Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
#1241070
05/28/12 01:38 PM
05/28/12 01:38 PM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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OK.. so I have some questions.. when I had the 904 put together in my Dart, I used a Griner reverse manual VB with low band apply (I don't even know what that means), low 1st gear set, upgraded clutches, blah blah blah.
So - now that I'm getting closer to getting this thing on the road -
What is a "low band apply" and how does it impact the shifting/driving characteristics of the car? What is it for?
I've heard that you're not supposed to do burnouts in 1st gear.. why is that? Is that true? Do you start in 2nd gear when doing a burnout?
Any tips/tricks or other things I should be aware of for driving a car with a manual VB?
Car does NOT have a transbrake or linelock in it.. so for the burnouts, I'll just be holding my foot on the brake pedal while giving it gas.
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1241071
05/28/12 01:56 PM
05/28/12 01:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,848
Memphis
HemiRick
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Memphis
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In short the low band apply is GOOD it keeps the trans from exploding if you do a burnout wrong. What you dont want to do is let off the gas at high RPM in 1st gear. You do want to do a burnout starting in 1st, but make sure it shifts into 2nd and or even 3rd before letting off the gas.
Take care,
Rick
68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: HemiRick]
#1241072
05/28/12 03:12 PM
05/28/12 03:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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Texas
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Quote:
In short the low band apply is GOOD it keeps the trans from exploding if you do a burnout wrong. What you dont want to do is let off the gas at high RPM in 1st gear. You do want to do a burnout starting in 1st, but make sure it shifts into 2nd and or even 3rd before letting off the gas.
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1241073
05/28/12 05:03 PM
05/28/12 05:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,765
A collage of whims
topside
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I used to do my burnouts starting in 1st and immediately going to 2nd, then 2rd, 6000 RPM max, and after a few seconds in 3rd you could hear the motor being dragged down a bit; let off the line-loc button, lift smoothly, drive it out.
Now (new trans w/low-band apply) I start in 2nd, go to 3rd pretty quickly, otherwise same procedure.
I noticed the line-loc holds the car better starting in 2nd. Starting the burnout in 2nd is allegedly easier on the sprag, or so I've been told.
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1241074
05/28/12 05:38 PM
05/28/12 05:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,786
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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Sounds like Cal is intending to do burnouts off-track.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#1241075
05/28/12 05:44 PM
05/28/12 05:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Sounds like Cal is intending to do burnouts off-track.
Not necessarily.. I just want to make sure I understand what to do, and more importantly - what NOT to do with this transmission setup.
It will eventually make it to the drag strip - more just to satisfy my curiosity than anything.. I know it won't be a killer at the track by any means... it'll probably get laughed off the track, actually. I'm expecting low 14's or so out of it ... the Chevy guys should find it quite humorous.
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1241079
05/28/12 06:05 PM
05/28/12 06:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
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Quote:
I'm guessing that means the car will have to have enough torque to start the tires spinning in 2nd gear.... we'll see.
Cal---the SHIFTER will be in second, but the Tranny will start in 1st, then shift to second.
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1241080
05/28/12 06:23 PM
05/28/12 06:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm guessing that means the car will have to have enough torque to start the tires spinning in 2nd gear.... we'll see.
Cal---the SHIFTER will be in second, but the Tranny will start in 1st, then shift to second.
Even with a manual VB?
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: buildanother]
#1241082
05/28/12 06:50 PM
05/28/12 06:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
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las vegas
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if you accelerate in low gear and let off the gas..and the transmission does not slow the car down by braking in low gear....no low band applied..
if you accelerate in low gear and let off the gas..and the transmission does slow the car down by internal braking...you have low band applied..
he said he had a 904...904 do not explode the front drum like a 727 do its smaller size...
you can start you burn out in 1st...just shift into 2nd gear before you leave the water..at least that is what the Turbo Action instructions say that comes with their cheetah manual valve body.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1241083
05/28/12 07:03 PM
05/28/12 07:03 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm guessing that means the car will have to have enough torque to start the tires spinning in 2nd gear.... we'll see.
Cal---the SHIFTER will be in second, but the Tranny will start in 1st, then shift to second.
Even with a manual VB?
Oops. I didn't see that you have a manual valve body. I would start in first, and not let the tires grab until your out of first. Also the tire you have on the car plays into it. If you don't have sticky meats is not as critical.
