #10 line to the pump I changed the jets on the outboard six pak carbs from .092 and .096 to .098 and .102, no change in the LM1 readings I changed the pump to a Magnafuel 300 pump and did a before and after fuel flow test, there was no difference in VOLUME on free flowing the pump after the regulator by putting all three # 6 AN lines into a plastic fuel jug I called Magnafuel and ask why the bigger pump didn't free flow more fuel in the same amount of time, 10 seconds,and the tech ask me how I was doing the test, I told him and he said that I needed to put restrictors in the fuel lines like the needles and seats to make the bigger pump work harder I hooked one line up to a carb. and reflowwed it with two lines into the jug, it flowed 20 ounces more in ten seconds He had also ask me about my fuel system and said to changed the fuel element size in the filter to a 80 micron or bigger between the pump and the tank, I didn't do that before the second flow test. I left it alone and ran the car the next spring with the bigger pump and same fuel filter, bigger jetting and the car slowed down .2 and 3 MPH in the quarter mile The wide ban showed it being a lot fatter from the hit of the throttle all the way down the track, I put the smaller jetting back into it and the car sped back up I put the 275 pump back on at homelater and changed the fuel filter to a Aeromtive 80 micron element at the same time and the 275 pump with the new bigger element filter size flowed almost as much as the 300 pump had flowed with the smaller 10 micron element filter It, size, does matter You probally need to run the fuel tank full or almost full all the time also with just a brass fitting sucking fuel off of the bottom of the tank Good luck, thier is a bunch of gremlins out there that can mess with drag racers Needle and seats size matters also, bigger is better


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: Cab_Burge] #1331713
11/11/12 11:02 AM
11/11/12 11:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 449
Wisconsin
sjs64polara Offline
mopar
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Seeing that nobody mentioned yet, I will. Check your tank vent. It could be too small or partially plugged. You could always add another vent off your filler neck if needed.
My dodge now uses a ½ inlet vent because off similar issues.

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Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: sjs64polara] #1331714
11/11/12 12:54 PM
11/11/12 12:54 PM
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Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid Offline
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Well knowing that you have a bung with no sump I'd say fuel slosh is definitely a possibility. Sounds like filter is not your issue, however I ask because I once had a -8 earls filter between pump and regulator cause me problems.

It was a sintered bronze type element and it was mounted on the frame. After driving a while (noticeably at freeway speeds) I could see my fuel pressure drop to almost nothing (had in-car fuel gauge). Turns out the element was getting hot from the exhaust and actually closing up. When the car was cold it wasn't an issue. Replaced it with a screen element and no more problem.

Hope you find what the issue is, a fuel pressure gauge (even a makeshift setup) that is readable from the drivers seat is invaluable .

Re: Car nosing over at 1-2 shift [Re: CokeBottleKid] #1331715
11/11/12 02:48 PM
11/11/12 02:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406 Offline
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if you pre filter the pump, nothing smaller than 100 micron would be my suggestion.

If you have a 10-50 it may cause restriction.







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