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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227235
05/09/12 03:57 PM
05/09/12 03:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Don't get discouraged, hang in there. I'm gonna be in Sacramento in a few weeks for a couple days. I'd be happy to come by and introduce myself and help you with what I know. Which isn't everything but hopfully enough to get you closer. I can bring some basic trouble shooting tools and see what we can find out. Hopefully you will get it straighten out before then. First thing I would do is a compression test since it's SB which are pretty easy to get to the spark plugs. I may even have a good known carb...on my car that I will be driving. We can try it if need be.  I have all the tuning stuff for 1405 too.  I'll PM you the dates if you want and see what your schedule looks like.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227236
05/10/12 03:51 AM
05/10/12 03:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Have you pulled the valve covers to check for any excessively loose rockers ?
Thanks.. no, I haven't yet. I'll try that tomorrow morning.
I did pull 3 of the plugs tonight to take a look at them after having it idle for a little while.. .but they all look so different, I don't know which one to use as an indicator of what's going on!
http://calgecko.smugmug.com/Cars/Dart-Plugs/Plugs/22899968_Bqs8cj#!i=1839331706&k=3pq7Kz8
That's several photos of 3 different plugs, you can see that one of them has dark coloring on one side of the porcelain, but is clean on the other side... one of the plugs has clean porcelain all the way around, and the other is kinda tan...
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1227237
05/10/12 03:52 AM
05/10/12 03:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Don't get discouraged, hang in there.
I'm gonna be in Sacramento in a few weeks for a couple days. I'd be happy to come by and introduce myself and help you with what I know. Which isn't everything but hopfully enough to get you closer.
I can bring some basic trouble shooting tools and see what we can find out.
Hopefully you will get it straighten out before then.
First thing I would do is a compression test since it's SB which are pretty easy to get to the spark plugs.
I may even have a good known carb...on my car that I will be driving. We can try it if need be.
I have all the tuning stuff for 1405 too.
I'll PM you the dates if you want and see what your schedule looks like.
That would be HUGE ... I would really appreciate it if I can't get it running better by that time (or figure out the problem(s) ) ...
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227238
05/10/12 10:50 AM
05/10/12 10:50 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Wow those plugs are really really clean for an engine that wont idle. I would expect carbon fouled plugs. Anyway, from your plugs it looks like you have too much timing. Looks like your air fuel ratio is decent, you could probably stand to richen it up a little bit and see what it does, but I doubt that would make your problem better. Judging by the fact that you're not overly rich, its probably not either of these problems but it might be. 1. Not sure if this was mentioned before but have you verified that the metering rods are staying down at idle? 2. Are you sure that you put the metering rods back in? I've seen people forget them more times than you'd believe 
Last edited by GTX MATT; 05/10/12 10:55 AM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227240
05/10/12 02:49 PM
05/10/12 02:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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more info..
This morning, I pulled all the plugs out and removed the valve covers.. rotated the crank by hand, and am very happy to say that every rocker moved up and down .. they all appeared to move the same amount.. I was a little worried (based on what someone else suggested at one point) that one of my cam lobes may have sheared/flattened...
I'm really wondering if my cam timing is off.... but without having adjustable cam sprockets, I would guess the only way my cam timing would be off is if it's off by an entire tooth... which is possible. When I installed the cam, I did it by lining up the dimples on the gears. I've watched videos on how to degree a cam, and it looks very complicated .. not to mention, it means I've got to pull everything (alternator, fan, water pump, timing cover) off the front of the engine... but if that's what I need to do, I guess I have no choice.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: BTTG]
#1227243
05/10/12 05:04 PM
05/10/12 05:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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Those plugs show that the engine is lean. That will happen when you have a vacum leak. Set your air/fuel mixture screws to 1 1/2 turns out. This setting will be close enough to get it running and chek for vac leaks. Leave the vac to the dist unplugged with the port on the carb plugged. As said before when its running spray something like WD 40, (but not starting fluid)around the base of the carb and the mating surfaces of the heads and manifold.. Get running enough to check for leaks before worring about setting the timing.
Did you timing chain set have the bottom gear with the 3 notches?
Even if you set it to the 4 degrees advanced or retarded it will run smooth except for the lumpity lumpity from the cam.
Tere is a post in the last couple of days that shows the lower gear.
I am truckless..
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: 340SHORTY]
#1227244
05/11/12 08:09 PM
05/11/12 08:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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OK... did some more work...
Using the positive piston stop method, I did find that my balancer's TDC mark is RIGHT ON .. exactly.
