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How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
#1292633
08/28/12 12:38 AM
08/28/12 12:38 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
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What is it? Im not talking about granny shifting, or hard street driving which is pretty much all tire spin...Im talking straight powershifting, beat the snot outta it track cars.
My 3400lb pig was running 11.80's before the motor just ate a bearing, and I was also going to spray it but not sure if the transmission can handle it...was aiming for high tens, and still using my centerforce dual friction clutch
So I would like to hear how fast you went/how much power, weight of the car, clutch, gear, tire, etc. Just trying to see if it is still worth trying to get a 23 spline to live up to the added power, or if I will be running it on borrowed time
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: HPMike]
#1292635
08/28/12 02:38 AM
08/28/12 02:38 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 399
metro detroit
turner
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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metro detroit
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I had one in my 65 Satellite, 3600lbs, 440, 4 speed, 4:10 geared, would 60' at 1.54 and run 11.30's, also had the 11" centerforce dual friction and a lakewood housing, 28x10 MT slick..........I could never break mine and it was a street car and I would drop the clutch at about 3500 off the line
Last edited by turner; 08/28/12 02:39 AM.
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: mshred]
#1292636
08/28/12 02:56 AM
08/28/12 02:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,479
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Had a 23 spline in a few cars my buddy street raced.
THEY CAN TAKE A BEATING.
Make no mistake about it, For decades I watched one of the best speed shifters on the planet street race. Foot to the floor, yank the gears. Day after day after day.
He had brand new 18 spline transmissions, wouldn't consider using them. He would ONLY use a 23 spline 4 speed, and it HAD to have a scattershield and a pistol grip shifter.
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: scatpacktom]
#1292640
08/28/12 07:22 PM
08/28/12 07:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 726
ohio
mike67net
mopar addict
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mopar addict
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Quote:
OH, they can take a real beating right up till one of the speed gears seizes to the mainshaft and you go through the traps with the wheels locked up at 120 mph and the track has to winch your car up on a rollback and when you get back to your pit spot they slam the bed back and forth till your car "comes off" and then you are stuck with a car 20 feet from where it needs to be with no real good way of getting it there. 
That sounds like experience talking, had to suck to be you that day. 
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: mike67net]
#1292641
08/28/12 09:11 PM
08/28/12 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
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I have ran 23 spline 833's for over 40 years mostly in racing applications and never heard of gears seizing on the shafts. I have broke input shafts, out put shafts and 3rd gear cluster & main gear. As power goes up you will find that the 3rd gear will push away from itself and boom, you got a gunk transmission, did that 3 times. Now run a Liberty pro shifted Doug Nash, I broke that to, shifting into 2nd with the wheels in the air puts allot of stress on 2nd gear, about $1300.00 worth : 
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: mshred]
#1292643
08/28/12 11:59 PM
08/28/12 11:59 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
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Quote:
all I can say is that what I am hearing is not sounding too comforting, although I still dont have a ballpark idea of how much they can take 
The answer is easy..
About as much power as a bone stock 340 or 383 puts out. 
All kidding aside, not to belabor the point, but the FACTORY felt that all 440/426's got 18 spline trans'...That should give you some indication of how much faith the guys with the horn rimmed glasses and pocket protectors thought, anyway.
Yes, as stated, the 23 spline is pretty tough, but why push the envelope? Heck, the prices on good used 18 spline gears, clusters and input shafts have come way down now that you can buy them in the aftermarket. I recently bought a good used Hemi trans for 600 for a customer. Or you can use your case, synchro assms and main shaft. All you need is a matching gearset a set of bearings, a gasket kit and small parts. Building the trans is about the easiest thing you can do on one of these....
MB
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: mshred]
#1292644
08/29/12 09:10 AM
08/29/12 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
all I can say is that what I am hearing is not sounding too comforting, although I still dont have a ballpark idea of how much they can take
Why don't you spray it and tell us? None of the guys above have said they are on the juice so their stories only partly help, your clutch may or may not, I'll eer on the side of not, handle the hit of spray so the trans will hold up just fine I would think ...
Buy a couple of spare transmissions and clutches and take them to the track with you .
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: Paul_Fancsali]
#1292647
08/29/12 03:21 PM
08/29/12 03:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
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Lets think about this for a second, Its the input shaft thats a fine spline, 23, vs an 18 spline. So really the tranny behind it is the same, only different ratios, but the basic trans is the same. So unless your snapping off, or buzzing the splines bald, they in theory can take as much as an 18 which is a heck of a lot of abuse. A far superior 4 gear than that of any GM, or Ford ever came with. Thats why they were transplanted into so many Camaros, Chevelles, and muskrats back in the day.
I pound the hell out of the tranny in the Demon, and I know there has been a few in this area that got a far worse beating than I can put on one.
