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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: Rhinodart]
#1326214
10/26/12 09:50 PM
10/26/12 09:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,510
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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Joined: Jan 2003
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N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:
They probably threw out all the records then too. 
The info I was given came in the late '90's as they were doing a lot of archive research for the planned Walter P. Chrysler Museum and at that time they knew the data still existed and they were a little frustated too. I firmly believe there still is information available in a storage form that they are not willing to invest anything into retrieving. Shoot I borrowed a floppy disc player to retrieve photos of Calvin Smith's A12 Bee I took in 2000....I'm even too cheap to invest in old data retrieval equipment, just wish the boys down under would loan the equipment to Chrysler Archives/Museum... 
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: A12]
#1326215
10/26/12 10:09 PM
10/26/12 10:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,003
Salem
Grizzly
Moparts Proctologist
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Moparts Proctologist
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,003
Salem
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Thank-you, Mike. It's pretty close to my rant from about 5 or so years ago. I was reluctant to put up that point of view then, not so much anymore. With the ducks you have in a row there is plenty of gas for the fire.  Chrysler owes us something for the number of vehicles we have bought from them.....I don't think it's too much to ask to revive the back-up records that most certainly exist.
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: 1cuda]
#1326217
10/26/12 10:37 PM
10/26/12 10:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,510
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,510
N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:
I remember talking to Thomas at Chrysler historical and he said there was a mountain of paperwork to get through and even though most of it is irrelevant to build records you never know what we will find. Is he still around because he said he also worked at the Australian assembly plant and still had relatives here (I'm in oz) .
I also remember talking to the late and great Daniel Banker who had a friend in some department which had access to vin records for automotive insurance fraud cases.Daniel said the guy looked up the vin of his cars and they were on file (illegally) as they should only be accessed if directly relating to a case.
I told this to Thomas at the time and said surely Chrysler historical could call back vin info from this database and he said it would release private names of who ownedthe cars and then its intruding the privacy act .
All the best Frank
I've also spoken with Bruce many times but he was not the person that confirmed that the data still existed in the irretrievable format and the financial dilemma that keeps the vault sealed. 
But if you can access the link to the A12 Registry maybe we can help to open this vault or at the least find more information than ever before. Read the entire thread on the A12 Reg....please
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: 1cuda]
#1326218
10/26/12 10:56 PM
10/26/12 10:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Thanks for all of this info!  I've posted this question before, and met with the same fire/flood stuff. Anyone who has seen the aftermath of a fire can understand why fire/flood could be an answer! As for the legality of releasing owner info, IF the data was still around and IF it could be retrieved and reformatted to a modern database, it would be a simple thing to provide only (example) column A (VIN) thru Column X (selling dealer info), and not printing/supplying Column Y, Z, AA, AB (Owner's name, address etc). Sure would be nice to arm twist Mopar into using all the royalties from licensing repro parts and other vintage uses (shirts, hot wheels) for the historic group. 
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: A12]
#1326219
10/26/12 10:59 PM
10/26/12 10:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 641
western australia
1cuda
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 641
western australia
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Read the thread on the a12 forum. Great reading. I do believe the information is somewhere and if the right person with the right access with the right machinery presses the right buttons it can be retrieved. It might not even be where we think. So the first reply to my post was more than likely correct.  All the best Frank
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: not_a_charger]
#1326221
10/27/12 07:18 PM
10/27/12 07:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,900
Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
Diego (not Ted)
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Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
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It seems every manufacturer has had a fire that has destroyed the records.  First off, I don't think it is in the interest of the manufacturers to organize these records, as they are in the business of selling new cars. But what if they exist? Sure, sometimes it's the format. Sometimes people raped and pillaged the bookcases. Sometimes things were thrown out because keeping old paperwork costs money (especially considering Chrysler's health in the 1970s was not great). We know there are some records in Highland Park because Darryl Davis has compiled stats for the Maxies and Cross-Ram cars. And Galen has accumulated some of the production reports and made a business selling information (I'm sure someone here has some of the same paperwork; I, for one, have maybe 4 cars). And then Brandt Rosenbusch has some documents, although I am unsure what he has other than it may not go beyond 1967. I've been to the GM Heritage Center and the level of info that exists varies by manufacturer, partly because each GM brand functioned as its own entity and partly because the info experienced the same things that I suggested happened to Chrysler's docs. Pontiac Historical Services has the invoices and some production paperwork that the GMHC doesn't have, and vice versa; they haven't combined their resources because they have been in court fighting each other, believe it or not, so the hobbyist loses.
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#1326223
10/28/12 01:42 AM
10/28/12 01:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,510
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,510
N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:
Researching old history/records cost $$$,no profit,no logical reason from a manufacturers standpoint to do it.It would have to be cost effective and would they ever recover their investment ? I seriously doubt it,don't hold your breath! 
Totaly agree with you Bill on that one especially if it is true that it exists on that old format electronic data storage (tape).