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#1241084
05/28/12 07:05 PM
05/28/12 07:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,177
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
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A 904 with a LBA Griner will be fairly bulletproof. You can start a burnout in low if you need to, but pull 2nd as soon as the RPM's come up, and 3rd if you can. Make sure to let off the gas before the tires grab to save shock on the ring and pinion. One thing you do NOT want to do is downshift into low gear while you are moving at more than a crawl. Trust me on this, I have 2 trans' with LBA Griner's. 
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: slantzilla]
#1241085
05/28/12 10:04 PM
05/28/12 10:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
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The one reason they never used low band apply years ago is because it gives a fast 1-2 shift without low band apply. But if you do a burnout in first without low band apply it can hurt the trans. You dont want to get on and off the gas with no low band apply in first. The down fall of low band apply is that if the low-reverse band does not release quick enough (before the kickdown band applies) you can get shift overlap which can slow you down from the 2 elements fighting each other which will cause the trans and eng to drag down some before the low band releases and the kickdown band applies. You want the low-reverse band to release before the kickdown band applies to eliminate shift overlap ( 2 elements fightin each other). Its like trying to be in 1st and 2nd gear at the same time. You will still have low without the low band apply as the overrunning clutch (sprag) will hold in low and it is like a mechanical one way clutch that can get damaged from the tires hooking while doing the burnout or going on and off the gas. The low band apply keeps the drum held and dont release in the rearward direction like the overrunning clutch does. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 05/28/12 10:06 PM.
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: 383man]
#1241086
06/03/12 11:39 AM
06/03/12 11:39 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
The one reason they never used low band apply years ago is because it gives a fast 1-2 shift without low band apply. But if you do a burnout in first without low band apply it can hurt the trans. You dont want to get on and off the gas with no low band apply in first. The down fall of low band apply is that if the low-reverse band does not release quick enough (before the kickdown band applies) you can get shift overlap which can slow you down from the 2 elements fighting each other which will cause the trans and eng to drag down some before the low band releases and the kickdown band applies. You want the low-reverse band to release before the kickdown band applies to eliminate shift overlap ( 2 elements fightin each other). Its like trying to be in 1st and 2nd gear at the same time. You will still have low without the low band apply as the overrunning clutch (sprag) will hold in low and it is like a mechanical one way clutch that can get damaged from the tires hooking while doing the burnout or going on and off the gas. The low band apply keeps the drum held and dont release in the rearward direction like the overrunning clutch does. Ron
 
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#1241087
06/03/12 02:06 PM
06/03/12 02:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
he said he had a 904...904 do not explode the front drum like a 727 do its smaller size...
you can start you burn out in 1st...just shift into 2nd gear before you leave the water..at least that is what the Turbo Action instructions say that comes with their cheetah manual valve body.
Winner!!!
Show me a 904 front drum that has exploded from an over-rev situation behind a 6000 rpm engine. I've never seen one. For that matter, I've never seen a 904 drum exploded. Someone did destructive testing, maybe TCS, the RPM it took to blow a 904 factory drum was above 20K rpm, maybe 23000. Do the math, that's an input shaft rpm of around 9K +...
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: RobX4406]
#1241088
06/03/12 07:39 PM
06/03/12 07:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,177
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
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The drum overspeeds at 2:1, so at 23K you would need 11,500 input RPM.
SFI used to use 727's to test trans shields because the front drum was so easy to explode.
LBA valve body and a billet front drum do wonders, and cost a lot less than a blown up trans.
I have seen cars as slow as 13:70's blow up a 727. The guy got a broken foot fdrom pieces through the floor. He did not want to spend the money on a LBA valve body and did not have a blanket. The month off work cost him a whole lot more than that.
Griner has also fixed the overlap issue with LBA.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Auto Trans / Manual VB, Low band apply, burnouts.. ???
[Re: slantzilla]
#1241089
06/03/12 09:01 PM
06/03/12 09:01 PM
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Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
The drum overspeeds at 2:1, so at 23K you would need 11,500 input RPM.
SFI used to use 727's to test trans shields because the front drum was so easy to explode.
LBA valve body and a billet front drum do wonders, and cost a lot less than a blown up trans.
I have seen cars as slow as 13:70's blow up a 727. The guy got a broken foot fdrom pieces through the floor. He did not want to spend the money on a LBA valve body and did not have a blanket. The month off work cost him a whole lot more than that.
Griner has also fixed the overlap issue with LBA.
Yeah but he has a 904... 
IIRC, the overrev occurs at whatever the low gear ratio is.
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