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: Moparnut426]
#1292648
08/29/12 03:32 PM
08/29/12 03:32 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
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Quote:
Lets think about this for a second, Its the input shaft thats a fine spline, 23, vs an 18 spline. So really the tranny behind it is the same, only different ratios, but the basic trans is the same. So unless your snapping off, or buzzing the splines bald, they in theory can take as much as an 18 which is a heck of a lot of abuse. A far superior 4 gear than that of any GM, or Ford ever came with. Thats why they were transplanted into so many Camaros, Chevelles, and muskrats back in the day.
I pound the hell out of the tranny in the Demon, and I know there has been a few in this area that got a far worse beating than I can put on one.
Sorry, but you're wrong....
18 spline gears are bushed and the teeth are heavier and have more root thickness. The pitch is even different. Other than the mainshaft, case and sychro assms, they are as different as cats and dogs...
MB
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: HPMike]
#1292649
08/29/12 03:33 PM
08/29/12 03:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
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Quote:
Quote:
Lets think about this for a second, Its the input shaft thats a fine spline, 23, vs an 18 spline. So really the tranny behind it is the same, only different ratios, but the basic trans is the same. So unless your snapping off, or buzzing the splines bald, they in theory can take as much as an 18 which is a heck of a lot of abuse. A far superior 4 gear than that of any GM, or Ford ever came with. Thats why they were transplanted into so many Camaros, Chevelles, and muskrats back in the day.
I pound the hell out of the tranny in the Demon, and I know there has been a few in this area that got a far worse beating than I can put on one.
Sorry, but you're wrong....
18 spline gears are bushed and the teeth are heavier and have more root thickness. The pitch is even different. Other than the mainshaft, case and sychro assms, they are as different as cats and dogs...
MB
Thanks, didnt know about the bushed gears.
Learn something every day, but the basic design is the same is it not?
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: Moparnut426]
#1292650
08/29/12 04:42 PM
08/29/12 04:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
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U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lets think about this for a second, Its the input shaft thats a fine spline, 23, vs an 18 spline. So really the tranny behind it is the same, only different ratios, but the basic trans is the same. So unless your snapping off, or buzzing the splines bald, they in theory can take as much as an 18 which is a heck of a lot of abuse. A far superior 4 gear than that of any GM, or Ford ever came with. Thats why they were transplanted into so many Camaros, Chevelles, and muskrats back in the day.
I pound the hell out of the tranny in the Demon, and I know there has been a few in this area that got a far worse beating than I can put on one.
Sorry, but you're wrong....
18 spline gears are bushed and the teeth are heavier and have more root thickness. The pitch is even different. Other than the mainshaft, case and sychro assms, they are as different as cats and dogs...
MB
Thanks, didnt know about the bushed gears.
Learn something every day, but the basic design is the same is it not?
The design is the same but the gears are different and that is why the 18 spline is stronger than a 23 spline, as Mike said.
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: cudadoug]
#1292652
08/29/12 07:32 PM
08/29/12 07:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
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Hey guys, thanks for all the input! I love racing and driving the stick, but I really want to throw some serious power at this thing on the spray (or possibly stroke it and spray it...engine is coming out again this winter to deal with a bearing issue I had at the last outing). Im just worried that with what I want to do (high tens or faster) that its going to be on borrowed time- my car isn't exactly light, and I powershift the hell out of it, using a non adjustable pressure plate. I already have a backup trans that I keep fresh just in case (had to use it already this year when my main one had a cracked third gear synchro), but if im throwing too much power where it breaks all the time, a spare wont do me good.
I was thinking about an adjustable clutch, but not sure how close I can get it setup without a data logger, and it seems like its the 2-3 gear change that seems to be the weak point for this transmission, so not sure how much the adjustable would help that
18 splines are just too ridiculous in price to buy and convert for an a-body, and to have 2 would be even crazier- I would be better off with a race transmission like a Jerico/G-force of some sort, but those are serious coin used as well, and I would need a new clutch, bell, and shifter also...Gosh does being addicted to speed suck on the financial side of things lol
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: JohnRR]
#1292653
08/29/12 07:43 PM
08/29/12 07:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
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Quote:
Quote:
all I can say is that what I am hearing is not sounding too comforting, although I still dont have a ballpark idea of how much they can take
Why don't you spray it and tell us? None of the guys above have said they are on the juice so their stories only partly help, your clutch may or may not, I'll eer on the side of not, handle the hit of spray so the trans will hold up just fine I would think ...
Buy a couple of spare transmissions and clutches and take them to the track with you .
Car runs 11.80's now, is sooo close to breakin into the .70's when I get the chassis completely sorted out...I want to hit it atleast with a 100 shot, and work up to a 175-200 hit- Thats what im worried about with the 23 spline, is the hits on the spray
Im too poor to be a guinea pig lol...I'd rather be able to get rid of both transmission while they are still in working condition and worth something to upgrade to whatever else I choose then sell them with broken parts
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: mshred]
#1292655
08/30/12 02:35 PM
08/30/12 02:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
all I can say is that what I am hearing is not sounding too comforting, although I still dont have a ballpark idea of how much they can take
Why don't you spray it and tell us? None of the guys above have said they are on the juice so their stories only partly help, your clutch may or may not, I'll eer on the side of not, handle the hit of spray so the trans will hold up just fine I would think ...
