Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Hot 340]
#1327497
10/28/12 07:47 PM
10/28/12 07:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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A well designed oil pan is better.
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Hot 340]
#1327499
10/28/12 07:49 PM
10/28/12 07:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
Locomotion
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
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There will always be people on both sides of the fence and designs vary as well. But in the Stock classes, most small block racers do not use a tray. Not sure about big blocks, but they are somewhat different with "skirted" blocks. Personally, I use a double-sided scraper. I always felt that an OEM style tray can actually trap too much oil. For as long as I remember, I always heard that the "windows" in the trays need to be opened up. Basically bending open the flaps more for drainage. I believe screens are better than trays because of the drainage area, but scrapers actually "scrape" the oil from around the crank to keep it from staying wrapped around it. A properly designed scraper and tray/screen can offer the most oil control. But it gets complicated and expensive. More info on scrapers here: Crank scrapers
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Locomotion]
#1327500
10/28/12 08:26 PM
10/28/12 08:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
340B5
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
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I used the factory windage tray for a frame for the screen. The screen is from Canton. 
Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Hot 340]
#1327501
10/28/12 08:37 PM
10/28/12 08:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
Chris2581
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
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I agree with Myron (Locomotion) about this. FWIW..I decided NOT to use a windage tray on my 440,instead used a crank scraper from the company in Locomotions post.In the past,a windage tray was always used.I have found that the scraper works and the oil pressure is rock steady.I'm not going to drop the pan and install a windage tray for a comparison,but I feel the scraper is doing it's job very well.
Nautilus Racing-
We use Superformance gaskets and Turbo Action converters/products.
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: rowin4]
#1327504
10/28/12 08:59 PM
10/28/12 08:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,395
Pa
Hot 340
OP
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,395
Pa
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Quote:
How much power do you think is lost during the launch with the rotating assembly fighting all that oil?
This is my thinking as well and why Im considering it for use on my low-budget smallblock...Cab, why do you say no on a sb?
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Hot 340]
#1327505
10/28/12 09:17 PM
10/28/12 09:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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I use to run NHRA stock, some of the fastest NHRA SB engine builders and racer said to not use the stock windage tray in the SB, I was dumb enough to not trust them so I did a A,B,A back to back teston a customers 1971 340 on a DTS engine dyno to see if they where right on the stock 340 windage tray  It lost HP and torque with the tray in it above 4500 RPM  Another freind of mine that has set several NHRA class records did use the one way oil screen on a stock cut out windage tary like on the picture on here, that works  
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: rowin4]
#1327506
10/28/12 10:13 PM
10/28/12 10:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
Locomotion
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
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Quote:
With the typical factory windage tray it would seem to limit the amount of oil pushed up into the rear of the rotating assembly on a hard launch, also to the front on hard braking. The screen system I would think would drop the oil out faster during the run for more oil return into the pan. How much power do you think is lost during the launch with the rotating assembly fighting all that oil? 
I don't think that trays, especially on a small block, are tight-fitting enough to keep much oil that sloshes back from making its way above the tray anyway. The sump should be baffled to help keep oil there contained and the oil level drops a bit as rpm come up because it's getting pumped. The back "ledge" however, is somewhat an oil trap on accelleration.
One also has to consider the fact that oil is also draining down from the heads and cam in addition to "leaking" out from the rod and main bearings. Without proper drainage, a tray can literally "catch" that oil and keep it caught up in the windage/vortex. That's why you hear about builders emphasizing proper clearances and oil restrictions to the rockers. The trick is to know how much to restrict so you don't starve anything up top. Every little bit helps. It's just a matter of how important a few more HP is and what you are willing to gamble - just like draining some engine oil or differential fluid for a heads-up run for a couple of hundredths in ET.
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Locomotion]
#1327507
10/29/12 09:31 AM
10/29/12 09:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,986
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,986
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Quote:
There will always be people on both sides of the fence and designs vary as well. But in the Stock classes, most small block racers do not use a tray. Not sure about big blocks, but they are somewhat different with "skirted" blocks.
Personally, I use a double-sided scraper. I always felt that an OEM style tray can actually trap too much oil. For as long as I remember, I always heard that the "windows" in the trays need to be opened up. Basically bending open the flaps more for drainage. I believe screens are better than trays because of the drainage area, but scrapers actually "scrape" the oil from around the crank to keep it from staying wrapped around it. A properly designed scraper and tray/screen can offer the most oil control. But it gets complicated and expensive.
More info on scrapers here:
Crank scrapers
Look at the environment changes from when a windage tray was designed to what we want to use them in.
Loose clearances add a lot of oil flow, rpm is much higher than stock creating a storm in the crank case that probably doubles the windage in the crank case at the minimum and goes through the roof on a max stroked, tightly confined space like a low deck stroker, which is also seeing the huge increase in piston displacement of air in the crank case.
My own experiences have shown that a b motor 499 doesn't like a screen/dragster pan at all, a side bucket pan with a big kickout helped a lot and reduced the tremendous amount of oil being forced out through the vacuum pump or breathers, and that a scraper combined with the side bucket pan and screen not only kept the oil out of the puke tank of the vacuum pump but stopped the problem I had with losing oil pressure when braking hard. So each increase in windage (rpm, stroke)and oil volume (big bearing clearances) adds to the problem.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1327508
10/29/12 10:58 AM
10/29/12 10:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5
Tampa, FL
Kevin_Johnson
member
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member
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Posts: 5
Tampa, FL
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Quote:
I use to run NHRA stock, some of the fastest NHRA SB engine builders and racer said to not use the stock windage tray in the SB, I was dumb enough to not trust them so I did a A,B,A back to back teston a customers 1971 340 on a DTS engine dyno to see if they where right on the stock 340 windage tray It lost HP and torque with the tray in it above 4500 RPM Another freind of mine that has set several NHRA class records did use the one way oil screen on a stock cut out windage tary like on the picture on here, that works
My guess is that 4-bolt caps were being used (?) with the stock tray. At high rpms the bay to bay pumping exchange is limited and that will cost hp.
It gets complicated.
One of Smokey's Nascar 2-bolt main blocks has rounded main caps for that reason. You see that on many modern engines.
Windage trays have diametrically opposed technical requirements which are typically best met with multiple layer trays.
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Kevin_Johnson]
#1327509
10/29/12 01:32 PM
10/29/12 01:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060
Western New York
sixpackbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060
Western New York
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No question on a small block no tray. Big block/Hemi use a tray. In either case use a well designed scrapper. Thats the Clifts notes version.
1959 Bugeye Sprite
1967 Charger Black L code
1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner
1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM
1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96
1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car
1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85
1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96
1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13
1971 MG Midget
1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57
1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: What's the verdict on windage trays?
[Re: Kevin_Johnson]
#1327511
10/29/12 11:19 PM
10/29/12 11:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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I run a stock tray ( slots opened up ) with an 8 qt Milodon baffled pan runing 7 qts in it.
Fastest 300
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I make and use my own crankshaft scrapers on both 