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: 1cuda]
#1326225
10/28/12 09:15 PM
10/28/12 09:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,510
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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Quote:
Yes and no. We actually haven't had any word that anything exists. If the records do exist in either punchcard or microfiche then the costs would be the same as the 67 and earlier cars which they do provide a service for now. If however they said we do have the information but it's stored in a format that requires too much money to make it viable to retrieve then thats a different scenario. This question has been around for many years with no answer but no one gets an answer without asking a question. Thats why I asked.
All the best Frank
Frank, how about if you contact these people and and see if they would give Chrysler a "discounted price"  to retrieve the data.....they already spent the money to figure out how to retrieve the so called NASA moon data and were probably paid more than enough to cover any costs so now they would be making money retrieving other non-NASA data. If they say they are willing then we can have someone who knows Brandt  to start to see if the rumor of the tape data is really true 
Quote:
SpectrumData subsequently moved the tapes into a climate-controlled room, and it even managed to locate a very rare 1960s IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive at the Australian Computer Museum Society, which has agreed to loan the company the drive so that the data can be recovered.
Unfortunately, it seems that the tape drive, which is the size of a household fridge, is in need of some attention in order to get it working again.
"The drives are extremely rare; we don't know of any others that are still operating," Guy Holmes, CEO of SpectrumData, was reported as saying by ABC News.
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: A12]
#1326226
10/28/12 11:15 PM
10/28/12 11:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Just for the computer historians out there, a few questions to try to get a grasp of the POSSIBLITY of them on tape. How much data was stored on each tape? How much data is on each punchcard (IE, how much data per vehicle)? What were the production numbers per year? This would give an idea of the scope of the data to be retrieved. MARTI gets from 17 to 220 per report. http://www.martiauto.com/secure/report_chart.cfmI'd imagine that there is a market for this type of thing for Mopars!
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: RodStRace]
#1326227
10/29/12 01:57 AM
10/29/12 01:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,510
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Just for the computer historians out there, a few questions to try to get a grasp of the POSSIBLITY of them on tape.
How much data was stored on each tape?
How much data is on each punchcard (IE, how much data per vehicle)?
What were the production numbers per year?
This would give an idea of the scope of the data to be retrieved.
MARTI gets from 17 to 220 per report.
http://www.martiauto.com/secure/report_chart.cfm
I'd imagine that there is a market for this type of thing for Mopars!
I'm not sure if this is on just one 24" tape roll or all of them.....
Quote:
The original 305 RAMAC computer system could be housed in a room of about 9 m (30 ft) by 15 m (50 ft); the 350 disk storage unit measured around 1.5 square metres (16 sq ft). The first hard disk unit was shipped September 13, 1956.[4] The additional components of the computer were a card punch, a central processing unit, a power supply unit, an operator's console/card reader unit, and a printer. There was also a manual inquiry station that allowed direct access to stored records. IBM touted the system as being able to store the equivalent of 64,000 punched cards.[3]
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: 1cuda]
#1326229
10/29/12 08:04 AM
10/29/12 08:04 AM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 409
Lexington NC
twinscrew698
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 409
Lexington NC
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Quote:
Definitely will be making some calls and emails. What is the best way to contact Chrysler historical?
More questions- what format did Ford and GM use?
would they have had a similar computer system?
Can anyone post a Ford or GM buildsheet or punchcard?
All the best Frank
Here ya go...
http://wpchryslermuseum.org/page.aspx?pid=400
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: NV69B7RR]
#1326231
10/29/12 01:22 PM
10/29/12 01:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Production numbers per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Automobile_Production_FiguresNo mention if this is car/trucks or just cars. 1968 Plymouth 790,239 Dodge 627,533 Chrysler 264,853 TOTAL 1,682,625 1969 Plymouth 751,134 Dodge 611,645 Chrysler 260,773 TOTAL 1,623,552 1970 Plymouth 747,508 Dodge 543,019 Chrysler 180,777 TOTAL 1,471,304 1971 Plymouth 702,113 Dodge 551,386 Chrysler 175,118 TOTAL 1,428,677 1972 Plymouth 756,605 Dodge 577,870 Chrysler 204,704 TOTAL 1,539,179 1968-72 TOTAL 6,316,660 That's a LOT of punch cards! 
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Re: 1968 onward lost build records?
[Re: A12]
#1326232
10/29/12 01:32 PM
10/29/12 01:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Chino Valley
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Quote:
I'm not sure if this is on just one 24" tape roll or all of them.....
Quote:
The original 305 RAMAC computer system could be housed in a room of about 9 m (30 ft) by 15 m (50 ft); the 350 disk storage unit measured around 1.5 square metres (16 sq ft). The first hard disk unit was shipped September 13, 1956.[4] The additional components of the computer were a card punch, a central processing unit, a power supply unit, an operator's console/card reader unit, and a printer. There was also a manual inquiry station that allowed direct access to stored records. IBM touted the system as being able to store the equivalent of 64,000 punched cards.[3]
Quote:
1968-72 TOTAL
6,316,660
That's a LOT of punch cards!
So roughly one hundred tapes OR one hundred sets of tapes! By the sound of the description, the SYSTEM could store that much, so a wild guess is one hundred sets of tapes!
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