Buy a couple of spare transmissions and clutches and take them to the track with you .
Car runs 11.80's now, is sooo close to breakin into the .70's when I get the chassis completely sorted out...I want to hit it atleast with a 100 shot, and work up to a 175-200 hit- Thats what im worried about with the 23 spline, is the hits on the spray
Im too poor to be a guinea pig lol...I'd rather be able to get rid of both transmission while they are still in working condition and worth something to upgrade to whatever else I choose then sell them with broken parts
There ya have a fine thought. Ive often thought of pulling my set up, which is basically like new, all rebuilt trnny, newer clutch, blowproof bell, billet flywheel, HD rods, and sell it for a good amount down on a 5 speed set up. BUT like ya said being low on coin and having to sell stuff for the parts sucks really bad.
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: astjp2]
#1292657
08/30/12 05:23 PM
08/30/12 05:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Toronto
mshred
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Quote:
When I called Liberty, a set of cryo'd Korean 18 spline gears was around $1100.00, if I had the extra coin, I would have them.
Haven't heard much good about those gears in the past...what did Liberty have to say about them???
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: perfmachst]
#1292658
08/30/12 05:24 PM
08/30/12 05:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Toronto
mshred
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hi, I ran the 23 spline slick shifted with synthetic gear oil for years. only problem was 3 rd gear, broke 2 of them. I ran it from 1977 to 2009, replaced it with a jerico. the car is a NHRA stocker 340 duster. jerico will save you money and time. they will bolt up to your bellhousing.
How fast was the car running? And at what weight? Did it have an adjustable clutch?
I always thought a Jerico would require a bellhousing swap, not to mention they are some serious coin even used
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: mshred]
#1292659
08/30/12 05:41 PM
08/30/12 05:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
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You already know the answer Matt...lol
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1292660
08/30/12 05:43 PM
08/30/12 05:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Toronto
mshred
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You already know the answer Matt...lol
Todd, what is the answer in your opinion??? LOL
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: mshred]
#1292661
08/31/12 01:16 AM
08/31/12 01:16 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 726
ohio
mike67net
mopar addict
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mopar addict
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Quote:
Quote:
hi, I ran the 23 spline slick shifted with synthetic gear oil for years. only problem was 3 rd gear, broke 2 of them. I ran it from 1977 to 2009, replaced it with a jerico. the car is a NHRA stocker 340 duster. jerico will save you money and time. they will bolt up to your bellhousing.
How fast was the car running? And at what weight? Did it have an adjustable clutch?
I always thought a Jerico would require a bellhousing swap, not to mention they are some serious coin even used
That serious coin depends on how you look at it. I wasted some serious coin by paying Liberty to go though my tranny and slick shift as well. I got 9 passes out of that investment, some pretty expensive trips down the track. That money would have paid for about half of my Jerico, money much better spent.
You don't need to do a bellhousing swap if you already have a Lakewood, you just need to re-drill it for the Jerico
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: perfmachst]
#1292665
09/02/12 09:39 PM
09/02/12 09:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,169
MI
68shifter
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super stock
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Matt, be aware that if you remove the 4 speed you will be required to pm me your address so I can send a couple skirts your way...  I went through 2 of the Korean gear sets in my 18 splines, both kryo'd and mikronited. Both broke, 3rd, at about 35-36 passes in a 3300lb a body running 10.40's. That was with an adjustable clutch. The clutch change helped prolong stuff until the trans upgrade. I'm on year 6 of the adjustable clutch and still no racepak or anything. Am I leaving something on the table? Probably but I don't run class stuff so if I was that concerned with a couple hundreths I'd put myself on a diet. Good luck.
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Re: How much of a beating can a 23 spline take???
[Re: 68shifter]
#1292667
09/04/12 08:18 PM
09/04/12 08:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Toronto
mshred
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Quote:
Matt, be aware that if you remove the 4 speed you will be required to pm me your address so I can send a couple skirts your way...
I went through 2 of the Korean gear sets in my 18 splines, both kryo'd and mikronited. Both broke, 3rd, at about 35-36 passes in a 3300lb a body running 10.40's. That was with an adjustable clutch. The clutch change helped prolong stuff until the trans upgrade.
I'm on year 6 of the adjustable clutch and still no racepak or anything. Am I leaving something on the table? Probably but I don't run class stuff so if I was that concerned with a couple hundreths I'd put myself on a diet.
Good luck.
I just might have to pm you then lol...I have been looking since early summer for a used Jerico/G-Force for a good deal, but nothing that I have been able to swing the cash for. Its strictly coming down to a cash game for me right now. Im going to still look into the winter, but if nothing, an auto will probably be finding its way into the car 
Good to know though that those Korean gearsets aren't the bees knees. Ditto on the racepak, I think I could get away without one as well if I go the adjustable route
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