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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227519
05/06/12 10:46 PM
05/06/12 10:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
OP
I Live Here
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OP
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Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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Mopar Performance Wedge block. Note the water passage in the middle, below where the 2 center exhaust ports would go.
This is a very nice improvement, but if the gasket and the head don't match, then the flow of water stops right there.
There isn't much meat between the cylinders at 4.500!
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227520
05/06/12 11:01 PM
05/06/12 11:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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I Live Here
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OP
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S.E. Michigan
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I had forgotten the old 440 had mismatched heads on it, and that was all I had to use in 1988 when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
It had 346 on one side and 213 on the other....same basic ports, just different numbers. This is the 213 head.
Look how the copper coat is intact between the two outside cylinders and the two inside cylinders......but right in the middle, it's black and burned.
Heat: It's got nowhere to go.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227521
05/06/12 11:14 PM
05/06/12 11:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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S.E. Michigan
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And if you're still with me, here's the gasket, same thing. Copper everywhere, but in the middle it's black. It did appear to still be holding, but there's room for improvement.
To me this looks terrible, but after seeing a few like this I got the "they're all like that" mentality. And I have to admit this never caused me any problems or worry, but the more I mess with these things the more it bugs me.
If I had the resources I think it would be interesting to see what the temperature is right there, then modify with cooling holes and/or hoses, and measure again.
That one spot is usually the first place a head cracks, which I feel is no coincidence.....
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227522
05/06/12 11:19 PM
05/06/12 11:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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OP
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Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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On dwaynes comments:
It looks like sbc had a couple different approaches to the same problem. One big hole with two little ones flanking it...
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227523
05/06/12 11:24 PM
05/06/12 11:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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Or, just two little holes.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227525
05/07/12 12:50 AM
05/07/12 12:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
And if you're still with me, here's the gasket, same thing. Copper everywhere, but in the middle it's black. It did appear to still be holding, but there's room for improvement.
To me this looks terrible, but after seeing a few like this I got the "they're all like that" mentality. And I have to admit this never caused me any problems or worry, but the more I mess with these things the more it bugs me.
If I had the resources I think it would be interesting to see what the temperature is right there, then modify with cooling holes and/or hoses, and measure again.
That one spot is usually the first place a head cracks, which I feel is no coincidence.....
As you see in this photo none of the other water jackets are opened up. But , as I stated earlier, other pioneers of the trade have drilled steam/water holes through that center hole between the two siamiesd exhahust ports.
Is it needed, Probably not! If your worried about it Zip, go ahead and do it. 
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: Sport440]
#1227526
05/07/12 01:05 AM
05/07/12 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
And if you're still with me, here's the gasket, same thing. Copper everywhere, but in the middle it's black. It did appear to still be holding, but there's room for improvement.
To me this looks terrible, but after seeing a few like this I got the "they're all like that" mentality. And I have to admit this never caused me any problems or worry, but the more I mess with these things the more it bugs me.
If I had the resources I think it would be interesting to see what the temperature is right there, then modify with cooling holes and/or hoses, and measure again.
That one spot is usually the first place a head cracks, which I feel is no coincidence.....
As you see in this photo none of the other water jackets are opened up. But , as I stated earlier, other pioneers of the trade have drilled steam/water holes through that center hole between the two siamiesd exhahust ports.
Is it needed, Probably not! If your worried about it Zip, go ahead and do it.
The one thing I wonder about is sealing it , the head gasket is embossed around the other water holes but it wouldn't be arounsd this hole .
I know others have drilled a hole where the head gasket blocks off the lower holes between 1 and 3 and 5 and 7 but the gasket is embossed around those holes.
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227527
05/07/12 09:57 AM
05/07/12 09:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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Same here, was thinking a good quality sealer would likely hold it although it probably wouldn't be considered ideal.
Need to take a look at some different gaskets and see what's out there. Will start with the ones in inventory...
Thought: there might be an off the shelf gasket that could be used as a guide... For small blocks, one of the Mopar manuals recommends using a certain Cometic gasket as a drill template...maybe the same exists for B/RB?
And that would definitely seal since the gasket was designed for it.
That same manual recommends drilling the passage to the outside of the head as shown on the pic of the KB block, but instead of running the water lines to the pump they run them to the center freeze plug of the block....
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227528
05/07/12 10:34 AM
05/07/12 10:34 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Rich I worked on a project engine for DCAE... it was 2 teams of engineers that would build a race car/truck and we ended up drilling coolant holes in the heads.. holes were in the block... we tried a few different sizes to get the flow and cooling right... that ended up in the production engine(I believe it was a 3.5L but I dont recall).. made a big difference on the dyno when we were buzzing it hard and made more power 
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1227529
05/07/12 10:58 AM
05/07/12 10:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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S.E. Michigan
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Yeah Mike, I can see how experimenting with that could pay off big time. Even if the result isn't anything earth shattering...like maybe the valve job holds up slightly longer/better seems it would be worth it. For a guy working at home in the garage, seems like it would be simple to add holes here and there but maybe not so easy to measure improvement though? Backyard approach I guess would be try it, run it for awhile and inspect the head gaskets....at one time I used to have a hookup for thermocouples, not anymore  It does look to already be a proven mod on both RVs and race engines though. Found some gaskets on the web that have the cooling hole, but I'm not sure I trust the pictures....they're usually wrong...but it's all I've got. summit1 this one looks like it might match up to the Mopar performance block...but if it doesn't match the head, then?: summit2
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1227530
05/07/12 11:03 AM
05/07/12 11:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
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Quote:
Yeah Mike, I can see how experimenting with that could pay off big time. Even if the result isn't anything earth shattering...like maybe the valve job holds up slightly longer/better seems it would be worth it.
For a guy working at home in the garage, seems like it would be simple to add holes here and there but maybe not so easy to measure improvement though?
Backyard approach I guess would be try it, run it for awhile and inspect the head gaskets....at one time I used to have a hookup for thermocouples, not anymore It does look to already be a proven mod on both RVs and race engines though.
Found some gaskets on the web that have the cooling hole, but I'm not sure I trust the pictures....they're usually wrong...but it's all I've got.
summit1
this one looks like it might match up to the Mopar performance block...but if it doesn't match the head, then?:
summit2
would the motorhome block have the cooling holes you guys are talking about, if they do and you need a pic I can do that. 
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block
[Re: dartman366]
#1227531
05/07/12 11:20 AM
05/07/12 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah Mike, I can see how experimenting with that could pay off big time. Even if the result isn't anything earth shattering...like maybe the valve job holds up slightly longer/better seems it would be worth it.
For a guy working at home in the garage, seems like it would be simple to add holes here and there but maybe not so easy to measure improvement though?
Backyard approach I guess would be try it, run it for awhile and inspect the head gaskets....at one time I used to have a hookup for thermocouples, not anymore It does look to already be a proven mod on both RVs and race engines though.
Found some gaskets on the web that have the cooling hole, but I'm not sure I trust the pictures....they're usually wrong...but it's all I've got.
summit1
this one looks like it might match up to the Mopar performance block...but if it doesn't match the head, then?:
summit2
would the motorhome block have the cooling holes you guys are talking about, if they do and you need a pic I can do that.
the only holes I have seen on motorhome blocks are the extra holes along the outer edge that correspond to certain heads, Fel Pro 8519 gaskets have the passages in them already. I just worked on a 440 build that had a set of 452's with the holes and just by chance the block I ended up supplying for the build had the holes already in it.
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