So, then someone on another forum said that I should check the valve overlap at TDC at piston #1, and that if anything, the intake valve should be opening just a tad ahead of the exhaust valve. Well, it turns out the exhaust valve is open about .063" more than the intake valve at TDC. Apparently, this is an indicator of cam timing being retarded (might explain why I had to dial my ignition timing up to 30 degrees to get it to sorta run?)
Also, I was told to do a compression test on all cylinders, as the compression can be an indicator of cam timing being off...
compression readings were as follows:
Going around the engine from cylinder #1, by cylinder #
Drivers side, front of engine to back of engine:
cylinder:
1: 92psi
3: 92psi
5: 75psi
7: 80 psi
passenger side, front to back:
2: 90psi
4: 85psi
6: 100 psi
8: 70 psi
Looking more and more like my cam timing is off... .yeah?
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: MNobody]
#1227247
05/12/12 02:17 AM
05/12/12 02:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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Wasnt that motor rebuilt back when you did the Bar B Que post? How did you do the comp test? Those reading are really low for a new engine. Stop chasing all the things you suspect are wrong. Work on 1 problem and cure or confirm its right.
I am truckless..
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227249
05/12/12 03:51 AM
05/12/12 03:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Mark I don't see or remember seeing anything about this ...
You have a stock point distributor wit ha pertronics installed , correct ? Have you made any changes it to it to limit mechanical advance ? If the answer is no you want to keep your initial timing to no more than 5 degrees because the distributor has too much mechanical advance in it ....
This of course is after you figure out the cam timing issue .
Yeah, stock distributor with pertronix ignitor installed... I have not changed anything else within the distributor. Ain't no way it would idle at anything close to 5 degrees unless something drastic changes 
how about a SBC swap? LOL
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227250
05/12/12 03:59 AM
05/12/12 03:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
Next step - get a Chevy Small Block and call it done.
The problems that you are having happen to Ford and Chevy guys as well. I was a Chevy guy for 16 years and I've had MORE than my share of car frustrations.
I have a stash of known good working parts here that I'd be willing to share. I've found that even if my troubleshooting skills are out of whack, a collection of spare parts to test can really help! My Bro in law has a Holley 600 on his Duster 360. I have several points and electronic distributors, some plug wires, ether/starting fluid to test for vacuum leaks, a dial back timing light.....I don't live very far away. Let me know if you want my help.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227252
05/12/12 09:10 AM
05/12/12 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Mark I don't see or remember seeing anything about this ...
You have a stock point distributor wit ha pertronics installed , correct ? Have you made any changes it to it to limit mechanical advance ? If the answer is no you want to keep your initial timing to no more than 5 degrees because the distributor has too much mechanical advance in it ....
This of course is after you figure out the cam timing issue .
Yeah, stock distributor with pertronix ignitor installed... I have not changed anything else within the distributor. Ain't no way it would idle at anything close to 5 degrees unless something drastic changes
how about a SBC swap? LOL
Mark , stock distributors have 30-32 degrees of mechanical advance , you can't set initial to anymore than 5 or it's going to ping like crazy.
That's just a stock replacement set , not guarantee it's dots are correct, borrow a degree wheel and check it .
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227253
05/12/12 12:58 PM
05/12/12 12:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mark I don't see or remember seeing anything about this ...
You have a stock point distributor wit ha pertronics installed , correct ? Have you made any changes it to it to limit mechanical advance ? If the answer is no you want to keep your initial timing to no more than 5 degrees because the distributor has too much mechanical advance in it ....
This of course is after you figure out the cam timing issue .
Yeah, stock distributor with pertronix ignitor installed... I have not changed anything else within the distributor. Ain't no way it would idle at anything close to 5 degrees unless something drastic changes
how about a SBC swap? LOL
Mark , stock distributors have 30-32 degrees of mechanical advance , you can't set initial to anymore than 5 or it's going to ping like crazy.
That's just a stock replacement set , not guarantee it's dots are correct, borrow a degree wheel and check it .
John, at this point total timing is the least of his worries. Just adds to the confusion. He's going to require altering the mechanical advance when this idle issue is solved.
Those compression test numbers are horrible unless that thing is in the 7:1 range. If the engine was a 9:1 static it should have about 140-155psi if everything was installed correctly.
Mark, I had one of those timing sets that when the dots were lined up, my cam was 8 degrees retarded from where it should have been. I know that this is frustrating for you. Stay with it. The engine will run good once you get things right.
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